2015-2016 Native American Dollar Designs

The United States Mint has announced the design selections for the 2015 and 2016 Native American Dollars. These coins will continue the series featuring annually rotating reverse designs which celebrate the accomplishments and contributions of Native Americans.

Originally, the Mint had prepared 20 design candidates for 2015 and 18 design candidates for 2016, which were reviewed by the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee (CCAC) and Commission of Fine Arts (CFA) in March 2014. Coverage of the reviews and recommendations of the groups can be found here, here, and here. Within the design review process, additional reviews and recommendations were made by the Committee on Indian Affairs of the Senate, the Congressional Native American Caucus of the House of Representatives, and the National Congress of American Indians. After weighing the input and recommendations from the various groups, the Secretary of the Treasury made the final design selections.

2015 Native American Dollar

The 2015 Native American Dollar will honor the Mohawk Iron Workers as builders of New York City and other skylines from 1886. They had worked on prominent landmarks within New York City such as the Empire State Building, the Chrysler Building, the George Washington Bridge, and the World Trade Center. They had a reputation as top notch workers on high steel who did not fear heights or dangerous conditions.

The selected design depicts a Mohawk Iron Worker reaching from an I-beam as it swings into position. The city skyline appears in the background with the curvature of the Earth providing a sense of the great height. There are two rivets incorporated into the border of the design. Inscriptions include “United States of America”, the denomination “$1”, and “Mohawk Iron Workers”.  The reverse was designed by Ronald D. Sanders and will be sculpted by Phebe Hemphill.

Although the CCAC had showed support for the selected design, they had ultimately recommended a different design featuring a Mohawk iron worker waking across an I-beam against a stylized city skyline. The CFA had also recommended the same design. Likely, there was some support for the selected design from some of the other groups included in the selection process.

2016 Native American Dollar

The 2016 Native American Dollar will recognize the contributions of the Native American Code Talkers of World War I and World War II. The Code Talkers had served in the United States Armed forces and used tribal languages as a basis for secret communication which proved unbreakable to enemy forces. Code Talkers from individual tribes have been honored through an extensive series of Congressional Gold Medals launched last year.

The selected design includes two helmets against two feathers arranged to form a “V” to symbolize victory, unity, and the important role that the Code Talkers played. Rather than the dates shown on the candidate design above, the final design will include the inscriptions “WWI” and “WWII” with “Code Talkers” at the base and “United States of America” and “$1” above. The reverse was designed by Thomas D. Rogers Sr. and the sculptor will be selected at a later date.

Both the CCAC and CFA had recommended the selected design. They each had suggested replacing the dates with “WWI” and “WWII”.

Following the format of the series since 2009, the obverse design of each coin will feature the depiction of Sacagawea and child designed by Glenna Goodacre. Incuse edge inscriptions will include the date, mint mark, and motto “E Pluribus Unum”.

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Comments

  1. gary says

    Many thousands of dollars spent on so many designs for a coin that few of the public are even aware of their existence and are only made to in limited collector quantities that even fewer wish to collect.

  2. VA Rich says

    I really would have liked to see the Codetalker medallions done up in 2 oz .9999 Silver around 50mm in limited mintage of ~2,000.

  3. Pittsburgh P says

    Nice design imo… Doubt I’ll get any but might.

    Checked a few of my orders from the Mint and two had this added IS&R for 0.00$

    1 HLF DLR OR BBY HAIR TOP CAP FOR BIRTH ST

    Anyone have an idea what it is?

  4. oldfolkie says

    Disappointed with both, after all the nice code talker designs I saw this is what was picked. Not impressed.

  5. KEITHSTER says

    PP sounds like they are sending you a replacement coin cover did you have a cracked cover or a baby? Can’t stay gota go rescue my coins again they are yanking my trailer with a two day notice and that sucker ain’t going to want to go Wish me luck and good luck to you all:>:>:>

  6. Pittsburgh P says

    Keithster thanks! Yeah I cracked one of my jfk gold capsules and called them about it. I never knew they sent out replacement caps until now. Cool 🙂
    Good luck with your trailer!

  7. VA Bob says

    I pick up a P and D roll of these each year. These designs are not that great. They kind of move away from depictions of Native American’s living and deal with more modern aspects. I don’t know how long the series will go, but I do miss the eagle on the back of the original SAC $1. That was one of the best ever. It figures one of the nicest reverses is also one of the most short lived.

  8. Hawkster says

    There is a seller on ebay that is offering a “2014 Kennedy Gold Half PCGS 70 ANA Chicago Release First Strike” for a starting bid of $2,075. I have no intention of bidding on this item, but I sent an “ask a question” message to the seller. The question I posed to him was as follows: Do you provide the Mint receipt to the buyer of this coin as proof that it is an ANA Kennedy and not one brought to the show from another Mint sales venue?
    God’s honest truth, here is his exact reply: “All of my coins were bought in Chicago–my people were bused in everyday on a coach bus”.

  9. Ikaika says

    @ Hawkster

    This was already known that these dealers bused people to the ANA meeting just to purchase the JFK coin.

    From the number of coins that are currently selling on the secondary market and from the people (non-collectors) that were in line to purchase the coin at different locations, it is my feeling that out of the 60K+ coins sold so far, less than 10K were purchased by collectors. I might even risk less than 5K.

