2014 Lou Hoover First Spouse Gold Coin

Today, August 14, 2014 at 12:00 Noon ET, the United States Mint began accepting orders for the 2014 Lou Hoover First Spouse Gold Coin. This represents the third release of the year for the one-half ounce 24 karat gold coin series honoring the spouses of the Presidents.

Lou Hoover First Spouse Gold Coin

The obverse design of the coin features a portrait of Lou Hoover designed by Susan Gamble and engraved by Michael Guadioso. Inscriptions read “Lou Hoover”, “In God We Trust”, “Liberty”, “2014 W”, “31st”, and “1929-1933”. This obverse portrait had been recommended by the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee, while the Commission of Fine Arts had recommended a different candidate.

The reverse design carries a depiction of a late 1920’s style radio set to represent Mrs. Hoover’s significance as the first First Lady to give a public radio address. The inscriptions around the outer edge read “United States of America”, “E Pluribus Unum”, and “$10 1/2 oz. .9999 Fine Gold”. Below the radio is the inscription “First Public Address April 19, 1929”. This reverse design was recommended by both the CCAC and CFA, who felt it would be more recognizable than the microphones shown in other alternatives.

The Lou Hoover First Spouse Gold Coins are initially priced at $845 for the uncirculated version and $865 for the proof version. These prices are based on a weekly average gold price within the $1,300 to $1,349.99 range. Pricing for the coins is subject to potential weekly adjustment.

A maximum mintage of 10,000 pieces has been established across the proof and uncirculated versions of the coin. Customer demand will determine the ratio of proof to uncirculated coins produced within the total maximum mintage.

Previous releases of the series for this year have honored Florence Harding and Grace Coolidge. Since the release date on July 10, the Harding coin has reached combined sales of 2,801 pieces. Since the release on July 17, the Coolidge coin has reached combined sales of 2,466 pieces.

The fourth release this year honoring Eleanor Roosevelt has a scheduled release date of September 4, 2014.

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Comments

  1. Brad (The Original) says

    This poor coin fell out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down. I had my wife come look at the picture of it the other day, and before she even knew what I thought about it she exclaimed “It looks like a man in a wig!”

    So, it looks like Eliza Johnson might have to give up her crown for the ugliest obverse of the series thus far.

  2. Fred McLaughlin says

    Checked my account at the mint today and my Kenndey gold proof was shipped today!

  3. Brad (The Original) says

    Yeah, it’s going to be more painful than usual to cough up the dough for the proof and uncirculated of this one! I’ll hold off for a bit, and hope that spot gold drops enough to get the price back to the $1250-$1,299.99 tier at least. However, if it continues to climb I will be forced to buy at the current price like I had to do for Harding and Coolidge yesterday. Tragic.

  4. Jon in CT says

    PFSWeb, the company which the Mint has hired to build its all-new numismatic products order management and fulfillment system, reported its Q2 financial results on Wednesday, August 13, 2014. In conjunction with the release of that financial data, PFSWeb also conducted an Earning Conference Call the same day beginning at 11 AM EDIT in order to discuss those results with interested stock analysts. A transcript of that conference call is available via http://www.nasdaq.com/aspx/call-transcript.aspx?StoryId=2420705&Title=pfsweb-s-pfsw-ceo-michael-willoughby-on-q2-2014-results-earnings-call-transcript . I’ve excerpted the portions in which the Mint contract is discussed.

    Mark Argento – Lake Street Capital Markets
    Good, thanks. Nice quarter by the way. Kind of digging in a little bit on some of the new implementations in particular the Mint, it sounds like that’s going to launch a little bit later than originally anticipated. Any thought — does that impact — materially impact your thoughts around initial revenue as we get closer to holidays or should it be relatively inconsequential? I don’t know how holiday centric the Mint business is.

    Michael Willoughby – PFSWeb CEO
    So I think as we indicated, the US Mint business is not expected to have the same kind of seasonal volatility that a lot of our direct to consumer relationships show. And so, we would expect that $17 million to $20 million of service fee revenue to be spread fairly evenly across a full year.

    And so, I think in the past we’ve indicated that we expected to see a full Q4 benefit from that relationship. And we still expect to see that with the late Q3 launch of the business.

    As you pointed out, it is a little bit later than we initially expected. At the front of the engagement, we had targeted a go live in early September. Now, the go live is towards the backend of the month, with the public launch probably even on October 1.

    That being said, the decision to move the date or to solidify the date at the back half of Q3 is based on the Mints’ timing. And doesn’t have any indication of any issues on our side with the implementation. So we’re very confident in the process so far, and the early results are indicating a very successful launch.

    I’ll let Tom talk about what we expect as far as kind of revenue in the back half of the year, not including Q4. Tom.

    Thomas Madden – PFSWeb CFO
    Yes. So with the few weeks delay in the US Mint activity, it does slightly impacts Q3 projections. But that’s been accounted for as we take a look at the projections for the whole calendar year in regards to the guidance that we provided in the call. So we’ve kind of take that into account.

    Operator

    At this time, that concludes our question and answer session. I would now like to turn the call back over to Mr. Willoughby, for closing remarks.

    Michael Willoughby – PFSWeb CEO
    Thank you, Anna. And I’d like to thank everyone that attended the call today. Maybe it goes without saying, but we’re incredibly excited with the positive developments in our business. And I’m personally looking forward to being back with you in November after a successful United States Mint launch.

    We’ve enjoyed talking about it as a future event now for almost a year. I’m even more excited to be able to talk about it as the past event. And we able to celebrate the launch with you.

    I didn’t mention this fact, but the US Mint has actually previewed the coming site, if you go to the USMint.gov website, on their homepage, they actually have a little banner that goes to YouTube and talks about the upcoming launch.

    So they’re already celebrating this as an upcoming event. And we’re looking forward to it as well. And we’re also looking forward to another thrilling holiday season. And we’ll certainly have more to say about that in November.

    So look forward to seeing you then. Thank you.

  5. Boz says

    I must admit not as appealing as some of the earlier ones. Still I locked in my first day of issue so that I can get the $100K that all first day gold will command in the post-Rosemont era.

    My vote for the hottest First Spouse is Alice Paul, and she wasn’t one.

  6. VaBeachEd says

    I received my 2 Gold Kennedy’s, ship separately, about 2 hours ago by UPS. One ordered at 12:02 and the other ordered at 12:08 p.m. on the 5 th.

  7. AkBob says

    There’s an article about the JFK coin on Kitco’s website and I don’t know how to cut and paste it to here, maybe Jon in Ct can do it for us :)))

  8. Louis says

    Kitco article:
    http://www.kitco.com/news/2014-08-14/Hype-For-Gold-Kennedy-Half-Dollar-Shows-Risk-Of-Numismatic-Coins-Dealers.html

    This is what happens when people who know nothing about coins write about them. It fails to even mention they are still available from the USM at just a little above last week’s price. And where did they get the $9K figure as most show releases are $4-5K? Is there really a lot of downside at $1240 or $1277 unless you believe gold will drop to $1k and never go up?

  9. thePhelps says

    The new Mint Web Site launch on October 1st… hasn’t anyone red flagged that day in the Government? I mean we don’t have any data relating to failed web sites launched by the US Govrnment on October 1st in the files anywhere do we?

    As far as this coin goes… I am glad I am only spending my money on the medals for the series…

  10. Sith says

    Read the Kitco article once again how can a major precious metal retailer not point out that the label cost 8K, but the coins is still selling for 1.3K. It looks like nobody has the “cojones” to take on the TPG’s label racket.

  11. Sith says

    @AkBob – It was posted at the end of the old thread and should have been reposted on this one.

  12. Jon in CT says

    Why do the geniuses who manage Mint sales still maintain the 5-per-household purchase limit for the K15 Kennedy gold coin? Haven’t sales of this coin slowed to a tiny trickle in recent days? What is that household limit supposed to accomplish now?

  13. Jon in CT says

    thePhelps wrote on August 14, 2014 at 4:23 PM:

    The new Mint Web Site launch on October 1st… hasn’t anyone red flagged that day in the Government? I mean we don’t have any data relating to failed web sites launched by the US Govrnment on October 1st in the files anywhere do we?

    October 1 is a red letter day in Federal government circles because it’s the first day of the new fiscal year. Although PFSWeb indicated it was initially planning to be ready weeks beforehand, the Mint seems adamant about the Oct 1 Go-Live. Maybe there are considerations involving the incumbent contractor, Novitex. Speaking of which, I can’t imagine how low morale must be falling in Plainville, IN. Note the address in this article matches the one on usmint.gov/customerservice/: http://www.ibj.com/novitex-plans-closure-155-job-losses-in-plainfield/PARAMS/article/48296
    Anyhow, most IT folks would prefer to make a massive switch like this on a weekend, preferably a long holiday weekend.

  14. art says

    How would you like to inspect your brand new gold Kennedy and find a half inch black hair in the capsule with the coin, which is what happened to me? A $1240 presentation to cherish.

  15. VA Bob says

    That Kitco article is laughable. Since when has a dealer made a recommendation that benefits the buyer?

    The article states:

    “… the hype is so great that some dealers are recommending collectors stay away from the secondary market at least until the market cools down.”

    Sure they don’t want you to buy from the Mint, they want you to wait until the only supply is those they scarfed up and can sell to you for the low, low price of $1500+.

  16. GoldFishin says

    @Art – if you look back at Michael’s article that shows the US Mint personnel encapsulating the JFK’s coins with no gloves(only rubber tips) and no hair protection and hovering over the coins with his arm before they are encapsulated I think it would explain how this can happen. I would be ticked! I hope mine are in better shape than some here have described.

    My JFK order 12:29 finally shipped today.

    @Pitt P. – I ordered the limit (5) and had no CC issues, I think it was you who was asking why maybe some later orders were being fulfilled before earlier orders. If you find out let me know. I was speculating maybe 5 coin orders were taking longer. I don’t really know why.

  17. VA Bob says

    Art – It must have been Tank Top guy assembling sets in one of Michaels photos. On the Brightside you should now be eligible for the “JFK with arm pit hair 1st follicle release” label. 😉

    I’d photograph it and post it to the Mints facebook site with a copy of Michaels photo (with his permission of course). Maybe it will get the Mints attention to their poor QA practices.

  18. AL says

    Order Date: 08/05/2014 at 12:59 PM

    Order Status: Your order request has been shipped.

    2014 KENNEDY ANNIVERSARY GOLD COIN 2 $1,240.00 $2,480.00 2 units shipped on 08/14/2014

  19. Ikaika says

    If you think Lou Hoover is ugly in this FS coin, wait until the Eleanor Roosevelt comes out. She (He) is the twin brother of Barney Fife.

  20. says

    Looking at the Last thread and seeing that MCM is offering $1,350.00 for In Hand Gold Kennedy. IF it is worth an extra $110 for him, then whatever he is doing with it, it has to be worth more than that to you. You can do the same, and eliminate him ( the middle man)…

    If you want my coin, you are going to have to pry it from my cold, dead hands…

  21. says

    For those keeping Score on the Silver BHOF coins, One Buyer purchased 200 Silver Proofs from One Seller Today for $14,409.60

    I don’t mind seeing someone Flip that knows how to do it within the scope of current market pricing and this Seller did just that…

  22. VA Rich says

    Refund on Orders Shipped Back – some fellow posters have commented in the past on how to get shipping refunded when sending items back for refund/replacement. Can anyone elaborate please?

    Do you print out your shipping receipt from the USPS website, enclose it in the return package attached to the return slip, and then ask for the refund on shipping? Does that work?

  23. Ikaika says

    MCM is paying $110/hr for the work done by many of us. The big dealers paid some homeless $20 to stay several hours in line. I see lawsuits coming.