  10. Hawkster says

    Ikaika,

    Sure, it is common knowledge that these dealers bused in their people to buy the coins. But, I find it incredible that this ebay seller would come right out and state this, exposing himself as one of the sleazy dealers. By the way he never did answer my question about providing the appropriate sales receipt to the buyer of his ebay listng.

    As for your speculation that out of the 60K or so Kennedys sold thus far, less than 10K were bought by collectors: That would explain why the coin is a flipper’s nightmare–the collector base for the Kennedy gold is not large enough to provide any meat on the bone for these guys.

  11. gary says

    @Ikaika… I would have to agree with your assessment. The 1st day buying frenzy at locations & on the Internet at the Mint was driven primarily by flippers and the big boys. The air is truly out of this balloon as even those 1st day sales are selling on Ebay at a considerable loss. When you can get a PF69 for more than $100 less than at the Mint, it tells the story of oversaturation in the market. Only a very sharp rise in gold can breathe some life back into this item. I would not be surprised to see the Mint offer last chance on it in early December.

  12. Hawkster says

    Just as a follow-up in regard to the Kennedy collector base: How will this bode for the Kennedy silver set? I would assume that some of the Kennedy collectors stayed away from the gold offering for various reasons, the main one being the cost. There will obviously be a much higher number of silver sets sold, as the much lower price will encourage multiple purchases from Mint customers. But, the question remains as to how much more the number of collectors/purchasers will expand for the silver offering. The Mint was obviously overly optimistic in judging the range of appeal the Kennedy gold would have. Will the silver set meet the same fate—-a lower than expected volume of sales?

  13. Small time collector says

    re: the ’15&’16 NAD designs.
    While it’s interesting to memorialize modern contributions I feel it’s a very lack-luster idea. Reading link one of the reference piece, shed some light on the process the committee uses to rate designs.
    I don’t know if the tribes desired memorializing these contributions, nor if they had any say in what was considered.
    As Gary wrote seems to me that few will be interested.
    My personal feeling is tribal headdress (with or w/o bust) or item (teepee, peace-pipe) along with the tribal name would have greater appeal.
    These designs will continue the tendency for controversy as did the original Indian head cent.

  14. Hidalgo says

    @Hawkster – I think coin dealers, flippers, and speculators may be in for a big surprise when they see the value of the “mint to demand” 4-piece silver Kennedy half sets.

    There will be many coin dealers who will rush to get their orders in quickly (expect the Waiting Room to re-appear) so that they can be the first to get certified coins on the secondary market and also, get the “First Strike”/”Early Release” label. Demand to be one of the first to get certified coins is high at the beginning, but tapers off with time.

  15. Bill Bob says

    Here’s the thing about dollar coins (including the presidential series), the coins are not used in general circulation as we all know. Why not discontinue the dollar bill as Canada and most other countries have done. This saves the treasury billions (with a “B”) of taxpayer dollars. Congress, in their infinite wisdom, refuses to move forward with legislation.

    Read more: http://www.dollarcoinalliance.org

    Write your elected rep and reference H.R 5196

    https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hr5196/text

    Thanks.

  16. Small time collector says

    @Hidalgo – all the more reason for the mint to address exceeding household limit and also allowing them to buy early and grade. Long term it may likely hurt the mint.

  17. Levi says

    Honestly, I don’t think any of the candidate reverses for the NAM 2015-16 were as good as the original reverse on the Sacagawea dollar. That was a nice design.

    I would be good of the CCAC and CFA to look back to that design each year to find a reverse worthy of replacing that Sac Eagle.

  18. Erik H says

    VA Bob says
    September 1, 2014 at 12:53 pm

    They kind of move away from depictions of Native American’s living and deal with more modern aspects. I don’t know how long the series will go, but I do miss the eagle on the back of the original SAC $1.

    The rotating reverse is supposed to end in 2016. I don’t know if they will go back to the original reverse after that, come up with something new altogether or stop minting NA dollars.

  19. Hawkster says

    Hidalgo,

    I know that you’re big on them but, frankly, I’m tired of this “First Strike” and “Early Release” nonsense and the mad scramble to get the new, “hot” Mint offerings as early as possible in order to be eligible for these meaningless, gimmicky labels.

  20. Jon in CT says

    Bill Bob wrote on September 1, 2014 at 5:05 PM:

    Here’s the thing about dollar coins (including the presidential series), the coins are not used in general circulation as we all know. Why not discontinue the dollar bill as Canada and most other countries have done. This saves the treasury billions (with a “B”) of taxpayer dollars. Congress, in their infinite wisdom, refuses to move forward with legislation.

    Bill Bob thinks too small. Why not discontinue all coins and paper bills, PERIOD! Think about how much would be saved. And the so-called “cash” (i.e. underground) economy would evaporate as all transactions transition to cashless electronic account exchanges. The Feds salivate at the prospect.

  21. VA Bob says

    Erik H – Some how I believe they will keep the dollar coin in some form. The Presidents will be ending, but I think it’s just a matter pride keeping the coin (or the $1 bill) going since they can’t decide on one or the other.

  22. says

    Jon in CT says- Why not discontinue all coins and paper bills, PERIOD! Think about how much would be saved. And the so-called “cash” (i.e. underground) economy would evaporate as all transactions transition to cashless electronic account exchanges. The Feds salivate at the prospect.

    This attitude of yours wreaks of control and self gain sir! You do still remember that we live in a democracy? Or do you wish we had an aristocracy.

  23. VA Bob says

    The JFK silver is an attractive set, but for the money in comparison with other similarly priced silver offering, it’s a lot less. It will do a brisk first day sales as some have mentioned. Lots of sets will be purchased in search of a quick few bucks. I’ll order my 2 sets (as I did for 1 gold set) sit back and watch the show. Might not be circus coins, but the circus performance will go on none the less.

  24. Jerry Diekmann says

    Michael – I think you mean 1986, not 1886. In any case, a very attractive design, with some nice touches, including the pattern of “hex bolts” on the rim. One of the better designs in this series, which IMO has had some very nice designs. And thanks to all those brave men who helped build all those skyscrapers!

  25. Jerry Diekmann says

    The 2016 design is simple and effective. Does anyone know how long this series is expected to continue? I hope it continues long after the terrible Presidents series finally sees its last coin minted. The Mint couldn’t even get a design that looks like FDR and there are thousands of photos, videos, and paintings of him! FDR at least deserved his own likeness.

  26. VA Bob says

    I beg to differ Jerry, but while the design is nice, any one that does not know the story is going to believe this a some company name “Mohawk Ironworkers”. Sadly, if the Mint wants to make coinage for the masses, it has to be simple enough for them to “get it”. I’ve seen a lot more topics (recent even) that most citizens should know, and don’t, let alone this, more obscure piece of history.

  27. Jon in CT says

    Jerry Diekmann wrote on September 1, 2014 at 8:20 PM:

    The Mint couldn’t even get a design that looks like FDR and there are thousands of photos, videos, and paintings of him! FDR at least deserved his own likeness.

    The lameness of the new FDR memorial in DC far exceeds that of the $1 FDR coin.

    http://www.nps.gov/frde/index.htm

    I think that’s called karma

  28. BFN says

    The US Mint needs add sparkle and pizzazz to their offerings to collectors as well as rejuvenate business coinage which should involve leadership to reduce production costs and make US currency more efficient. Unfortunately it seems like everything else these days in DC, the Mint is unable to provide such leadership or innovation (in general).

    As an aside, I was pleased to read that the Mint has finally announced a release date for the Kennedy halves..

  29. BearMetal says

    2015-2016 Native American Dollar Designs – Proof that the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee (CCAC), Commission of Fine Arts (CFA) and the Secretary of the Treasury have achieved the ‘Peter Principle.’

  30. Small time collector says

    @BFN – case in point people were/are clamoring for new products of a 50 yr old design. I can imagine this series/design not so much.
    I see a problem with commen a small, yet interesting tidbit of tribal history.
    Are these designs developed with native american’s input?

  31. Doug says

    Just thought this might be of some general interest to some, as I previously recorde my fun filled night waiting for the coin. I’ve read a lot about how NCG required receipts from the ANA show whereas PCGS did not, and the request for sales receipts. There is actually very little on the receipt of useful information. The smaller receipt makes a vague reference to the show. The top of the receipt says: US MINT COIN SALES CONVTN / 801 9TH ST NW / WASHINGTON DC 20220 / (202) 354 7638. That is all of the location info on the small receipt. The larger card swipe receipt has nothing but product and price written in on the front, and the baack is stamped with the seal surrounded by TREASURY * UNITED STATES MINT *. The words ANA or CHICAGO never appear anywhere on either receipt.

  32. VA Bob says

    I don’t see what all the hubris is about bringing JFK gold coins to the show to have them graded. Enterprising people wanted to cash in on the silly label cheese. Does it really matter how it got there now? Perhaps we need “bought at the show” and “graded at the show” labels” to add to the silliness. Collect them all, they’re sure to be worth millions one day, as that will be the show to remember. Where was it at again?

  33. matt anderson says

    Thanks for posting the dollar coin designs. Just to be picky on the 2015 reverse there are 2 bolts not rivets in the border. Rivets are round.

  34. ABC says

    The mint is becoming like the Perth mint. It is simply producing way too many products. Imagine how much it would cost to put together a complete set of products for this year’s coins.

  35. VA Rich says

    The numbers from this past week of JFK sales should be a strong indicator of current demand going forward.

    In the 2nd and 3rd weeks of August, the coin has incurred the influence of:
    1. First two days of order cancellations
    2. First two days of order returns for replacement/refusal/refunds
    3. A price hike

    This past week of sales has incurred a price drop to its original offering price and mostly likely, a reduction of cancellations as the ‘cleansing period’ subsides.

    Therefore, if sales are up a solid 1,000 then we have price sensitive demand, if sales are flat or negative (again), I may have to concede defeat in our sales guesstimate competition!

  36. VA Rich says

    Pitt – I agree with your assessment that we’ll see increased sales the week of 28 October and around Christmas, though it may be more of an uptick than a spike, I would image that most JFK collectors already have their coin and those that give $1,240 coin gifts may have already made their purchase.

    From what I saw again last night, online demand appears to have reached the point of being easily over-saturated and teetering on collapse of even the 70’s price point of a 4, or 5 in the second digit when multiple listings end.

  37. Pittsburgh P says

    VaRich yep it won’t be a huge increase around those times but one none the less. Idk if today’s #s will be an indicator because I think it will be higher than average. Due to the reasons you stated… Imo next weeks will be an indicator if the price says as is. Just a thought. If it is low then they should just call it quits 🙂

  38. VA Rich says

    Pitt – NO, you’re wrong, they should not call it quits! They should…well.., ever see Old Yeller? hahaha! 😉

  39. Dave says

    With another collapse in the gold price, demand will drop this week and the flippers will again panic. More gold Kennedys will be available below issue price.