  24. Sith says

    @Jon in CT – Hopefully the household limit will keep the mintage down, at the very least it ensures that nobody can place a massive order that leaves collectors waiting until 2016 to get their coin(s). FYI you asked a question and it was a valid one I have simply responded to it.

  25. gary says

    Art you have the basis for a great set of gold Kennedy coins “The Follicle Collection”: head, eyelash, eyebrow, nose and armpit hair. The set of 5 should easily top 100K on Ebay!

  26. Dave says

    VA Rich
    Call mint CS and they will explain in detail. Take careful notes. Remember to insure the return package. In a separate envelope include the original USPS receipt ( make a copy for your records.) , and a request letter with your order number. I always include a copy of the original invoice which comes in the box the mint shipped to me. I think this gets forwarded to Treasury Dept. They will reimburse both the postage and the insurance. You will get a letter from Treasury stating they are processing your request. Do not have a heart attack – you are NOT being audited ( my reaction when I saw the envelope from Treasury on my first mint return.). A week or so later you will get a check from Treasury.

  27. Clark says

    Would it have killed the Mint to take a little artistic license with Lou and make her even slightly feminine? Members from both advisory committees need a little direction from the three of us who have to collect these things. And, finally, what was Herbert thinking?

  28. MN says

    I print out a USPS Priority shipping label online then copy paste the details onto a Word doc with a Return Postage request typed below. I print it out and enclose it with the returned coin/s. You will receive a check in the mail from the US Treasury but it takes awhile. Here is a link to use to print your label (helps to have a small weight scale so you know how much your package weighs).

    https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_ship-now

    The 3 BHoF Prf Silver coins ordered 4/9 right before the Wait List and received today…one was a rattler with the coin able to easily rotate and it had a mark or two (was turned sideways), the other 2 coins had rough rim/reed jags @5/6 area as well as other marks. I requested replacement, asking them to send NEW coins, not ones that have been returned so I may get a refund!

    I am a bit scared to open the 2 Kennedy Gold that are to arrive tomorrow.

  29. Jon in CT says

    Sith wrote on August 14, 2014 at 6:06 PM:

    @Jon in CT – Hopefully the household limit will keep the mintage down, at the very least it ensures that nobody can place a massive order that leaves collectors waiting until 2016 to get their coin(s).

    I understand how the household limit was helpful at the launch — it prevented most dealers from acquiring significant stock before individuals could get their single coins. But keeping the limits in place now seems to be a slap in the face to those scrupulous ethical coin dealers who cannot acquire sufficient inventory because they abide by the Mint’s purchase restrictions.

  30. VA Bob says

    MN – good luck getting new BHoF $1 coins now. I believe they are at the point where they will ship returns until they stick. Not promising for the folks that buy those sealed boxes, coins sight unseen.

  31. MN says

    My order last week was missing 3 of 4 UNC Silver BHoF…they are in stock/reserved with CC pinged but I imagine they will be “returned coins” as well. Buying sealed boxes or leaving boxes sealed has its risks, including that coins could be missing! The paper work said 4 coins but only 1 was in it. I don’t expect much if anything from the Mint as I see what is going on.

  32. VA Bob says

    Dealers couldn’t careless about ordering more than five from the mint now. By the time they would get them, ordering now, the rush would be over. No small dealer is going to want to have 50 of these in inventory at Mint prices tying up cash assets, when they can sucker some poor Joe that needs cash for 20% below melt. The big dealers that can con the uninformed on late night TV might be interested though. Let them stew for awhile and see how the common man lives. See how interested they are in September with no limits.

  33. VA Bob says

    MN – I recall your comment on the missing coins. I believe everyone would be interested in how that situation plays out for you.

  34. stephen m says

    @US Mint, We don’t want rejected coins that have been sent back to you! Please do not ship a returned coin to me or anyone else. Thank you.

  35. Bob R says

    The photos I have seen of President Hoover with his dog King Tut sure looks better than Lou. After the FS is finished I would like to see a new gold coin series of presidential dogs….

  36. Wes says

    The TPG’s also handle the coins unless something has changed. I don’t think they wear gloves when handling coins they are grading.

  37. Hawkster says

    Art,

    In regard to finding that half inch black hair in your Kennedy gold coin capsule: a sloughed off armpit or chest hair could be the culprit, as the West Point facility allows its coin handlers to wear tank tops. Check out the photos that Michael provided when he recently visited the WP mint. There is a clear image of a male employee in a red tank top encapsulating the coins.

  38. Steve says

    Got my 2 gold Kennedy’s today. Beautiful and terrific packaging. Off to NGC for ER grading. Will most likely flip one and keep the other.

  39. Hawkster says

    Steve,

    Be sure to put small ID marks on your two Kennedys so you know that you are getting back the same ones you are sending off to the grading company. You can’ t be too careful when dealing with grading companies. O.K., I’m just kidding–at least in regard to putting ID marks on the coins.

  40. Bob R says

    Maybe that hair should be sent in for DNA testing, and beware for Ebola, after all it appears not to be a clean facility for such valuable assets being produced.

  41. Steve says

    Hawkster, good point! We all know MCM is in bed with NGC. If I get to PR69’s back, I’ll be very suspicious.

  42. Jerry Diekmann says

    Brad the Original – She’s not THAT bad looking – that was a 1920s hair style. What has happened is that you have got caught up in having to have a complete collection. Pity the poor collectors who have to pay $$$ for a 1916D Winged Liberty head dime just so their collection is complete. The whole Presidents series was a mistake and a bad idea from the beginning, and the First Spouse set could therefore only also become a mistake, especially since it was issued in gold. Half of the presidents we have had were mediocre or worse, and not worth remembering, much less commemorating. None of the first spouses were such monumental figures that they would deserve to be remembered on a coin, except perhaps Eleanor Roosevelt and Jacqueline Kennedy. IMO the FS series will wind up in the same category as the American Arts medallions of 1980-84, not ever going to be worth much more than the market price of gold. That’s a lot of gold you have tied up that will probably never be worth what you paid for it. Like I said, one of the bad ideas from the Congress and the Mint.

  43. VA Bob says

    Steve – good luck, but I believe Art will have you beat with the First Follicle sold JFK gold. All others pale in comparison. 😉

  44. Jerry Diekmann says

    The Hitler parody is one of the funniest videos in a long time! Congratulations to those who created it!

  45. VA Rich says

    Dave / MN – appreciate the insight, all set – thanks! Sending three back – the Obverses with the gold blotch/smear and scratch, and the reverse one which turned out to be a smashed star that appeared shiny or black depending on the light. The other one with the tick mark on the first “T” in States was barely observable and the rest of the coin looks great so decided to keep that one.

    Louis – that video is awesome, brought me to tears! I could see some of us out here on MNB rolling playing to a tee. Who ever made that my hats off to ya!

  46. Dave says

    Can’t wait to see what the brilliant FS design team does to Jackie K. It had better be good or there will be a revolt. 1 st prize for FS beauty, for sure. And I am a conservative. Well, by today’s standards, so was JFK!

  47. stephen m says

    No wonder my 2 unc silver baseball coins haven’t shipped. The mint can’t ship until 2 are returned as rejects? Can Michael, Louis or someone close to the Mint verify one way or the other what the Mint actually does with returned coins? CS tends to tell you what you want to hear. We wait and wait, now I have to wonder what the deal is. I seriously would just as soon not order a coin from them if I have to take a chance on getting a returned one or a reject.

  48. Boz says

    Presidential dogs on a 1/10 oz gold series. I like that idea and hope it gets traction. Or how about a US muscle car series on the back of the Linoln cent. After all, Abe was named after the car in the firt place, and it would be a fitting tribute. Chopped, lowered, and the mint could make its foray into colored coins. Mint could finally make a profit on all those billions of cents it has been producing at below the value of zinc.

    “Pappy said son you’re gonna drive me to drinkin if you don’t stop drivin that hot rod Lincoln…”
    That would be the new national logo embossed around the edge

  49. Erik H says

    I just noticed that MCM’s photos of the gold half show the “W” mint mark on the obverse not the reverse. Did somebody photoshop the wrong coin?

  50. Hawkster says

    We need to get to the “root” of what caused the hair to be encapsulated. The question remains as to whether Art will keep the hair or “part” with it. I’m familiar with the enhanced hair Kennedy proof, but this is taking it to the next level.

  51. VA Bob says

    VA Rich – Put a tape or label across the capsules and write “Returned” on in, then put them in then put them in the presentation box with the label facing down. Maybe if we all start doing it, the Mint will catch on an examine returns before shipping them out again to some other unsuspecting collector.

  52. GoldFishin says

    @Steve- are you the same Steve that posted this? Were you just trying to get other folks to cancel or did you have a change of heart, obviously.

    Steve says

    August 7, 2014 at 7:27 am

    I hope the big sellers lose their tails on this. This whole process has really soured it for me. I just cancelled my 2 from 12:15. I’m out fellas, good luck.

  53. Jon in CT says

    Jerry Diekmann wrote on August 14, 2014 at 8:59 PM:

    IMO the FS series will wind up in the same category as the American Arts medallions of 1980-84, not ever going to be worth much more than the market price of gold. That’s a lot of gold you have tied up that will probably never be worth what you paid for it.

    Early last year the experts at PCGS published their list of the 100 most important modern (post 1965) coins at http://www.pcgs.com/top100/. In the PCGS list, uncirculated First Spouse coins occupied 9 of those 100 spots:
    54. 2009 Letitia Tyler
    66. 2011 Lucretia Garfield
    67. 2011 Lucy Hayes
    68. 2008 Martin Van Buren’s Liberty
    69. 2008 Andrew Jackson’s Liberty
    70. 2009 Julia Tyler
    71. 2010 James Buchanan’s Liberty
    89. 2009 Margaret Taylor

    But I defer judgement about the value and importance of First Spouse coins to our progressive resident expert over those clowns at PCGS.

  54. VA Bob says

    Hawkster – Too funny with those puns. Mine arrives Monday, and I’m hoping JFK doesn’t have an afro.

  55. VA Bob says

    Erik H – The mint mark is probably on the reverse because of the dual year on the obverse. The Mint probably wanted to keep the design as clean as possible. Right up there with the Peace dollar, one of my personal favorites.

  56. Louis says

    Re: BHOF gold- I was talking to a colleague of mine, who said in Rosemont some dealers had stacks of gold BHOF no one was interested in (not surprising, right, when everyone is going JFK-crazy?). Anyway, he said dealers were offering melt for them, and he sees this as some kind of market indicator. I said, well, on e-Bay prices have been pretty stable for a while and you can get in the $650-700 range for them. He said e-Bay is not a good indicator of the market. Well, which market? retail? wholesale? Since when is dealer scam offers the basis for “the market”? Our price guides or dealer prices a better marker? I think not. They tend to be too high. E-Bay is the most accurate retail guide if you look at trends over time and reflect what the average Joe can get if he sells directly to a collector, not wholesale to a dealer. Any thoughts?

  57. Louis says

    I can’t take any credit for the Hitler vid. Someone at another blog that will not be named posted it, and I am not sure if he is the one who created it, but it is brilliant for sure.

  58. Boz says

    Coin #36 on your list was Kennedy with Accenteted Hair. Looks like you got a real keeper there dude!

  59. VA Bob says

    Louis – I agree with your assessment of the market. No one can really dispute what a collect will pay when the answer is there real time for all to see. I do believe the big TV dealers skew the bay price though, since they are high volume.

    IMO it’s going to take a bit of time for the BHoF to surpass it’s saturation point. Sure it’s a nice coin, popular theme, unique design, and that is why it did as well as it has. But if one looks back at the $5 gold commems the last few years (or even longer) the mintages have been around 20K more or less depending on popularity of the topic. I believe if you can average them out that gives the most realistic picture of the size of the core gold commem buyers. Anything beyond is gravy for the Mint.