    Flipper’s nightmare = collector’s dream!!!!

  40. VA Rich says

    Hey, what’s this?

    SUMMARY
    : The United States Mint is announcing a price of $24.95 for the 2014 United States Mint Discovery Set.

  41. Pittsburgh P says

    VaRich Old Yeller… Yeppers
    Too much 🙂

    I don’t see gold dropping too much more like many others either…

    Discovery set… Hmmm

  42. gary says

    @Dave…Yes I noticed a number of gold Kennedy coins in PR69 sell in $1100 – $1200 range this past weekend and one sale of a box of 5 in OGP for $6211.00. Seller is taking about a $500 haircut on those! Why were they not just returned to the Mint for refund, one might ask. I think that the 1st day of sales on these was an oversaturation to the end user (collector) market. Even worse than that, the early buyers of PF70 coins are witnessing about a 50% devaluation in their plastic prizes. Every new Mint PM issue dances to the same tune. Early PF&MS70 buyers of BHOF gold have similar results with their plastic.

  43. VA Bob says

    The sell out of the AGE 1oz. should also help to slightly boost holiday sales for the JFK, for the high-end gift givers.

  44. Sith says

    I don’t see how the “collapse” in gold price is going to affect sales if it falls to breach $1,250

  45. gary says

    If gold goes below $1,250 then all buyers will cancel or return their coins to buy at the new pricing tier of $1,202.50. LOL, just kidding. Gold will no doubt bounce back up tomorrow at least half of today’s decline, IMHO.

  46. Dave says

    Look at any commodities chart. We are in a commodity bear market. Unless tensions increase internationally, gold will not be immune. As much as the “wise” ones in DC would like us to think, this economy is NOT strong and REAL inflation is not registered by our govt. No inflation , declining commodities, threat of interest rate increase, stock market forever up, and ignorance of Fed printing consequence = fall in gold price = opportunity for collector.

    Smile and stack. You will be happy when reality dawns on the clueless!

  47. Hawkster says

    Steve,

    I’m not so sure anyone is anxious to post their email address for the two $1,200 Kennedys you are selling, After all, the commenters on this site, with a couple exceptions, wish to remain completely anonoymous. Perhaps you would consider posting your email address so that potential buyers can contact you. On second thought, maybe you shouldn’t consider it.

  48. Sith says

    @Dave – “Smile and stack. You will be happy when reality dawns on the clueless!” No I won’t, at best it will be like being the only person in town with home owners insurance after a hurricane hits.

  49. Sith says

    @Hawkster – I don’t think Micheal will allow sales on his blog. One of the reasons for the crack down on posters a few years back was “scammers” trying to appraise\sell “my grandfather’s coin collection.”

  50. gary says

    @Sith… you are right! It never ceases to amaze me that people will still stack gold after what has happened in the last 3 years. Sure gold may or may not go up based upon future inflation. But it is not money, just another substance that is a commodity. I remember several years ago about predictions of $5-$10,000 gold. Even IF that ever happened the predictors never look at what state the economy would be in in such a scenario. Pure unabandoned havoc I would guess & society would not be a very pretty thing. Gold depends on War, famines and such to achieve fast price run ups. Money, when you get right down to it is nothing more than an idea of value.

  51. Sith says

    @gary – All money is ultimately fiat but to say that money is just an idea of value, seems relatively ignorant. It takes effort to mine gold\silver\nickel and that effort has worth. If it didn’t it would not be mined. As far as stacking, now is the time to stack, its cheaper than 3 years ago, and only one significant change to the fundamentals has changed, we are deeper in debt by the tune of 3 trillion dollars.

    Can you please tell me what War, famines or such drove the price of gold from $35 to $850 in the 70’s? And while we are on the subject the 70’s was terrible but hardly “Pure unabandoned havoc.” Even during hyperinflation rarely does the country actually break down, just look at Zimbabwe. Sure they lost everything, and people were panning for gold to buy bread, but at no point did society snap, in fact the same idiots who tried to print their way out of the problem are still in charge.

  52. Sith says

    @gary – The benefit of owning a “commodity” like gold is when the government declares a banking holiday in order to devalue the currency by 35% it will not affect that “commodity.” Don’t think it can happen here, it already did in 1935, and don’t forget about Nixon’s price controls, after in his own words his attempts “to stabilize the dollar,” by devaluing it in 1971.

  53. Hawkster says

    Sith,

    I agree with you. Offering coins for sale is not permitted on this blog site, and for good reasons. I was just trying to get the point across to Steve in a humorous manner.

  54. GoldFishin says

    @Cagcrisp- did you receive the survey by email or from the website. I changed my account and signed up to receive email notices for new products, etc. over the weekend. I have never been asked to complete a survey other than from the website, so I thought maybe my choice of email preferences was the reason.

  55. cagcrisp says

    @GoldFishin, email. I had Never gotten a survey except from the Mint’s website and when VA Rich sent me the email address of the Surveyor I sent him an email on August 28th. He replied on the 29th:

    “Thank you for contacting us. Your response is very important to the United States Mint. I am sorry to inform you that there is no United States Mint survey list I can add you to. Our respondents are selected at random, so it is luck of the draw. I hope that you get picked for future surveys.”