  60. Bob R says

    @ Hawkster If that is the true enhanced hair Kennedy Gold, priceless.
    Boz you are spot on with that hod rod Lincoln.
    I really believe to go along with the presidential dog series would be to finish up with the presidential “my secret series” in a 1/4 ounce gold. Example the Kennedy-Monore, Eisenhower- Summersby, Harding-Tea Pot Dome, Grant-Jack Daniels, Washington-my slave girl, ( Adams never owned slaves) Jefferson and down the list (excluding J Q Adams, Millard Fillmore, Franklin Pierce, James Buchanan, Abraham Lincoln) up to Ulysses S. Grant. Let’s keep the Grant -JD. This would be a really interesting series, the artist will love it. Americana at its best.

  61. Jerry Diekmann says

    Jon – who do you want to bet on – a collector for 50 years or “those clowns at PCGS”? I think the TPG was a good idea when it started, but it has gone way way overboard and is sinking the hobby, at least the hobby I remembered. I put almost no stock in a TPG slab, and zero stock in one with a label. These will go the way as baseball cards, Dutch tulips, beenie babies, and cabbage patch dolls. I never make a mistake – I thought I did once, but I was wrong!

  62. Jerry Diekmann says

    Bob and the “secret series” – Harding and Teapot Dome was no secret – read up on his mistresses – one of them took him to the cleaners. FDR had mistresses too – probably a lot of the presidents had mistresses or flings – they just weren’t reported back in those days. Washington, Jefferson and Jackson had slaves – probably some of the lesser known antebellum presidents did too, but most of them are so uninteresting it’s hardly worth the time to research the subject.

  63. Hawkster says

    Bob R,

    With all the accolades that the enhanced hair gold Kennedy is receiving, I think we are making it difficult for Art to decide what to do. So Art, is it a keeper? Or, is it a case of “hair” today and gone tomorrow?

  64. Bob R says

    Hawkster

    Art should hold on to that coin, to return could be possibly the mistake of a lifetime.

  65. Bob R says

    Jerry

    Maybe it should just be “the presidential scandals series” that would work with the FS and Dog series.

  66. Erik H says

    VA Bob, the mint mark is supposed to be on the reverse for the gold issue (I think that it should have been on the reverse for all the special issues), however MCM’s website shows the mint mark on the obverse.

  67. stephen m says

    “First Reject”, “Early Reject”, “Rejected” all can be new labels. I’ve only sent back one coin to the Mint but I like the idea of marking the coin, capsule and or packaging to let anyone and everyone know it’s a reject and plan to do so in the future. “Pain in the @SS & rejected” label. I digress.

  68. Hawkster says

    Simon,

    Good point. When it gets passed down to his heirs, will it be a case of splitting hairs or, in this case, splitting a hair?

  69. Bob R says

    Lou Hoover artist impression,
    Strong check bone, full bushy eyebrows, small lips, stern expression, and adams apple to boot, maybe Herbert had something in his closet?

  70. Tinto says

    All the posts about folks receiving rejects from the Mint has made me change the way I normally buy from the Mint. From now on it’s gonna be on the first day of release (funds permitting of course) for every single product I want to buy .. I don’t want someone’s rejects complete with their body hairs .. yuk.

    I think the UNC $5 Generals I bought from the Mint in late November was probably someone’s reject too. There was a noticible shiny spot on the obverse rim looked like a rim nick but by the time I decided to return it the Mint had sold out. So I kept it .. at least no body hairs ..

    Does the Mint have a public written policy about what they do with returns/rejects? I would be miffed if say Amazon had sold me a product someone had returned and Amazon had kept quiet about it.

  71. ABC says

    @Tinto,
    That hair on the gold JFK that was mentioned here was not a reject/returned coin. It came from the mint packaging department with that hair included. It’s still too early to be receiving someone’s returned coin. By the way, I’d rather receive one that had a strand of hair on it rather than one that has a rim nick on it because you can open the capsule and remove the hair, but you aren’t ever going to be able to remove a rim nick.

  72. says

    @Louis, Yes I have some Strong Thoughts. The bay (and hopefully others in the future) are the Modern Coin Dealers. Your Grandfather main communication method was Mail, Your father communicated with the Phone, Most here are comfortable with Email and some Facebook. Young people communicate with Text or Twitter. What will be the New way in the future?
    The point being, Things change and evolve. For may things you do not need brick and mortar anymore. Dealer are threatened by the bay and a Successful Mint. How many links to articles have been posted here that Trash the Gold Kennedy? Why are Dealers trashing the Kennedy? This is survival to old blue blood coin people. For years they have made a Living off of Telling you what a coin is worth and Selling said coin to you. Now all you have to do is Google said coin and find either viable auction sites or the bay that can get you an accurate price guide. Dealers and Blue bloods Hate the BHOF coins and they Hate the Gold Kennedy and they will Hate the 2015 UHR. Coin collecting is a zero sum game and If (as will be the case) the BHOF and Gold Kennedy and 2015 UHR get a foot hold then that takes $$ away from the brick and mortar coin dealers. They cant make $$ of off something you can buy directly from the Mint.

    The More successful the US Mint becomes with New offerings the More you are going to here dealers squawk .

  73. Jerry Diekmann says

    Bob R – Great idea – the “Presidential scandals” series could be 1/2 oz. gold coins and the “Presidential dogs” series could be on the 1/10 oz. gold coins. And just like the FS coins, if the President had more than one dog, than the Mint would issue a coin for each dog. What about cats or birds? And for the 1/4 oz. gold coins, I would suggest a “Presidential failures” series, which would require multiple coins for some presidents. The “Presidential scandals” coins for Harding and Nixon could be made in 1 oz. size since their scandals were twice as bad as anything any other President ever did, at least in terms of scandals.

    Also, all this talk about Art’s hairy coin is simply “hairlarious”!

  74. Jerry Diekmann says

    Bob R – if what you say about Herbert Hoover is true, it wouldn’t be the first Hoover to have something in his closet – J. Edgar comes to mind and his friend “Clyde”.

  75. Tinto says

    @ABC

    I was speaking also about folks such as @MN here receiving obvious Proof BHOF silver $1 rejects and the discussion that ensued. It is quite possible later coins might contain non mint personnels’ follicles, who knows? As for the hairs it would depend on whether it is resting against the surface or tightly pressed/crammed against the proof field and whether those hairs are oily (esp against a silver surface, not just talking about gold JFK) . Just my taste folks.

    As for the rim nick that was a decision of mine to keep fully knowing at the time that it can’t go away.

  76. joe says

    The first thing I thought when I saw the Lou Hoover coins was that the OGP should be a paper bag.

  77. Louis says

    Ouch, Joe. I guess you won’t be winning any awards from the womens’ benevolent society. You know we need to bring in more females, right?
    Jokes aside, in her day Lou Hoover rode around in a seriously impressive cadillac that no woman at the time dared to be caught in, and she was a force of nature. She was in some ways the first woman’s lib defender.

  78. Small time collector says

    the hair report reminds me of a commemorative proof silver dollar from the sf mint I bought in the mid 90’s, complete with a perfect greasy thumb print across the face of the coin. Mint took it back no problem, but, they did want to know if it was ‘legible’. I didn’t know if it was legible, yet it was easy to see the whorl and it was not smeared.
    Now, about the gold kennedys, and inferences of returns, issues, I sure hope mine are nice, I’d be very bummed if they are recycled rejects. I planned to leave the boxes un-opened, awaiting future purchases to warrant a new membership and submission of several coins for grading.
    I also wonder if there are some people posting here trying to decrease interest in the coins to affect production. This, especially in view of the mention of removing the “family” limit.
    Why is it that profiteers have to make a hobby become worrisome and make participants (me for one) feel the hobby is going to be difficult to enjoy in the future.
    It’s not a commodity, it a nice anniversary coin. Please quit manipulating.

  79. bg35765 says

    The phrase “a face made for radio” works well here considering the reverse of the coin.

    Looking at some pictures she wasn’t that bad though. They did her no favors at all.

    Frances Cleveland with modern hair, clothes, and makeup would win the contest for First Spouse Hottie. She was 21 when she married 49 year old Grover Cleveland and they announced their engagement 5 days before the wedding. Imagine the media reaction if that happened today!

  80. gbotz says

    Check out what the 2014 Kennedy 50th Ann. High Relief P&D 2-piece Half Dollar Graded
    Sets are selling for at the CV and HSN

    CV
    2014 Kennedy 50th Ann. High Relief P&D NGC SP66 $399.96 2-piece Half Dollar Set
    2014 Kennedy 50th Ann. High Relief P&D NGC SP67 $499.96 2-piece Half Dollar Set
    2014 Kennedy 50th Ann. High Relief P&D NGC SP68 $999.96 2-piece Half Dollar Set

    HSN
    2014 Kennedy 50th Ann. High Relief P&D ANACS SP69 $99.95 2-piece Half Dollar Set
    (We all know his name at HSN, said he sent 5,000 sets in for grading and got zero 70’s back.)

  81. Hawkster says

    Jerry D,

    I know all this talk about Art’s hairy coin is hairlarious. But we can’t “brush” it off lightly. The WP Mint needs to be “combed” for evidence to find the culprit.

  82. thePhelps says

    Rich…it is getting close – since it isn’t just back ordered it is wait listed now.

  83. Sith says

    Jon in CT – You have a valid point, but it look months for the Mint to raise the household limit for the UHR, and IMHO they only did so because they got stuck with inventory. If a dealer is playing by the rules while his\her peers are not then the dealer is at a disadvantage. Unfortunately unethical behavior has been reaping large rewards lately

  84. merryxmasmrscrooge says

    Teddy ROOsevelt
    WOOdrow Wilson
    COOL Calvin COOLDidge
    Herbert HOOver
    Franklin Delano ROOsevelt
    YahOO!
    GOOgle
    Ebenezer ScrOOge

    What do these words have in common?

  85. Clark says

    Louis–I’ll bet those Rosemont dealers with stacks of gold BHoFs weren’t selling them for melt. I share Cag’s strong opinion about those living dinosaurs who used to own coin collecting before the internet opened it up to competition and free flowing information. They invented the Queen Mother of all flips: buy for under melt and sell for well over spot. And, they hate ebay and e-commerce for exposing their inside game.

    The dealer who told your friend that ebay isn’t a good measure of a coin’s value ignores the accepted (and legal) definition of fair market value: “The price a knowledgeable, willing, and unpressured buyer would probably pay to a knowledgeable, willing, and unpressured seller in the market.” Local dealers leverage pressure during sales and purchases to their advantage, usually at the expense of the less sophisticated walk-in customer. Transparency and tracking make e-commerce an almost perfect measure of FMV.

    IMO, today most local coin dealers and many coin show Hawksters are little more than unlicensed pawnbrokers. At least the latter must deal with a more informed clientele, but when they get back to the shop, watch out.

  86. Pittsburgh P says

    For those waiting for JFK gold orders to ship my 1:10pm has received its tracking #… So it seems they are finally working on the second hour!

  87. says

    Finally put my hands on my gold Kennedy this morning. Looks absolutely fantastic. Presentation box is fantastic, and the coin itself seems absolutely flawless. If it wasn’t for the ANA fiasco, this would have easily been the best release of the year!

  88. Small time collector says

    ditto here (tracking # issues) on my 1:22 hopefully they won’t be recycled offerings, and hopefully first strikes were at the bottom of the piles. I know soon after my order (which for the first half hour said back ordered) the mint soon changed the back ordered status on the mint web page.

  89. says

    Gold prices Currently under $1,300.00. For those that paid Retail of $1,277.50….My condolences…You should have been reading the Best blog…

  90. Ikaika says

    @ A&L Futures

    Let’s see if the $1300 support level for gold will hold this time around. It has been tested many times.

  91. Ikaika says

    @cagcrisp

    I think most purchased before the increase. Maybe the ANA label people are probably one of the few that might have purchased at the price you mentioned 🙂

  92. Sith says

    @cagcrisp – Anyone who bought at the higher price could cancel then reorder at the lower price, if does go back down.

  93. VA Rich says

    thePhelps – previous post to your comment regarding the sell back, I actually called them and couple of others to see if they wanted a couple as I was having a little buyers remorse esp. with what I saw on those videos. They weren’t interested, and wanted no more part of the offering. When asked what they’re take on it was, 2 reps said I would dump it as quickly as I could. And we see the email from yesterday, something changed. Not sure what.
    The coin vault is advertising ER 70’s for $1,699.., that’s not in the neighborhood that I would have expected. I think a lot of the margin on these have been squeezed out and will continue to be squeeze out. The ANA release labels are coming down in price already on fleabay and almost saturated with them. The market will soon be flooded with the FS/FR/ER coins starting yesterday.
    I’m glad I really like the coin and bullish on its long-term potential, as I personally believe it’s very much a buy and hold ‘investment’ at this point.

  94. Pittsburgh P says

    Small time collector mine went strait to in stock and reserved so I guess between my order and yours was when the 40,000 was gone… Until the 20,000 cancelations 😉
    I’d say its a safe bet we won’t get recycled or returned JFK golds either since the first online orders only got theirs yesterday…

    SKM either you have a hold on your account or you should call the Mint to see whats up

  95. VA Rich says

    Glad I didn’t speak too soon –

    MCM just sent an email out with them all listed – clads and golds…

  96. VA Rich says

    Sucks to be a flipper of JFK golds –

    2014-W Gold 50c Kennedy 50th Anniversary High Relief NGC PF70 Ultra Cameo ER Proof 70 UC Early Releases ***SIGNATURE LABEL*** ***EXPECTED SHIPPING BEGINS 08/21*** $1,648.88

  97. joseph says

    Teddy ROOsevelt
    WOOdrow Wilson
    COOL Calvin COOLDidge
    Herbert HOOver
    Franklin Delano ROOsevelt
    YahOO!
    GOOgle
    Ebenezer ScrOOge

    What do these words have in common?

    nOthing, a big nOthing. LOL

  98. simon says

    VAR : 2014-W Gold 50c $1,648.88

    I might agree but have to state that a $400+ premium is not small peanuts –
    the price is still very highly inflated and $400 can purchase a lot of coins ! .

  99. Ikaika says

    @ Sith

    “I hate to say it but the Zombucks look better then Lou Hoover”

    Most “things” would look better than Lou Hoover FS. On a more serious note, did any of you collecting the Zombucks series noticed the current prices for the Walker coin? I purchased 3 of those from PM when sales started at $21. On that auction site they are selling for around $60. And some people criticized us for buying that silly coin series 😉

  100. Eddie says

    Does anyone know where I can get an empty OPG box of the Gold Kennedy Half. I would really like to get a couple of these?
    Do you think the prices for the 50th anniversary halves that are graded will come down and if so how long 1 year or 2 years?
    I can’t tell that much of a difference by looking at them and are the 1998s sms High Relief? What I am trying to ask is if you took them out of their capsules how would you tell the difference if mixed with the unc set?

  101. thePhelps says

    Eddie – the boxes will probably start showing up for sale @ the resellers before long. I think they might end up being a pretty popular item as well.

  102. Eddie says

    Why didn’t the Mint put the mint mark on the reverse of these coins? That would of really helped matters.

  103. gumbyen says

    My gold Kennedy order was placed at 12:35. Just talked with the mint and they said they could ship today. Maybe Monday but surely by Tuesday…

  104. Jon in CT says

    Eddie wrote on August 15, 2014 at 1:22 PM:

    Why didn’t the Mint put the mint mark on the reverse of these coins? That would of really helped matters.

    Um, that’s exactly where the Mint put the mint mark. You’d better look more closely at the reverse.

  105. says

    IJust hand delivered my First Gold Kennedy. The man that received the coin is a bank president and Was my boss for 21 years. Not only was he my boss but he was my mentor. He graduated in HS in 1964 so when I saw the dual date I knew that he would like the coin. His birthday is Monday so on the way out of his office I said “When someone asks you what you got for your birthday, you can reply, I got a Half Dollar”

  106. Eddie says

    Samuel thank you. That was a big help.
    I guess the Mint didn’t have time to gloss the boxes. Kind of strange the way they did this one.

  107. SKM says

    @Pittsburgh P – Thanks for the advice.

    The website status has order processing. The CSR states the order on hold, according to HQs. Oy Vey.

  108. Eddie says

    Jon in CT I must have received 5 bad sets because all 5 set have the mint mark on the obverse of the coins both P&D.

  109. Sith says

    @Eddie

    Yes other posters here have already indicated that they are already starting to come down due to the high amount of the coins being graded at PF70.

    “Do you think the prices for the 50th anniversary halves that are graded will come down and if so how long 1 year or 2 years?”

  110. Jon in CT says

    Eddie wrote on August 15, 2014 at 1:48 PM:

    Jon in CT I must have received 5 bad sets because all 5 set have the mint mark on the obverse of the coins both P&D.

    Your original post was vague at best and I was looking at this picture of the newly-issued K15 Kennedy half dollar reverse:
    http://catalog.usmint.gov/wcsstore/ConsumerDirect/images/catalog/en_US/K15_zoom_alt_1.jpg

    I guess you were talking about some other Kennedy half dollars which nobody has been discussing here, before you. Carry on.

  111. VA Rich says

    Simon – you’re correct, though in the context that I was speaking, that price point puts a helluva compression on ebay sales as they so exist now, not going into the details, but it does.., & not favorable to those currently flipping – my point and yeah I’m somewhat obscure at times -sorry for that, is that the price point is low IMO given the hype and it narrows the range for the quick sale, which is good for buy and hold folks like the majority of MNB fans, including you & I.

    Eddie – I agree, the boxes are really nice, nothing beats real hard wood! If you have OGP or have some graded yourself, I think prices will only increase at 1 or 2 years out – but that’s my speculation. Though I do think it’s in everyone’s best interest to cancel this dog! The HMS Titanic hasn’t met her match until this sink’n ship! ;7

  112. Eddie says

    Jon In CT
    You were right about my post that is what I get for thinking one thing while typing another. Jon I still wonder why on the 2 coin set the P&Ds why the Mint didn’t put the mint marks on these 2 coins on the reverse so they you would be able to tell the difference between these and the regular annual unc coin sets. Jon I hope this explains it better sorry but I sometimes get ahead of myself when it comes to typing.

  113. Eddie says

    I would love to be able to buy a set of SP70s or at the very least a set of SP69s. I just really do not want to pay $200.00 – $300.00 for a set that only cost $10.00 to begin with.

  114. VA Rich says

    Eddie – please read this and take it to heart – I want you to be successful at this hobby we so much in enjoy – here are some MNB rules to live by –

    1. Read MNB Daily and Every Comment – there are so many wise and experienced collectors out here that I learned from and while they may not always be direct in their message, there’s a lot of wisdom from what is said.

    2. Print out sections to comments if it helps to reflect upon later – trust me, I got my butt handed to me more times than I can count a few years back by many that still post here, like from that fosnock guy (whose opinion I still very much respect), I still have some print outs from this blog and articles from Louis that I reflect on so I can make a wise and informed decision.

    3. Don’t respond to Jon in CT – while I actually think he is a very intelligent collector, I enjoy his very informative links, and I personally think he could make a HUGE contribution to our collective group here on MNB. Unfortunately, he desires to act like a rattlesnake, & while you may have the most sincere intentions/questions.., you never know when you’re going to be bitten.

    4. Follow 1-3 above, and then Trust Your Gut – Buy what excites you.., otherwise stick with an ETF. At the end of the day, you own the decision. With that said, while I only had 2 out of 5 JFKs that I was happy with.., it is a pretty F’n cool coin! Good luck Mate!

  115. AkBob says

    Eddie – There more than likely won’t be any SP70’s and if there are they will be somewhere between $5000-$20,000!!!! Maybe up to $50K or even 100K. I know it sounds like I’m kidding but I’m not. A SP69 set will be minimum $2000 maybe a much as $5K and could be more. I believe there are only a handful of SP69’s. I am with you, for a $10 set, how could a Modern Coin)s) go for that kind of money. It’s a rarity, conditional rarity though not mintage rarity. An SP68 set will be the higher grade for this set and those are commanding a premium even! Good Luck I know you can get a ANACS graded set in SP69 ($99) from HSN but I have a feeling that those would grade lower if they were graded by PCGS or NGC. I would be very curious to see what the population reports are with PCGS and NGC on this 2 Coin set in SP69. I’m fairly sure they are VERY low if any (I do think there may be a few in NGC but not sure) The Coin Vault had a handful that were graded SP69 (w/NGC) up to where the FINAL grader had to do his/her grading approval and the FINAL grader was at the ANA show and they had to wait to see if they would pass the FINALIZER for the SP69 grade and that was a week ago or so and I haven’t seen them sell any SP69’s and never heard what the outcome was for those handful of possible SP69 sets. The SP69 sets are few and far between. This is information that I have seen, heard and/or read.

  116. says

    I don’t know whether you guys saw it or not, but the Mint is looking at doing a Dime sized 1/10 oz. 24 ct Gold in 2016 for the 100 year anniversary of the Liberty Dime. Also looking at a 3/4 oz 24 ct Gold Walking Liberty half dollar in 2016.

    So……For those that were hoping the Gold Kennedy would be the Last and Only 3/4 half dollar……Say it ain’t so….

  117. thePhelps says

    Cag…thanks I hadn’t read either of those items. I for one am more interested in the Walking Liberty gold coin than I ever was interested in the Kennedy… now the problem is do I fork out the cash to buy a Kennedy and go for a type set or not…

    I’d also like to commend you on your extreme generosity… I would like to think I mentored someone at some point in my career that I would deserve that type of reward… the most I can probably ever expect would be a beer someday. 🙂

  118. fmtransmitter says

    3. Don’t respond to Jon in CT – while I actually think he is a very intelligent collector, I enjoy his very informative links, and I personally think he could make a HUGE contribution to our collective group here on MNB. Unfortunately, he desires to act like a rattlesnake, & while you may have the most sincere intentions/questions.., you never know when you’re going to be bitten.
    l,mao, yup agreed

  119. fmtransmitter says

    he’s got bi polar disease i think. needs some vitamin D and medication adjustment..

  120. fmtransmitter says

    cagcrisp says
    AUGUST 15, 2014 AT 1:31 PM

    IJust hand delivered my First Gold Kennedy. The man that received the coin is a bank president and Was my boss for 21 years. Not only was he my boss but he was my mentor. He graduated in HS in 1964 so when I saw the dual date I knew that he would like the coin. His birthday is Monday so on the way out of his office I said “When someone asks you what you got for your birthday, you can reply, I got a Half Dollar”
    good stuff cag…can i become your mentor? j/k…

  121. Levi says

    cagcrisp says
    ” the Mint is looking at doing a Dime sized 1/10 oz. 24 ct Gold in 2016 for the 100 year anniversary of the Liberty Dime. Also looking at a 3/4 oz 24 ct Gold Walking Liberty half dollar in 2016.

    So……For those that were hoping the Gold Kennedy would be the Last and Only 3/4 half dollar……Say it ain’t so….”
    ———————–
    I like the sound of that! I know will say it’s a bad idea. I hope they produce a series of gold half dollars.
    Don’t announce it will be a series, just keep churning them out every couple of years!
    Cag, if you don’t mind, please let us know where to read more about this. Thx

  122. Hawkster says

    Cagcrisp,

    We might see a 2016 gold Walker in celebration of its 100th anniversary? When I’m 100, I’ll settle for an aluminum walker.