    Low and behold 4 days later I get my first Survey…. (had nothing to do with Gold Mercury Dime or Gold Walking Liberty)…

    It’s a Start…

  56. Harry Baskins says

    Gold is collapsing in price. It is best to return the gold Kennedys and buy back at a much lower price if you like the coin. You don’t want to be left holding the bag.

  57. gary says

    @Sith… Money is just an idea. The idea is to attach value to something to get you that thing you really need or want. Galloping inflation in the early seventies through 1982 is what caused gold to grow to $850, helped also by the Hunt Bros. attempt to corner the silver market and raise silver prices and the silver/gold ratio and OPEC oil. Been there & lived it. Even at that gold went POP real fast and it just meandered thereafter for over 15 years. You could buy many Mint gold commems at well below melt for years. Oh, BitCoin is an idea of money as well, it has absolutely no underlying intrinsic value except as a hot potato to pass off to the next guy who wants it.

  58. Sith says

    @gary – Yes it is an idea that has been around for 5K years. Per “hard money” advocates it must have intrinsic. value. IE it must have value and that value is why it is used as money. I tell you what give me all your” ideas.”

    “Galloping inflation n the early seventies through 1982 is what caused gold to grow to $850” – Thank you Captain Obvious, but where was the famine or war that backs up your initial statement? But never mind about that this is a coin collecting blog not a financial blog. I’m not really here to educate someone who thinks the dollars in his pocket or the gold coin in is collection has no value as it is simply an idea.

    FYI
    For those of you who say the dollars has no value, it does. The government will tax you and everyone you know to death in order to pay back the debt that it represents.

  59. Pittsburgh P says

    Gary comparing bitcoin to gold & silver… Really?

    Hawkster to much buddy lol I’m holding at least 5 bags still! But don’t see gold dropping below 1250$ let alone 1200$ Harry so I’d say your thought is ill advised imo… If you have the coin already you only have 7 days to return on your hunch & what if your wrong and it jumps over 1300$? Just thinkin outloud here 🙂

  60. Sith says

    Oh and I personally consider inflation a tax, and even with the Fed’s 2% inflation target it will devalue the dollar by 33% in 20 years as that 2% gets compounded. Its simple math. Sorry folks I just wanted to clarify, now back to coins

    @Hawkster – ROTFL

  61. VA Rich says

    Good luck Steve – I applaud your gumption!

    I’m thinking the guy or gal that reconciles the mint’s weekly sales report took an extend vaca.., nothing as of yet.

  62. MarkH says

    Sith-you nailed it. Good analysis on the “Gold is money” thesis. It really is money, just as silver is. The production of these two metals is difficult and that results in their relative scarcity. That translates into a money-if it is used-that can not be printed at will such as all the fiat currencies in the world today..and make no mistake, everyone that matters is printing like crazy. Sooner or later some country will once again issue a currency that is backed by a precious metal and that currency will be the strongest in the world.

    In the meantime it’s a great time to buy gold and silver coins. The cost of the metals is now below the replacement cost for most miners and that puts a basic floor on their price. And since the cost is so low right now one can indulge one’s collecting itch with relatively wild abandon. I know I am. And it’s fun-just look at traditional commemorative silver dollars-they’re still below their peaks in the early 90s.

    And for anyone who thinks that gold and silver aren’t real money I have this to offer-back when we were on the gold standard it took $20 to buy a $20 gold piece. How many dollars would it take to buy one now?

    MarkH in the mountains of Va.

  63. gary says

    @Sith… believe whatever you want that gives you comfort. Money is just an idea and yes PittP, if Bitcoins can buy gold and silver I would have to make a comparison until and unless the BitCoin evaporates. Yes gold has been a store of wealth for millennia and so has grain, diamonds, copper, shells and a lot of other commodities.
    Captain Obvious suggests you do some reading into gold’s historical values over the centuries & how it is tied to war and threats of war. Yes, the paper money in our pockets is worthless in the sense that it has no physical backing. But the great captains of industrial capitalism decided that backing currency with a finite commodity was limiting to capitalism, credit and debt which turns the world. I don’t believe there will ever be a world currency backed by gold or any other commodity simply because it would paralyze that nation if the commodity rose in value and drove their currency to hoarding. Anyhow, I thawt you were entitled to my opinion! Cheers!

  64. Sith says

    @Gary – Yes I will, and it give me more than comfort, and yes your entitled to express yourself even when you fail to back up your opinion with any facts (as requested) now move on please…

  65. Pittsburgh P says

    Gary why don’t ya stock up on bitcoins & I’l stock up on gold & silver – let me know how that works out 🙂
    Our opinions will just have to differ on this one…

  66. Sith says

    @gary- Before I move on, based on your idea we would have to go back to a barter economy. FYI food spoils, and hauling a a barrel oil or a cow around to pay for food would suck.

  67. gary says

    PittP… LOL, bitcoins are about THE dumbest thing to ever conceived but I guess they are a natural item for the anonymity of the Internet. I prefer the P-Mint ATBs myself even though the government guarantees them to a max value of 25¢! LOL

  68. Sith says

    @Pittsburgh P – Gary does not believe in money, regardless if it has intrinsic value or not . See my comment above, he wants you to carry chickens around town to buy things because in his mind money only has value that you assign to it, never mind that you would still have to assign a relative value in barter economy, IE 20 chickens are worth 1 cow, but that exchange would only give me comfort, as in Gary’s opinion the exchange would just be an idea.

  69. Sith says

    You just contradicted yourself, you think all money including PM money is a joke now you’re saying Bitcoin is a joke and you prefer silver based on a fiat currency. Can you please elaborate?