  123. Tinto says

    @cagcrisp

    I read about the gold walker on another site too, along with the mercury dime. The Standing Liberty quarter in gold might not make the cut. but that is the coin I would buy, esp. if they make it in high relief.

  124. Blair J Tobler says

    My budget doesn’t allow me to buy gold coins, but if they’re gonna do a 1/10th oz Liberty/Mercury Dime in gold, I’m gonna start saving for one now. It’s hands-down my favorite design.

  125. says

    I would absolutely love a gold winged liberty/mercury dime. I’ve been waiting for a decent mercury commemorative for a very long time and was unhappy when the Palladium program died before it could get started. Count me in 100% for something like this.

    Heck, they could do a whole set containing multiple gold and silver finishes for the mercury dime, if they do the gold dimes in 1/10th ounce size, similar to what’s been done with the Kennedy half dollar.

    I would like a gold walking liberty too, but not nearly as much as some sort of big commemorative set to celebrate the mercury dime.

  126. Pittsburgh P says

    SKM no problem… It happens, glad you got it cleared up.

    VaRich great advice! Lmao… But all solid advice – agreed cancel this dog if you still can

  127. joseph says

    cagcrisp says
    AUGUST 14, 2014 AT 5:55 PM

    For those keeping Score on the Silver BHOF coins, One Buyer purchased 200 Silver Proofs from One Seller Today for $14,409.60

    I don’t mind seeing someone Flip that knows how to do it within the scope of current market pricing and this Seller did just that…

    LOL, better dump them, credit card bill is due… almost 15k. that’s a lot of money. wonder how much are the ebay and paypal fee? really interesting

  128. AkBob says

    Boy, the prices for the Gold JFK ANA Chicago labeled releases in 70 are tanking. They originally were going for around $5K and now they are selling for below $3K. It’s looking like by the end of the weekend they will be selling for under $2500. The market is saturated with the Chicago ANA labels. The HOT label is the FDOI, First Day of Issue and most if not all have already sold out. Time will tell where they end up. This will more than likely impact the pricing/values of the First Strike and/or Early Releases labels. For those that purchased these Special Labels at the higher prices will have a very difficult time recuping their initial investment. Another example of folks buying into the label hype, particularly the ANA and FDOI labels. The FS and ER labels seem inconsequential now and those too as well are over priced/valued just because of the label and NOT the coin itself, unfortunately.

  129. Jon in CT says

    The US Mint does offer one product whose coins are certified by the US Mint to be exclusively from the very first day of production. Maybe the Mint should figure out a way to extend that certification/program to its other products in order to keep the “first day premium” for itself.

  130. stephen m says

    cagcrisp, I know there are people in this world like you but one just doesn’t hear or meet up with one very often or never. You will never go wrong with your generosity and good deeds. It will come back to you in one form or another. I’ve always told folks what goes around comes around. It works not only for the good but also for the bad. Of course I’m referring to you as one of the good. Wow! You are truly amazing.

  131. Pittsburgh P says

    Yes, imo karma is a real thing. If you are genuinely kind & generous you will be rewarded & if you are ignorant & selfish you will be repaid in like… Many are not as fortunate as Cag is to be able to pay it forward like you have and I commend you for doing so. It’s nice to hear things like that and I am sure your mentor was happy and proud to have had a part in leading you to who you are now.

  132. CasualCollector says

    I’m looking at some graded Kennedy Anniversary Clad sets, and here’s what I see (I have no affiliation with any of the TPGs).

    I am looking at 2 sets of PCGS Chicago ANA graded SP67. And also 2 sets of Anacs SP69 (yes, purchased from HSN).

    So there are 4 coins from PCGS (2 P’s and 2 D’s). One of the 4 coins looks slightly BETTER than the other 3 coins. But all 4 coins are graded SP67.

    Then there are 4 coins graded from ANACS (2 P’s and 2 D’s). One of the 4 coins looks slightly WORSE than the other 3 coins. But they are all graded SP69.

    In my view, the Anacs coins (SP69) actually do look better than the PCGS coins (SP67). The WORST looking ANACS coin looks to be about the same as the BEST looking PCGS Coin.

    Whether the ANACS Coins deserve a grade of SP69 — that I cannot tell you (I wish I had a PCGS SP68 to compare). But from my view of this small sampling, I feel comfortable saying the Anacs SP69’s do look better than PCGS SP67’s.

    And to someone’s point earlier, maybe the Anacs SP69’s might have been graded lower by the other TPG’s. But I can’t imagine much lower because they do look better than the PCGS SP67’s..

    And BTW, there is one Anacs SP69 that looks really really good. I am tempted to send it to PCGS to see if it might get a 69 from them (I think I saw a special from PCGS on Crossovers — only pay for what actually does crossover — I have to go searching for where I saw that…)

    Again, this is only my opinion, and it is using a very small sampling…

  133. mark says

    @CC…I also ordered a set of anacs sp69s. But sent them back, for refund. They were dull looking and had water looking spots on them. Also have 5 sets from the mint, 3 of them are going in for grading. They are proof like and very few marks.

  134. AkBob says

    CasualCollector – While I can’t disagree with your observation it strikes me that NGC and PCGS have only graded a VERY small amount of 69’s (PCGS -? & NGC – only a handful) and ANACS has graded thousands. Not sure what is up with that but there’s definitely something wrong here. I’m not sure PCGS has graded any in 69 and I know NGC has graded a few but no idea as to the exact amount other than it’s a very low population. How can there be such a difference between them? That’s a question that maybe some other fellow MNB folks here could address or attempt to anyway. Help – Anyone care to give their opinion/thoughts??

  135. CasualCollector says

    @mark — I know what you mean about the dull and water marks. That sounds like the WORST one I am talking about of the ANACS coins I have. The SP67’s from PCGS are just as “dull” and 2 of them have those water looking spots. Those 3 sets you have from the Mint that are proof like with very few marks — those sound like easy Anacs 69’s and a chance at 69 from the other TPGs Goo luck, I hope you get a 70!!!

  136. CasualCollector says

    @AkBob — yea, I’m not sure what’s up with the difference in numbers for 69’s (makes me wonder too).

    I will say this. I ordered the HSN Anacs BHOF Clad MS70’s. As well as NGC and PCGS Clad MS70’s. I felt there were cases where the Anacs MS70’s were better than the other TPG MS70’s. And also the other way around. Must depend on who you get at the grading company, what time of day it is, belly full vs. starving, etc…

    .

  137. Eddie says

    I could have sworn that the 2 coin 50th anniversary set was “High Relief” and now I don’t see it anywhere.
    I was looking at the 2 coin set next to the annual unc set and the annual set is a hell of a lot better looking than the 2 set set. There is more detail and looking at them side by side it makes me wonder why I even bought the 2 coin set. One of the reasons is I thought it was going to be high relief and it doesn’t look like it. For the money I paid they should have had been a lot better strike. The annual set blows the 2 coin set out of the water.
    I only count 9 different strikes someone else said there were 13 different one can you tell me what they are?
    I am just disappointed in the 2 coin set after comparing them.

  138. Clark says

    Just received my clad anniv Kennedy grades from NGC. No proof-like (PL) designations, even though I thought they were mighty shiney for clads. Still, I’ll take the 67s.

    001 2014 P CLAD HIGH RELIEF EARLY RELEASES 50C SP67
    002 2014 P CLAD HIGH RELIEF EARLY RELEASES 50C SP67
    003 2014 P CLAD HIGH RELIEF EARLY RELEASES 50C SP66
    004 2014 P CLAD HIGH RELIEF EARLY RELEASES 50C SP67
    005 2014 D CLAD HIGH RELIEF EARLY RELEASES 50C SP67
    006 2014 D CLAD HIGH RELIEF EARLY RELEASES 50C SP67
    007 (2012) BRNZ FRANCES CLEVELAND TERM 2 MEDAL MS69

  139. Zaz says

    Re: “a man in wig” comment. LOL… Lou would have been considered in early 20th C. parlance as a ‘handsome’ woman. She and Herb were a staid couple from Iowa who both went to Stanford and spoke Mandarin to each other. Hardly the popular image of the flapper and rum runner, although his coin could pass for a G-Man of the time. Still she’s only runner-up in the FS Ugly pageant, Margaret Taylor holds that dubious distinction. Sometimes the line art (which was excellent) just doesn’t translate well to metal which happened here. CCAC pushes for profiles for that reason alone.

    “Barney Fife” on the on-deck circle. SMH.

  140. Eddie says

    I can’t wait for the 4 coin silver set. Those are going to be amazing. The reversed proof is the best reverse I have seen. Has anyone seen or have a pic of the enhanced half? I can’t wait to see it. For my money this will be the set to own.

  141. AkBob says

    I think your last sentence of your last comments says it all. I’d almost be willing to bet that the same grader could grade the same coin 5 times and come up with at least 2 if not 3 different grades on any given day on any given coin. Something that I would really like to know is does the grader know who the coins owner is prior to them grading. I think that should be a requirement and/or policy with the TPG’s that they do NOT know who owns the coin(s) prior to grading. It would eliminate the idea that they grade coins better if they know it’s one of their best customers/big dealers. I have really never thought the TPG’s would grade coins better for their best customers/dealers but after the JFK Gold release and the first coins came back in 70’s just seems a little suspicious. I’m not saying that happened but it sure makes you wonder and making collectors feel that way gives little comfort to the rest of us collector’s. Other than for protection (and that’s debatable) do Modern Coins really need to be graded at all? Maybe they would in 50 years but do they today?

  142. thePhelps says

    I for one see very little reason to send a modern coin in to be graded. I try to visually inspect my purchases and will send back obvious defects – but most of the coins I have are probably in the 69 to 70 range and I don’t see the point in paying someone else to tell me that and give me a label…

  143. Pittsburgh P says

    Eddie for the 1001rst time: 😉

    1)2014-W PROOF GOLD HR 50c

    4-COIN SET SILVER:
    2)2014-P PROOF SILVER 50c

    3)2014-W RP SILVER 50c

    4)2014-D UNC SILVER 50c

    5)2014-S ENHANCED UNC SILVER 50c

    TWO COIN CLAD SET:

    6)2014-P UNC CLAD 50c

    7)2014-D UNC CLAD 50c

    REGULAR ANNUAL ISSUES:
    8)2014-S PROOF SILVER 50c(LIMITED EDITION SILVER PROOF SET)

    MINT SET:
    9)2014-S PROOF CLAD 50c

    *10)2014-P UNC CLAD 50c

    *11)2014-D UNC CLAD 50c

    ROLLS/BAGS:

    *12)2014-P UNC CLAD 50c

    *13)2014-D UNC CLAD 50c

    *Some consider these to be the same but others believe since they are in different offering released at different times they are separate… If you are putting the type set together it’s up to you.

  144. Pittsburgh P says

    if you’re referring to the ones in the set being of uncirculated quality and the ones in rolls and bags are of circulated quality its the same thing O coin God

  145. Pittsburgh P says

    I guess if you want too argue semantics like you always do I should list them that way but ALL JFK half dollars are uncirculated now imo since they are only sold through the Mint at a premium…

  146. Chibi says

    Pittsburgh P: My understanding from the Mint site is that the 2014 Annual Mint sets (SW1, U14, &P16) and 2014 bag & rolls (K11 &K12) Kennedy’s are not part of the 50th anniversary design series. They do not mention anything about being 50th anniversary designs. If you look at the images on the Mint site, the 2014 Kennedy’s don’t look like the 50th anniversary coins.

    Articles in Coin World also indicate that only the 1st 7 items on your list are from the 50th anniversary series. (though I have not seen anything about the 2014 special silver mint going either way)

  147. says

    Man is my gold JFK NICE!!!! I think I’m going to try and marry it!!! Most beautiful piece I have ever purchased from the Mint.

  148. Clark says

    VaRich–So I finally went through my box of 50 silver proof BHoFs last night and the results are similar to yours and my previous reports: I’m only sending 9 of 50 to NGC for grading on Monday. My UNC silver BHoFs were even worse, as I reported previously. The good news is the remaining 41 fall between PF67 and 69 (mostly 68), which will be nice to have in my BHoF collection in OGP .

    At the risk of shaking up a few posters on this board, I will say that as far as BHoF gold and silver coins are concerned, the Early Releases designation actually means better quality, for once, because the first April production run was of higher quality. The later (summer) runs have been plagued with quality issues. I base this observation on 10 separate gold BHoF shipments and 25 separate silver shipments from April through my last shipment yesterday. Others may have had different experiences.

  149. Sith says

    Well mine is so hot had it come with a kinky hair I would have sworn someone had sex with it

  150. says

    @Clark, Maybe your April/summer analysis partially explains the mess on the 2 pc anniversary clad set. All 5 of my D Mints look like they played tiddlywinks with them before packing!

  151. VaBeachSteve says

    @ Clark …… Not sure I necessarily agree with you concerning the quality of the last shipments of the BHOF ( at least the gold). All my orders for both gold & silver were from the last batch sent out by the Mint. Although I have yet to send in any silvers, I did submit 9 gold (4 Pf & 5 uncircs) coins to NGC of which all 9 graded 70. As far as the silver is concerned, I’ll let you know in 30 days.

  152. Brice says

    You fellas aren’t giving me much hope for quality silver (proof and uncirculated) BHOF coins.

  153. Brice says

    They shipped Wednesday, been on hold for 2 weeks as CC needed updated. Hopefully they were packed and I don’t receive the scraps.

  154. ABC says

    For the 100th anniversary of the Walking Liberty half, the Standing Liberty quarter, and the Mercury dime in 2016, I want the mint to produce 5 ounce reverse proof ultra high relief versions of each coin.

  155. Clark says

    VaBeachSteve–We’re not far from agreement. I only had 1 of 10 gold BHoFs come back PF69. Gold quality throughout all fulfillment cycles has been better than silver quality. I’m still waiting for the last two gold coins to come back from NGC, but they looked like 70s to my untrained eyes.

    Brice–Don’t worry. You can always take advantage of the temporary price dip for silver $1 BHoFs and grab some 70s for great prices. IMO, they won’t be this low again.

  156. Jerry Diekmann says

    bg35765 – regarding Grover & Frances Cleveland – the historian in me brings out a story of Grover Cleveland and a “scandal”. Apparently he had fathered an illegitimate child years before. When the Republicans heard about this dalliance on his part, they came up with the little ditty, “Ma, Ma, where’s my Pa? Gone to the White House, ha ha ha!” Actually, Cleveland was a pretty decent president, and the only Democratic president from 1860 to 1912 – that’s a long time!

  157. Jerry Diekmann says

    I remember when an MS65 coin was considered almost the best condition obtainable. The TPGs have ruined the hobby IMO. Based on what went on in Chicago, I would never consider going to an ANA coin show – what a mess and a black eye for numismatics.

  158. Pittsburgh P says

    @Chibi those are the list of all the 2014 JFKs available in 2014 not just the 50th anniversary release… That is why I split it up – First 7 then the last 6 are “regular annual releases” as it says in the post. Where did you get that I was saying all were 50th anniversary?

    Eddie said he only counted 9 in the type set for 2014 & asked where 13 came from- I was just listing them for him

  159. Larry says

    @ eddie – The mint had the four coin silver set at the ANA. As I have said in previous posts ( I know, you tired of hearing it) in my opinion the reverse proof Kennedy is stunning. The enhanced coin looks like the proof, except for some of the details, like the shield on the eagle. When I was at the ANA show I looked at the gold proof, then the four coin set and decided my money was better spent on the four coin set. The four coin silver set really has the WOW factor, I didn’t feel that with the gold.
    So hold on to your hats, the insanity is going to start again soon when this set is released. It will probably be even worse, as more can afford this one.
    @Jerry Diekmann – you should still go to the ANA show if you love the hobby. Unless you are lucky and live by a major coin dealer, where else do you get a chance to see such coins as the 1913 nickel, 1804 silver dollar, gold proofs. Not to mention the Barber, Seated Liberty, Indian head, etc…. proofs. The quantity of coins is almost overwhelming.

  160. Eddie says

    @Pittsburgh P I would like to thank you for posting those for the 1001 time it was very thoughtful of you and it is the 1st time seeing it.
    I wished Dansco would make a special page just for these because if they don’t the Kennedy album will always be incomplete.
    If you already have your 5 set and if you try to order more will the Mint just reject the order?
    I want one of the gold Kennedy’s so bad but just don’t have the money for it. I wished the Mint had a “Lay-away” or at that someone did.
    I am looking forward to the 4 coin silver Kennedy set. I have a feeling these coins are going to be so awesome.

  161. Pittsburgh P says

    @Eddie not a problem… Hope you took the 1001 times comment as it was to be – a joke 🙂 I know some haven’t seen it before & it never hurts to review… As you read it still caused disagreements.

    If you order more than 5 at once the Mint will cancel the whole order if you try to order 5 twice I think they’ll just cancel the later one…

    You’re not the only one anticipating the release of the silver set! It will be a great one to own…

  162. Eddie says

    @Larry That is what I have been saying about the reverse proof it really does look stunning in the pics. I never really cared that much for the reverse proof of the Walking Liberty but the Kennedy half looks like it was made for it.
    It could be like the TR set and we won’t get them until March or so could be wrong about it but the way the Mint does things who knows. I just hope it comes in a really nice presentation case.
    I am so disappointed with the 2 coin Anniversary set the strikes on the obverse should have been some of the best.

  163. Clark says

    Eddie–I’m using page two of Dansco 8167 album for the complete line of 2014 Kennedys, including the gold. There’s plenty of room for more pages in it, so it will fit nicely. I’m still a bit on the fence about treating coins from this year’s half dollar rolls as different from coins from the 2014 uncirculated coin sets, but what the heck, that Dansco page holds 20 coins, so why not?

    Some posters here feel that albums will tone silver coins, but in my many years of using them that’s not been a problem if I spend the $9 for the Dansco Slipcase with silver-guard corrosion protection.

    Lastly, the upside of gold Kennedy coins being minted to order and widely available from the Mint for a while and then forever from private sellers is that you have a long long time to save up for one…it’s a natural layaway option without any interest or fees. If you save $100/month, you’ll have your coin this time next year, probably at today’s $1240, unless gold prices soar. If they drop, you could pay less!

  164. Eddie says

    Is the Mint ever going to lift the household limit on the 2 coin set?

    @Pittsburgh P thank you again and that is exactly the way I took it. It is so hard to convey humor on a computer.
    Is there going to be a limit on the 4 coin set do you or anyone know? 5 is about all I can get anyway. I know know if I should order them all at once or break my order up. Any thoughts on the matter?

  165. Eddie says

    Clark I know what you mean I have slipcases for my Dansco albums and they do protect them better. I guess next year that will me one of my goals a gold Kennedy. I was wanting to get one from the Mint but “Life happens when you are busy making other plans” John Lennon. It is so true.

  166. says

    Current Guesstimates —

    Opening Day Only Sales Silver Kennedy

    • VA Rich 100k on 08/08/14 ; 137k 08/09
    • thePhelps 85,500 08/08
    • CaptainOverkill 75,000 08/08
    • cagcrisp 212,125 08/08
    • VA Bob 105k 08/08
    • HiCal 93,564 08/08
    • Bob R 169,000 08/08
    • Pittsburgh P 148,888 08/08
    • Hawkster 184,546 08/08
    • Dustyroads 64,000 08/09
    • Louis 115k 08/09
    • Sith 100k 08/09
    • GoldFishin 88,844 08/09

  167. Larry says

    Comparing the Reverse Proof Kennedy to the RP ASE’s, I think what makes the Kennedy and last years RP Buff look so much better is the way the complete head of Kennedy and the Native American stand out against the background. You don’t get the same effect with the ASE. When they make a complete RP proof set next year, that will be cool to see as in all of the coins the head a large part of the coin. Even a coin like the penny will be really neat with the polished bust of Lincoln against a satin background.

  168. Pittsburgh P says

    Eddie it is hard to convey humor & a lot of people take it the wrong way… Thoughts on the way to buy the silver set-really doesn’t matter unless you want to split payment methods. I will make 2 orders, 1 of 3 & 1 of 2 in case I want to keep a box sealed for grading to sell… Usually don’t but I may if they are going for enough to get mine cheaper.

    Cag looks as if most aren’t as bullish as me on first day sales

  169. Eddie says

    @Larry you said the Mint was going to make a complete RP set are you sure if so that would be so fantastic. Will the be making a regular silver proof set and a reverse silver proof set? Where did you read that I would like to read about if you have a link.
    Larry you just made my day if they go though with it.

  170. Eddie says

    Anyone have a date yet for when the silver Kennedy’s will go on sale or is the Mint still keeping that a secret?

  171. says

    General questions/comments on collecting modern commemoratives and various other modern issues.
    I have been following the comments/discussions on MNB for some time now and as a result believe my purchasing decisions have been much better informed than would otherwise have been the case. My thanks to the posters here.
    I now have a complete collection of 5oz -P ATB coins; most in OGP because the quality in the these coins has not been an issue, but a few in slabs when I couldn’t get the OGP when I wanted. I generally don’t like to pay for MS70 premiums onthese because quite frankly I have a hard time seeing the difference between PR69 and PR70. If I have a hard time without magnification spotting the difference then I think others will too….is it worth paying the premium for 69 vs 70 based solely on re-sale? (This question applies to all coins in my post).
    I have purchased 7 bullion ATBs as well. I have only purchased slabbed MS69 coins because of comments on this board about the low quality (I believe this especially applied to 2010) of the bullion coins. FWIW I think the bullion coins are just as pretty as the burnished ones.
    I have a reasonably complete collection of modern silver commemorative $1 pieces, all proof. Mostly in OGP for the same reasons as above; I see no reason to pay extra for slabbed proof moderns because the mint seems to do a reasonable job on QC. However does anyone here have comments on specific issues with specific coins? (Excepting the HOF coins).
    I am going to start a collection of moderm commem. $1 uncirculated coins. Here I think I’m going to go the slabbed route to ensure top quality coins. MS69 seems just fine to me, but in the MNB’s opinion (based on eventual re-sale only) is it worth paying the premium for MS-70 on uncirculated moderns? Do you guys think that in 20 years someone will still fork over huge premiums for 70 vs. 69? I personally believe it’s more likely to happen with uncirculated coins than with proof.
    I have some gold prf buffaloes ($50) but only in OGP. No way will I pay extra for slabbed coins there.
    And for the record I’ve ordered the Kennedy gold but haven’t received it yet.
    In general I assign zero significance to various labels. I will never pay extra for one. I think the FS label is the biggest farce ever so I even though I have a monster box of FS-eligible eagles I’m not going to have any of it graded.
    As to older coins, that is an entirely different subject…pretty much out of the scope of this blog, I think.

    Mark H

  172. fmtransmitter says

    I say whomever builds a standardized grading/scanning program that TPG’s MUST use by US Law will be the big winner in this hobby. It would take some time, but with lasers out there and technology, it could easily be done. It is done in manufacturing ALL the time! Quality Control! ISO 9002 etc etc…Coins are scanned and sent through a machine to have them looked at from a specific set of parameters and grades are based on those. Now wouldn’t that be something, in the not so far future!

  173. Eddie says

    I am with you there needs to be a standardized laser grading system as long as humans are making the judgment call as to what grade each coin receives there is going to be human errors. I wouldn’t want my coins to be graded as to what mood someone might be in or if they are tired and ready to go home or whatever the reason there are going to be errors made even if you are in the best of moods.