    I doubt you will so let me point it out \, the ATB’s have an intrinsic silver value (it take effort to find and mine it), and it can also be used to pay a debt via government fiat. You just elegantly summed up my entire argument.

  70. gary says

    I didn’t contradict myself, you just choose to pull things out of context to suit yourself. “Assigned values” are ideas of worth, eh? What has no intrinsic value for sure is to carry on a parley any further with you Sith. You keep faith with your gold & I’ll get some chickens with my ATB pucks. Gnite.

  71. Pittsburgh P says

    Whoa @Sith… Lol but you’re gettin a little too hyped up on this one. We see eye to eye on this one but I’d let it go.

    Gary thst was the smartest thing you said & we DEFINITELY agree on that – Bitcoins & all the similar “currency” is one of the dumbest ideas concieved but sadly technology, the internet, & people wanting to be hip & on the cutting edge feel a need for it I guess. Any “mining” on a computer other than data mining is worthless & a fraud imo!

    I do think it’s odd that a 5 oz AtB has a face of .25 cents and always will even with the intrinsic silver value 🙂

  72. VA Bob says

    The government was smart to put .25 cents on the ATB’s (and $1 on the ASE’s, $50 on the AGE’s, etc.) That way when they come for them they can pay face value for their “fair” deal. The Mint made almost 35 million ASE’s (bullion, proof, and uncirculated) in 2012. Just say for the sake of a number they all sold for $25 (we know silver was much higher then, proofs and unc’s even higher) that would be $875 million, not a bad profit, and that’s one coin type from one year. Of course it would be hard to recover them all, but if a government agent showed up simultaneously at known large PM buyers and banks locked their safe deposit boxes until they could be searched, they could net a pretty big catch.

    They’d have to go after the small fry’s to catch me, and even they they’d have to have me first on the list, because if I got wind of it first, they would never find it. I have none of my stuff in a safe deposit box. I’m not a conspiracy theorist, probably nothing like this would ever happen. Then again, I don’t put a lot of faith in the government either. If they want something bad enough, they will take it. Happens every day.

  73. VA Bob says

    1979 P PCGS MS 65 Susan B Anthony Wide Rim selling for 100 bucks right now on CV. Who’d have thought.

  74. Small time collector says

    I find these discussions interesting (and on other collector type boards I visit).
    I don’t know how many here collect as a hobby, stack, or flip as their interest in coins.
    As a hobbyist in several interests (coins, cars, fishing, antiques, gardening) I do not look at any as a secure means to invest in the future. I sure like having a chunk of change in real estate, and smaller amounts involved in the “hobbies’.
    I like my hobbies and some cost me considerable $. Some have resulted in unexpected treasures (profit on sale or appreciation sitting static). I have yet to sell or trade a coin, I did swap some englehard bars for englehard pillows years ago to keep one type.
    To become so focused on weather I’m making or losing on any hobby would take the fun out of it for me.
    completely ot – my defective k15 returned rec’d at mint 8/29 replacement shipped 9/2.
    hmm, are they all caught up, or do exchanges jump waiting order? If I was caught up in the label thing I could yet mail this off for early release….

  75. GoldFishin says

    @STC – replacements take precedent and they will ship fairly quickly, usually about a week has been my experience, if they have items in stock.

    I think it is wise to diversify one’s life and one’s assets. Enough about that.

    I have a feeling the US Mint cranked up the presses after the initial days sales. I am hoping they didn’t get carried away as I think they said they had the capability of minting 6000 JFK’s per week and enough material on hand to produce 75,000. I sincerely hope they really did assess the follow up demand, as they said they would, so these things won’t be around for another 50 years. I hope you get a good coin!

  76. Small time collector says

    @GF – I received 1 keeper and this had obvious problems. Frankly I was a little shocked. My experience for several years with gold proofs was all 70’s save for a single 69 ordered late in the year. I don’t regularly get coins graded. When I have 10 I get a membership and send them in. I just noticed on a retail site graded coins (pcgs70) are not netting much more than ungraded coins. I also noticed desirable years or designs (low production or one-offs) the grading does seem to help. I think in the future I will reserve submittals to what sales research (commercial site asking or auction site net) indicate.
    I do not know if I was simply lucky with past experiences, or if the mint is slouching on QC.

  77. sharks2th says

    The K gold exchanges seem to be getting priority over new orders. I ordered on day 8 and it arrives tomorrow. Others have received replacements in the time I have been waiting for an original order made one week later.

    Two 25¢ 5 oz. ATBs for one Kennedy gold half comes close to the old ~16:1 silver to gold ratio (gold $20/silver $1). It comes out to 13.3:1, which is not too far off from the pre 1933 ratios. The current silver:gold ratio is running in the 60+:1 range in terms of fiat US dollars.

    I think the mint should have made the 5oz. ATBs five dollars instead of a quarter. It would have kept the ratio between the silver eagles and the ATBs 1:1 (1oz.=1$, 5oz.=$5).