  174. says

    Eddie,

    The silver Kennedies are thought to be going on sale in mid – October, shortly after the mint’s new website launches. No exact date yet, though.

  175. thePhelps says

    @fmtrans… are you going to then send your MS/PF70 coins to be regraded? I am sure that the system would be fine, but a lot of people might not be happy if they go to sell their human graded coins and are told they will get less for them, unless they resubmit them to the auto grading machine you suggest… I am sure there are a slew of other ways TPG will make even more money on the lazer setup..

  176. bg35765 says

    Mark H – I think the answer to whether paying more for a 70 than a 69 will provide a better return in the long run is different for each coin that you buy.

    My observation has been that even when the grading services are grading 80% – 90% of coins as a 70 on a new release, collectors don’t pay any attention to that and pay a large premium for the 70. Those prices will be sticky for a number of years, but in the long run (10 – 20 years) the premium for those 70s will slowly erode.

    But in the opposite case where the 70s are hard to come by it might be worth it to pay the premium.

    The other thing to consider is that there could be major changes in the hobby in the long term, and almost all of them would affect the 70s negatively.
    – The death of baby boomers will flood the market with coins with fewer new collectors to replace them
    – One of the grading services could have a scandal that ruins their credibility
    – Registry sets could decline in popularity
    – Grading standards could change which would increase the population of 70 graded coins (see the 1995-W silver eagle)

    The decision I have made for myself is that I buy 69s because they provide authentication and convenient storage at a low cost. I think you should probably do the same if you can’t see a difference.

  177. gary says

    Yup, Third Party graders are much like baseball umpires. They both have human faults when it comes to determining strikes.

  178. gary says

    @bg35765 RE: – The death of baby boomers will flood the market with coins with fewer new collectors to replace them

    I’m a 62 year old boomer and not waiting for death to sell certain coins. LOL.

    But your point is well taken… there are fewer and fewer collectors, especially of the big ticket PM moderns. The U.S. moderns that I have collected are in OGP only. If I had to buy one in a slab, a 69 grade would do nicely & sometimes they are cheaper than OGP.

  179. jeff says

    I think the mint has an golden opportunity to change the future of TPG all the mint would need to do is grade the coins themselves. I for one would rather have a graded coin from the US mint as opposed to the plethora of money hungry companies. The mint could easily add 20-25 % markup on these coins. The mint is leaving money on the table in my mind.

  180. mark says

    I cracked out a lot of pf69s bhof silvers and put them back in ogp. And sold them on ebay for more than pf69s were selling for.

  181. VA Bob says

    Jeff – I have to strongly disagree with you on the Mint grading coins and charging a premium. The Mint should be making as close to perfect coins as it could, always. Once the Pandora’s box is opened to charging more for better quality, no one would want the rejects, so all collectors would be forced to buy the Mints 70’s or risk their collections would never be worth anything. If you went to a doctor that provided standard service or for some extra cash you got some premium surgery, it wouldn’t take log to wonder what he does differently. Sure it’s an apples to organs (pun intended) comparison, but you can see how ethics issues that could arise would ruin this hobby. TPG work because not everyone puts their faith in them, nor are they required to.

  182. VA Bob says

    Mark – moderns are the TPG’s easy money ticket. Little work, big returns, especially if there is a series of fancy labels to market. They don’t mind them being cracked out at all, it’s a good chance for the next buyer to provide repeat business.

    Which leads to another inaccurate form of information: TPS population reports. No one tells them when they crack out a coin to keep those reports accurate. Yet many people make buying decisions from these same reports. One can never know if one coin is represented multiple times in the same or different grades (now including labels categories).

  183. Pittsburgh P says

    Agreed VaBob

    Mark some would say that is unethical-unless you note that this was done in the listing-since people buy OGP with the hopes of getting a 70. You’re giving them a coin that has already been graded a 69 and may be less since the coin could be damaged while removing it from its slab… And at a price higher that 69s are going for.
    I am not saying its right or wrong just what I have read here and in other coin blogs/forums.

  184. jeff says

    VA Bob your comments are away informative however I’m not saying grade every coin maybe 20-25% of the run. You and I know there’s money on the table and I see no detriment to the hobby. Additional another aspect could be the mint serial number this run. All I’m saying is there’s money the mint is loosing to TPS.

  185. mark says

    The 69s I cracked were perfect. And if I damaged one I would not sell it on ebay. You really could not see a difference between the 70s and 69s. And I would bet that some would regrade a 70. Even had repeat buyers because of the nice quality.

  186. VA Bob says

    Jeff – and if they ran out of 70’s from that run, would you settle for their second best effort? How long would a car company stay in business if they certified a portion of the first months or two of a particular model to be perfect, and the rest? Well you get what you get.

    I’m not concerned about the Mint making more money. The money they make more than covers the costs, and then some. I don’t believe paying for government spending (the national debt) should be borne entirely on the backs of the collector. This hobby, as far as moderns, can go away very quickly if it becomes unaffordable to the average collector. The Mint needs to expand the collector base, not gouge those it has. Too much emphasis, and money, placed on what TPG’s think a coin is. My opinion only. Also, thanks for the kind words.

  187. Clark says

    I agree with whoever observed that the declining population of Baby Boomers could lead to lack of interest in the hobby and lower coin values over time, however, I don’t think it will hurt modern precious metal coinage. Older more arcane coins will be of less interest to younger collectors, which is why I have spent over $150K on modern coins and $0 on the old stuff. We won’t really know who’s correct, or more correct, for 50+ years, so for now it’s just fun to speculate. IMO.

  188. Sith says

    @MarkH – You asked if it was worth it to buy coins grade 69 over 70. It depends on the premium. As far as someone paying extra for a 70 in 20 years I would say sure they would but will the premium be worth the extra money you put into the coin? For the most part I would say no it is not worth it to go after 70s, but that is me.

  189. Sith says

    @Clark – You maybe right but those old coins have stories to tell. Morgan Carson City coins may never have circulated and sat in a vault for decades but they were made in the old west and they command a premium. The new Lone Ranger movie aside cowboys and cowboy movies will alway entice people and people will always want something that was their, war nickels, peace dollars, all have stories to tell. My 2 cents.

  190. stephen m says

    Of course when the baby boomers reach the end of the line there will be coins, and slabbed graded coins, that will go to market. Of course a 70 grade will still command a premium over a 69 grade. Of course there will be a much larger market for all coins, 69’s and 70’s and not a smaller market because the world market for coins is growing as the world income per capita grows larger and larger.

  191. Brice says

    @Sith, I do wish old coins could tell their stories. I found an 1853 quarter ( quar dol as stated in the coin) helping my grandparents 40+ years ago picking up rocks and roots aka junk out of top soil they had hauled in from a local creek to put around their house. I can finish where its been but would love to know where it had been.

  192. MarkH says

    Thanks for the answers/suggestions/comments so far-my main takeaway is that collecting/investing (for the two merge and often overlap) moderns is a completely different game from the older coins. I am truly a collector at heart but have to focus more on investing and return of capitol over a 10 year horizon for now. So I can collect a variety of moderns but concentrate on what can be liquidated the most easily should a sudden need arise. In this instance I view the coins more like stocks…something I can not afford to fall in love with. And I do NOT daytrade……er….flip coins:-)

    If I had my druthers I’d be knee deep in my old favorites-key dates of various series and the older commems, but for now I get to sort of scratch that collector itch a little while still remaining focused on not losing money. So after a base in bullion I started looking more intently at modern commems. This is why sorting out the issues between 69 and 70 and knowing how many problems people have had with mint coins in OGP for the various issued coins (proof or uncirc) is so important to me. It is also why I wanted to know whether or not labels made a difference in valuation over the long haul. PCGS’ insistence on including “Mercanti” label valuations on their webpage notwithstanding, I don’t believe those special labels add value 10 years down the road.

    Mark H (also in Va.)

  193. Pittsburgh P says

    Mark I hope no offense was taken from my comment-just playin devil’s advocate… I do agree that many modern 69s could be cracked open & resubmitted to get 70s back. That is one reason I’m not big on grading moderns-at least for my own collection.

    Jeff I have to agree with VaBob on the Mint grading coins-they will never do it either. Now I would like to see serial numbers though but doubt that will occur either…

  194. VaBeachSteve says

    I just realized Virginia is the most represented state in this forum. “Virginia is for lovers & coin collectors”

  195. Larry says

    Eddie – I don’t remember where I heard that the mint was talking about making RP proof sets. I think it was on this blog somewhere. Anybody else have a link to it?

  196. VA Bob says

    MarkH – I always advise people to collect what they like, but since you suggested collecting as an investment, with a 10 year price point, my personal take is that modern commem’s are a bad investment. Beginning with 1982, there are very few winners. Sure PM’s have increased the prices somewhat since then, but seem to have found their resting place +/- the last year or so. But demand hasn’t taken off for many of these coins and the can still be had for reasonable prices.

    There have been much better vehicles for investing over the same time period that would have made you a lot more money. Just be careful. Had you said 30 or 40 years, that would have been better but still not a great investment IMO. As much as I hate to say it, the flippers probably do the best, in and out, no attachment, they make a quick buck and move on. It does have it’s risks as well. Best of luck meeting your goals though.

  197. VA Bob says

    Reverse Proof annual sets will accomplish one thing IMO, and that is to take the specialness away from the RP’s that currently exist. The Mint will be giving its special finish away each year with no new trick to offer. Before long they will have to do colorized, plated, hologram, glow-in-the-dark, or bejeweled coins to have something special to offer. Then they will be just like their foreign counterparts hawking wild gimmick coins. when that happens I’m out, because no one can possibly collect it all to ensure the got the few pieces that might have some long term value. Best to just collect the PM’s then and forgo the much higher premiums that will be necessary to make these small mintage wonders.

    I wish the Mint would reconsider if the news is true.

  198. Hawkster says

    Mark,

    Did you really come out much ahead by cracking out the HOF 69’s and selling them as OGP’s on ebay? After all, you wasted money on the grading fee. And there is also the ebay fee.

  199. tinto says

    @VA Bob

    “Reverse Proof annual sets will accomplish one thing IMO, and that is to take the specialness away from the RP’s that currently exist.”

    Agree. I went into the RP’s because of that specialness (and relative ease of assembling a complete set) and if the Mint goes into producing RP Annual sets I will probably stop after the first or second year (just so I have a complete type set).

  200. tinto says

    @VA Bob

    “… moderns are the TPG’s easy money ticket. Little work, big returns, especially if there is a series of fancy labels to market..”

    It’s like a never ending fountain of money, each year brings new issues for them to work over.

    And they are going big time into world coins and currency. At least they have not had the chance to add labels there (I think)

  201. Diga44 says

    I remember back in 1986-87 I had a baseball comic collectible shop and a guy I knew had a coin shop and he got out of the coins and into cards he commented how the grading companies had come in and it changed the market!
    The coin market at the time was down , I remember way back then seeing coin dealers trying to sell at baseball card shows because that’s where all the customers were
    Now go too 1992 -93 the baseball card market is flooded with cards and now the companies come in and start grading cards. Hmmm
    The card market was now the down market
    Well all these years later the cards that sell on eBay are the high graded cards, and also I sold comics too back in the 1980’s and that market crashed too and the comics that sell for good money are the graded ones because the companies came in and started grading them too…. Like I said I opened in 1986-87 and the graded items are the items that sell for the good money!
    It’s all bullcrap, but it is almost 2015 and all the discussion here about graded items
    Well…..
    Like PT Barnum said ” there a sucker born every day” and he said that a long , long time ago

    The End

  202. VA Bob says

    Give them time tinto. I believe PCGS has a branch in France. They will open one up where ever the money is.