  78. GoldFishin says

    @STC – I agree with your assessment…grading does tend to help in the near term with particularly hot issues where demaind remains fairly robust over time. However, I have begun to do some work on issues that have been out for longer than 5 years and it seems that with the types of offerings we are talking about, a couple of examples would be the 2009 UHR and the 2008 fractional gold buffaloes, that OGP and graded 70 examples get closer and closer to the same value the further out in time you go. I think how you proceed in this hobby really depends on what your collecting preferences are. If you are a “buy and hold” kind of person, I sort of think that buying and keeping most purchases in OGP is appropriate. If you like to sell a few things along the way to help pay for your hobby, well grading some coins and selling them may be a good way to go. It really varies with each issue. I have learned a lot listening to the “OGP only” crowd here on MNB and do not dismiss that many of them have been in this hobby for 30+ years and have a wealth of experience to share. I like to think that I am open minded enough to always listen and evaluate other people’s perspectives. Then I make informed decisions and do what the heck I want to! 🙂

  79. Small time collector says

    @GF – I’m with you about how I decide (lol).
    You specifically mentioned the two moderns I was able to pick up when they were offered. I’ll be keeping them (and all the others) for the kids. I don’t have any tinfoil hats and figure I won’t need to sell anything. I have only found myself recently considering joining the pre’33 ranks, yet feel the chance of landing one that does not have profit and mark-up are slim. I can see only rat-holing items that strike my fancy and that the whip will allow 😉

  80. Sith says

    @Pittsburgh P – Yes I will let it go now, it just upsets me when people try to pass out garbage for advice. I’m sure gary will now just come up with another bunch of nonsense about how he will use worthless silver to buy chickens.

  81. Pittsburgh P says

    Cag I fell asleep & missed out on that great trade lol! How about for a clad jfk 😉

    Sith yeah but the way I look at it everyone is entitled to their opinion & I hope most here are educated enough to take the bad & the good advice with a grain of salt & do their own research…

  82. MarkH says

    GF-I agree with you completely on the moderns in PF70….they’re just not worth the extra money up front over OGP. In uncirc I’ve decided to focus on MS69 for moderns since the QC process in general doesn’t seem to be as robust for them as for the proofs.

    JonC-nice link….it is so simple to understand I can’t believe some try to argue the other side. Maybe it would be easier to look at PMs as “insurance”. There never has been a time when gold or silver were worthless, and ALL fiat currencies through the ages have failed, just as the current ones are failing now. And by failing I mean inflating themselves away to enable govt. promises.

    I read with interest the post about CR1, the silver $1 Civil Rights commemoratives. Turns out they have fairly low mintage-for the proof-55k and for the uncirc 22K and change. Any thoughts about whether 22k is low enough to eventually command a premium?

    MarkH

  83. thePhelps says

    MarkH… mintage totals are 1 way of measuring a coins worth in the future, but the coin has to have some redeeming qualities to actually be worth anything. The CR coin has very few and the uncirculated one has even less. At least the proof has the enhanced reverse which isn’t all bad. This coin was hashed and trashed here many times when they opted to make it a protest piece.

  84. Sith says

    @markH – It may pick up in value but I doubt it as the uncirculated Girl Scout Commerative has a mintage of 30k, 35k if you add the young collectors set, and no secondary market value.

    Jon in CT – nice link, so simple a concept, but so few understand it.

  85. MarkH says

    I did read all the comments on the CR coin…they weren’t exactly laudatory. Oh well, I bought them just to make my collection complete.

    MarkH

  86. David says

    As much as I like the idea of the dollar coins, I think its time to stop producing these. Nobody wants to use them and they end up sitting in government vaults. Heck there’s not even a spot for them in most cash registers. They will never ever work until the green back is withdrawn from circulation. Btw, the edge lettering stinks and having them have $1 instead of ONE DOLLAR looks like a Chuckie Cheese token!

  87. Blair J Tobler says

    David, I agree on pretty much all your points, especially the fact that the year is on the edge!

  88. Hawkster says

    Pitt,
    It’s too bad you missed out on Cag’s trade offer. Back in my younger days, I used to ask my wife that when she turned 40 could I trade her for two 20’s.

  89. VA Rich says

    2014 KENNEDY ANNIVERSARY GOLD COIN 63,388 8/25/2014
    2014 KENNEDY ANNIVERSARY GOLD COIN 64,305 8/31/2014

    +917

  90. VA Rich says

    I lost count. Got a little obsessed over this week’s JFK sales, came close to asking if you wanted to split up checking on the hour and half-hour. Some other interesting numbers as well this past week.

  91. cagcrisp says

    Mint BHOF excel spreadsheet update for 08/31/14 (change from 08/24/14 spreadsheet):

    Gold proof BHOF 32,845 (down 0)
    Gold unc. 18,446 (down 0)
    Silver proof 268,067 (down 262)
    Silver unc. 132,074 (down 26)
    Clad proof 209,687 (up 1,614)
    Clad unc. 131,331 (up 1,031)
    Young Collector 19,186 (up 700)

    Gold BHOF oversold 1,291
    Silver BHOF oversold 141

  92. fmtransmitter says

    I always ask for dollar coins at the bank and $2 bills if they have them. It is like a treasure hunt. I got 6 consecutive crisp 1976 $2 bills and sold on ebay for about $55. Pretty cool. The dollar coins just help me save a little money in a different form other than looking at a computer for my balance.

  93. Bob R says

    Has anyone noticed if the bay is down, I have been unable to login, they do not recognize my user name or email, and their phone line is down, that makes me nervous.

  94. cagcrisp says

    Some General Observations from this weeks excel speadsheet . Excluding the FS coins, ALL gold offering showed increased Sales over the previous week which should be expected because of the price drop. The Magnitude of some sales is Surprising. The 2014 AGE’s have been out 22 weeks. Other than Initial weeks offerings, the 1/2oz had it’s Largest Sales number for the Year (+557) and the 1/4oz saw the 2nd Largest Sales number for the Year (+412).