  203. says

    Va Bob,
    I understand what you’re saying about the prices of moderns. They’re depressed right now for sure and over 10 years may not bring me any significant returns. My coins investment thesis has to do with artificial suppression of precious metals prices (not a topic for this forum) but given low PM prices and a basically stagnant market in the moderns ex BOH and Kennedy coins (you can buy all the proof $1 coins for an average of around $40 per), I believe the potential for a store of value in these moderns is significant. (At .77 oz of silver per coin all we need is for silver to return to 2011 levels to have the coins in the modern series approach melt value). For Proof coins????

    During the course of my research I found that older commems are still way below their 1990 peak and there may be a parallel with the moderns. Who knows? What I do know is that other investment vehicles I’m conversant with are either way over-bought or not producing the dividends they once did. My investment in PMs and coins will never exceed 30% of what I have in any case. And Oh-By-The-Way some of these coins are just so beautiful!

    MarkH

  204. says

    @MarkH, 30% ..wow…I try to stay between 5-10%. Currently @ 8.0%. You think gold is Suppressed and I think gold is Overvalued at this point relative to other investment options…

  205. fmtransmitter says

    If a new laser grading technology was introduced , without US LAW btw, just because it’s the right thing to do, the TPG’s could charge a simple amount to reholder all the human graded coins from past. Win win…:)

  206. VA Bob says

    FM – better yet make the scanner cheap enough for the public to purchase, and we won’t need TPG’s to authenticate and grade coins. That’s why this device doesn’t exist, it cut money out from the TPG’s, who would only be able to offer slabbing. The technology to do this already exists and had been available for years. The big chore would be creating the database of grades for every coin type and their variables. The hardware is there.

  207. Buzz Killington says

    It is interesting to see some politically conservative commenters mention how we need to use the force of law (Republicans call these “regulations”) to change the TPG business model. That is never going to happen.

    No matter what, grading, and eye appeal, is always going to be subjective.

    I am interested in the ideas here about not replacing the aging population of coin collectors, and what that does to hobby in general. I am concerned about it to the extent that all of my purchases are from the Mint directly. If I miss an issue (and I have missed some good ones, notably the fractional Buffalos) I am content not to get it, because I don’t want to pay a collector premium that I don’t think is going to last.

    As a previous commenter has mentioned, it has happened to comics, cards, stamps, and it is going to happen to our hobby one day, too. On the plus side, there is a precious metal floor, but that floor is A LOT lower that current PM prices suggest.

  208. Small time collector says

    I hope this is not a re-post as I’m new and tried to link a site using url and it didn’t show up.

    I just read a report on http://www.gold.org/supply-and-demand/gold-demand-trends and wonder if decreased demand may translate to lower sales from the mint as collectors buy vintage and existing moderns to fill in their collections. This might also decrease submittals to the grading companies.

  209. Larry says

    Coins for the most part are not a good investment because us average folks are buying at retail and selling at wholesale. Not a good way to make money, if that’s what you want to do.
    I pretty much buy directly from the mint as I figure that is as close to wholesale as I can get.

  210. MarkH says

    Cag-we’ll just have to disagree on the price of gold (and probably silver too)…at least you must admit there’s nothing like the heft of a 1Oz gold or silver coin.

  211. mgm says

    Paper or gold. I’ll take gold when we are 17 Trillion in debt with 100 Trillion in unfunded liabilities.

  212. Clark says

    Although I strongly condemn the recent antics of some TPGs, I could not manage my collection without NGC’s collector software tools. Many who are new to the hobby or unfamiliar with NGC may be unaware of the collection management software that comes with an NGC membership. PCGS also offers similar tools, but I’m not a fan of PCGS in general. Many of my sets are created to be “competitive sets” that allow me to pit my collection against those of others. At the end of each year, NGC judges the best sets and awards certificates for “most creative combinations,” etc. From a personal perspective, I use the collection management software to keep track of all the coins in my collection. If you must keep track of hundreds or thousands of coins, I’ve found it to be very helpful and far preferable to the excel spreadsheets I used to create from scratch.

    Anyway, just some information about non-grading related services from NGC, that might not be well-known. I’ve provided a link to a list competitive sets of modern commemoratives that shows photos of each members sets, descriptions, scores, etc.

    http://coins.www.collectors-society.com/registry/coins/public_sets.aspx?CategoryID=7&SetTypeID=75&sets=us&Ranking=all

  213. Sith says

    @Larry – I disagree unless your talking numismatic coins. Then as far as buying wholesale how do you buy numismatic coins wholesale? If that is your intent buy semi-numismatic coins they are priced at a % above spot. Sure you would have to sell back at a % below spot but if that spot price has increased and no guess work on the price. For exampling buying from the mint is costing you 30% above spot. You can get the same coin for a lot less above spot from a bullion dealer of course that coin will not be a proof coin. Not knowing your “investment” strategy you could get more bang for your buck by buying bullion coins.

  214. Sith says

    @diga44 – Are you saying those don’t grade their coins are foolish? I’m not sure what the point of your post was. All I can say is without a price point how can I evaluate your statement. How much did the buying the grade comic book cost back then? Your a dealer so obviously you have a better vantage point, but you are also making money on this and graded comics/coins are generating your best profits…

  215. Clark says

    MarkH–No problem. I, like most collectors, keep my coin collections in a bank vault, which makes it hard to access them when the need arises. Being able to see high resolution photos of all my coins in the NGC database 24/7 has been very helpful when I’ve needed to see my coins for various reasons (sometimes just to gawk, but mostly for comparisons while I’m at coin shows, etc.) I upload many of my own photos and use the high res pics that NGC takes when I submit coins for grading. My collections go wherever my smartphone goes.

  216. Wes says

    The laser scanner idea is a good one but not to grade coins. IMO they should be used as quality control measure to ensure that all coins being sold as collectibles are top quality.

  217. VA Bob says

    Eye appeal would be hard for a machine to determine. It would also be difficult to determine if a coin was cleaned. Harsh cleaning (with a hairline pattern) would be possible. Where it would excel is in coin authentication, probably the biggest concern for classic coin collectors.

  218. VA Bob says

    Clark – I use “Exact Change” software to keep track of my collection. You can put your own coin photos in, of course you have to take them yourself. It does keep track of all the important information in an easy to read manner and the reports are highly customizable. They also provide periodic market price updates at no cost. Program updates are also free for life. I’ve tried others before settling on this software. It might not be as fancy as NGC’s with smartphone integration, but it works well for a one-time cost.

  219. Sith says

    @Larry – not sure about your comment but any collectible makes a poor investment, the main difference between numismatic coins and other collectors is the PM content.

  220. Clark says

    VaBob–Thanks. I’ll have a look at Exact Change sometime. Whatever software you use, it’s a good idea to catalog, track the location and identify values of our collections. Can you imagine what a mess it would be for our heirs to try making sense (no pun intended) of our coin collections if we hadn’t laid it all out for them?

    One of my biggest fears about dying is that my wife or son will turn to a dishonest local coin dealer for help sorting out my collection. A lifetime of collecting could be sold for pennies on the dollar. So, I’ve gone to great lengths to map everything out, including values and locations, for all the valuable collections. They know I prefer that it not be sold and held for my son’s lifetime, but they don’t always follow my wishes!

  221. Jon in CT says

    VA Bob wrote on August 17, 2014 at 5:29 PM:

    Clark – I use “Exact Change” software to keep track of my collection. …

    I guess you must own an underlying piece of that action to afford the $79.95 plus the $6.60 California sales tax plus the $7.05 shipping and handling. 😥

  222. VA Bob says

    Clark – I hear you. One can’t be too careful with collection disposition. I would recommend anyone getting into the hobby catalog it right away to avoid a hassle later, even if it is just a simple spreadsheet.

  223. DIGA44 says

    SITH
    What I was trying to explain that back in the 1980’s coins were tanking not a big collectors market and this was coins in general, old coin, I guess new coins, as my friend who owned a coin shop told me and then told me about the grading companies which I knew nothing about his business , and they were trying to make the coin collecting market more appealing to all the customers who lost interest, because he had mostly raw coins that he as a coin dealer would put a grade in his opinion so now the gimmick was to have coins graded by a 3rd party which supposedly made them rarer and
    Then cards tanked and they did the same , grading companies started, it was a joke but the customer wanted these graded cards and they would pay more for a graded,then the same with comics
    Like all here that mention how the big dealers get the perfect grades on the coins it was my opinion back in 1992-93 that this was happening with the cards, comics. and many of my fellow small time dealers felt the same
    But as a dealer and when you sell on the internet most likely eBay having a graded item is easier to sell because if the customer feels that the item he bought is not what you described, if it is graded , slabbed well they will have to complain to that company who did the grading
    All grading is expensive and who knows what grade you will get back especially when you are a small timer who doesn’t generate enough cash with the grading company you deal with
    As I mention before it was interesting seeing the coin dealers at the baseball shows back in the late 1980’s and they were having a tough time, maybe you guys who have been collecting remember this
    I wish I had bought coins back then…”.
    In short grading is a gimmick, but it worked just look at the prices for coin on eBay older coins like Morgans the grading ones sell better and for more

  224. ABC says

    I have a couple questions for those of you who collect silver coins.
    Years ago, my father gave me a few common date Morgan dollars. In the interest of preventing them from rubbing together and scratching each other, he decided to wrap them in Saran wrap. They were kept in this state for about 10 years when I finally decided to unwrap them and sort through my collection. Being new to the hobby (at that time), I had no idea that it was a bad idea to store those coins in that manner. A couple of the Morgans had developed black tarnish stains due to the sulfur that was used to manufacture the Saran wrap.
    Do you guys think I should leave them alone or should I have them dipped to remove the tarnish?
    If I decide to leave them as they are, will the black tarnish eventually eat through the rest of the silver?
    Thanks to everyone who answers.

  225. Howard says

    I have heard that collectable types of investments do better value wise in
    bad economic times. Seems like timing is almost everything.

  226. VA Bob says

    ABC – These coins may be able to be conserved, depending on the damage. If they are common date Morgan’s it may not be worth the cost. PVC damage usually leaves a green gook on the coin that actually eats into the metal over time. You’re description doesn’t sound like it (it could be tarnishing from humidity), but who knows what chemicals food wrap might contain. Very hard to tell without seeing the coins. If they are common, you can try a dip. Be careful and follow the instructions. If they are rare you might want to consider NGC’s conservation program. I’ve no idea what it costs, maybe someone familiar with that service can chime in. Good luck.

  227. Sith says

    @Diga44 – I don’t think anyone would argue that graded old coins are a good thing. You could even argue that the TPGs saved coin collecting, fraud was rampant at the time and the TPGs were created so people would have confidence in the market. However their are only so many old coins they could grade so they expanded to modern coins, then they added special labels which somehow makes a normal coin rare, and it is these expansion IMHO which will have a negative affect

  228. Sith says

    ABC- Don’t dip them unless you consider them already shot. Once they are properly stored and removed from the tarnishing agent they should stop getting worst.

  229. Sith says

    @Howard – It is my understanding that collectables do not do well in hard economic times. You would make out like a bandit if you could buy. Generally you would have to find a buyer willing to pay the full amount on the collectable. They are smelling blood in the water. Then in bad economic times a lot of the collectors are cash strapped, or worst actively selling . In other words they know the value of the item but you would have to make it worth their while to buy, generally that means offering a discount. It’s not to say that you would not make any money but had you sold during better economic times that collectable would still command a premium.

  230. says

    Mint BHOF excel spreadsheet update for 08/17/14

    Gold proof BHOF 32,887 down 0
    Gold unc. 18,449 down 4
    Silver proof 279,451 down 244
    Silver unc. 144,281 down 891
    Clad proof 207,066 up 2,267
    Clad unc. 130,642 up 3
    Young Collector 16,470 up 941

    Gold BHOF oversold 1,336
    Silver BHOF oversold 23,732

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