    For the 1/2oz AGE Total Sales for 22 weeks is 3,962 so 16.36% of Previous Sales YTD came last week.
    For the 1/4oz AGE Total Sales for 22 weeks is 4,695 so 9.62% of Previous Sales YTD came last week.

    Another thing Surprising is the Weakness in last week’s Sales of the 1/10oz AGE(+265). Only Once this Year has the 1/10oz Failed to Outsell either the 1/2oz or the 1/4oz…

    So For Some Reason, Sales of 1/2oz and 1/4oz AGE’s were Strong last week…

  95. Dave says

    Jon in CT
    Great link! Reminds me of my brother’s old saying, “a gallon of gas was a quarter in 1964, and it will always cost a quarter.”
    Kicker? Just has to be a SILVER quarter.

  96. thePhelps says

    Dave – I am not able to log into the bay either – much as Bob. I can veiw many items, but if I attempt to purchase it requests me to log in. Then when I try to log in it tells me my password or ID is invalid. It also doesn’t recognize my email address… for password reset. If you try calling the help line you’ll get a message telling you there are techincal issues and then you get disconnected…

  97. gary says

    no problem here with Ebay except it’s running a little hinkey. Maybe the microwave oven in their break room shorted out.

  98. says

    cagcrisp, It used to be that the 1/2 oz. AGE proof didn’t seem to appeal to as many collectors as the 1 and 1/10th oz. coins. Their higher sells must be from those looking for new lows who have also noticed the low sells in the years of `12 & `13 .
    I have been wondering if the unc. AGE would be able to give the 2012 AGE a run for it’s money, but that would mean it would have to sell out prior to November.
    I know no one here knows the answer to this, but I wish I knew more about why the West Point Mint suspends sells. Is it capabilities, supplies, or constraints of time?

  99. cagcrisp says

    @Dustyroads, I’m Too am looking at the 1oz Unc AGE. It is going to be close before the year is out. I have both the 1/2oz and 1/4oz 2013 Proofs So I am hoping that they both exceed 2013 so I will Not have to purchase them this year. I gave my daughter the 2013 Buffalo and I keep trying to get her to trade me her old worn out 2013 for a Bright New Shinny 2014 Buffalo. So far she has not bought into that. I wonder who she learned that from?

  100. cagcrisp says

    Gold Kennedy Guesstimates (resorted from low to high)

    • GoldFishin 66,532 – 73,185 07/31
    • Jeff 70k 07/10
    • TimTom 70k 07/31
    • Longarm 70k 08/01
    • VA Rich 50k +/- 8k 07/10 ; 71,293 07/31
    • Louis 50k 07/10; +/- 75k 08/01
    • zeeman 75,000 08/03
    • bg35765 75,920 08/01
    • Dustyroads 86,500 07/31
    • Pittsburg P between 88,000 and 110,000 07/31
    • gary 92,586 07/31
    • SilverFan over/under 100k 07/11
    • VA Bob 100k +/- 5k 07/31
    • A Bob 100,000 07/31
    • VABEACHBUM 07/16 do not think it will either garner the interest or come anywhere close to 109k
    • Sith 60k 07/11; 100k to 120k 07/31
    • thePhelps between 75 and 100k the first week and a total of 125k 07/31
    • Stephen m. 150k+ 07/11
    • Clark exceed 200k 07/26

  101. cagcrisp says

    Mint BHOF Hard Copy Sales for 08/31/14 (change from 08/24/14 HCS):

    Gold proof BHOF 32,436 (down 0)
    Gold unc. 17,480 (down 0)
    Silver proof 267,612 (up 55)
    Silver unc. 131,295 (down 16)
    Clad proof 209,687 (up 1,614)
    Clad unc. 131,331 (up 1,031)
    Young Collector 19,186 (up 700)

    Gold BHOF Total 49,916
    Silver BHOF Total 398,907

  102. cagcrisp says

    The Combined Sales of the Unc Clad BHOF coin $ wise for Last week was $41,126.45
    The Unc Kennedy Anniversary Clad (K14) has been available for 6 weeks. Last weeks Sales $ were $41,581.05

  103. VA Rich says

    High, as people should have spent Labor Day $$$ on gas, wieners & watermelons.., maybe it was beer induced purchases! I’d like to see the next two weeks dreadfully low

  104. Pittsburgh P says

    Agreed… My investment in W&W Inc. (Wieners & Watermelon)took a hit too! Damn drunks pickin JFK gold over a holiday tradition! 😉

    No worries this dogs takin a flea bath next week… – 88 is what I’m seein, couldn’t even break 1000 after all the cancellations & other factors(that I make up as I go)

  105. VA Rich says

    Ha, too funny! Yeah, think you’re on the money, if there’s half the number next week or the following, I’d be surprised. You know the retailers aren’t buying unless for a tax write off.

    Watch these auctions closely Pitt, twice last week there were turkey shoots, don’t think we’ve seen the grand finale quite yet

  106. VA Rich says

    Ha, too funny! Yeah, think you’re on the money, if there’s half the number next week or the following, I’d be surprised. You know the retailers aren’t buying unless for a tax write off.

    Watch these auctions closely Pitt, twice last week there were turkey shoots, don’t think we’ve seen the grand finale quite yet

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