2015 Kisatchie National Forest Quarter Bags and Rolls

Today, April 20, 2015 at 12:00 Noon ET, the United States Mint will begin accepting orders for bags and rolls of circulating quality 2015 Kisatchie National Forest Quarters. This represents the twenty-seventh overall release within the America the Beautiful Quarters Program.

Kisatchie Quarter

The reverse design of the coin features a wild turkey in flight over blue stem grass with long leaf pine in the background. This was designed by Susan Gamble and engraved by Joseph Menna.

The United States Mint had initially provided eight different reverse design candidates to the Commission of Fine Arts (CFA) and Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee (CCAC) for review and comment. Seven of the eight designs had featured depictions of birds, either the endangered red cockaded woodpecker or the turkey. The CCAC had recommended a design featuring a red cockaded woodpecker in flight against long leaf pine trees. The CFA had recommended the selected design featuring the wild turkey in flight. The final design shows some slight changes from the original candidate including the removal of previous overlap of the turkey’s tail feathers with the tree and shortening the grass.

The obverse design of the coin features the 1932 portrait of George Washington by Joseph Menna. This design has been used in common for all issues of the America the Beautiful Quarters Program.

The United States Mint will begin sales for six different numismatic products containing circulating quality examples of the Kisatchie National Forest Quarters. The products contain coins from either the Philadelphia, Denver, or San Francisco Mint facilities, carrying the “P”, “D”, or “S” mint marks, respectively. The coins from Philadelphia and Denver are also released for circulation, while the coins from the San Francisco Mint are only available within numismatic products.

The products include 40-coin rolls with “S” mint mark coins available priced at $18.95 each, two roll sets containing “P” and “D” mint mark coins priced at $32.95, and three roll sets of “P”, “D”, and “S” mint mark coins priced at $46.95 each. There are also 100-coin bags available containing either “P”, “D”, or “S” mint mark coins priced at $34.95 each.

Each roll has special numismatic wrapping displaying the name “Kisatchie National Forest”, the state abbreviation “LA”, the face value of “$10”, and the mint or origin “P”, “D”, or “S”. Each canvas bag carries a tag with “Kisatchie National Forest”, “LA”, and “P,” “D,” or “S”.

An official launch ceremony for the Kisatchie National Forest Quarter is scheduled for Wednesday, April 22, 2015 at 10:00 AM CT. The event will be held at Alexandria Riverfront Center, 707 Main Street, Alexandria, LA 71302. A coin forum is also scheduled for the evening prior to the event.

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  1. cagcrisp says

    @Dustyroads, Thanks for the tip about buying the Mint’s boxes for the ATB quarters…

  2. thePhelps says

    @shoebox…yeah that is a little misleading. I think Menna scuplted the design – and John Flanagan is the actual designer?

  3. shoebox says

    @thePhelps: The Mint’s website credits Flanagan as the designer and sculptor of the original Washington quarter obverse and William Cousins who modified the obverse in 1999 when the 50 States Quarters program began. His initials “WC” are alongside Flanagan’s on all 50 States quarters.

    However, I believe the Mint reverted back to Flanagan’s original sculpted head for Washington because there was so much criticism leveled at the spaghetti-like hair Cousins had given our first president. Can’t be 100% certain of this but one can see that only Flanagan’s initials are on the AtB quarters.

    I believe the author of the above article simply erred possibly because he had just mentioned Joseph Menna in a previous paragraph as the sculptor of the reverse design, which by the way, is simply gorgeous IMHO.

  4. gary says

    A beautiful design by Susan Gamble. She was a great artist and coin designer.
    May she rest in peace.

  5. Boz says

    Edith Roosevelt proof has finally gone out of stock. I am torn between buying my Louisiana pucks now, or using today’s funds to pick a few more spouses. Louisiana gotta be available till end of the year while the 13 spouses all gotta be closer to the end.

  6. Boz says

    Being torn is a terrible thing.

    Louisiana bullion pucks today right at $100. So 7 almost 8 pucks for one spouse. I like gold but I also like silver. I am in love with Lou Hoover and Edith Roosevelt. The turkey I am not so in love with but the bird can’t help how it looks. Most of all I like low mintages. Seems like the spouses are already set in stone and will be low, while who knows how many more pucks will eventually come spinning out for 2015.

    Lou, Edith, the turkey? Or go take out a loan and get them all?

  7. says


    Brian “Boz” Bosworth. From an outstanding linebacker for Oklahoma U. and the Seattle Seahawks to commenter on the MNB. Welcome aboard.

  8. Louis says

    Boz- I’d go with a tube of pucks. Much less risk in my view. Mintages on spouses are low but premiums are high,’and to even get your money back on them you need gold to go a lot higher.

  9. thePhelps says

    Boz… I suspect the turkey won’t last til the end of the year. I would purchase it now and not wait, especially since you are looking to add to you FS set coins you may already have.

  10. fmtransmitter says

    I agree with the Phelps, I think Turkeys will go fast! Great 30 for 30 on ESPN about the “The Boz”..

  11. fmtransmitter says

    I think the MOD’s are on back order for the upcoming special sets..Anyone care to comment?

  12. says

    I also saw the ESPN 30 for 30 show on the Boz the other night. But, despite my less than serious comment this afternoon, I hardly think our Boz is the Boz.

  13. says

    First of all, I’m very happy that some of the MNB commenters are aware of “the Boz” –well, at least you and fm. But our Boz hasn’t posted any further comments since this afternoon. We’ll have to hear from him again to confirm or deny that he played a little football. And maybe he’ll even comment that he can’t wait for the football HOF commemorative coin. Then we’ll know if he is the real deal.

  14. Dave SW FL says

    I’m now an official member of the S-ATB quarter roll clan. With patience and diligence I managed to complete my roll set at an average of $21.74 per roll including shipping. The 12s are not boxed, but the 13s & 14s are all unopened mint boxed.
    I’m looking forward to a roll of each new issue.

    I’d like to thank all the bloggers who brought this issue to my attention.

  15. Dustyroads says

    Dave SW FL~ I hope you at least in part are referring to me, because the pleasures all mine. I’m hoping that someday there will be a release that comes in under a million, or maybe an error coin in 90% silver, it could happen since they are in close proximity to the silver used for the proof sets…… now I’m dreaming.

  16. bobo says

    Boz, if I had to choose between the Edith Roosevelt and Lou Hoover, I would go with the 2014 coin. It seems likely that all the 2014 first spouses will end up with lower mintages than all the 2013s. It seems that the mint minted only about 1900 uncirculated, and about 2400 proofs for each of the 2014s. Since no more of the 2014s can be made by law in 2015, this guarantees that the 2014s’ mintages will be lowest if both 2013s and 2014s are sold till they run out. No one knows what the mintages this year will bring, but in terms of investment, I would buy 2014s, not 2013s. It is remarkable that there are now three coins for sale at the mint that are guaranteed to have mintages of around 1900, some of the lowest mintages in the mint’s history, and these coins are not going like hotcakes. If I were a zillionaire I would corner the market on these coins. Some hedge fund could come in right now and own a quarter of total production of a US gold coin whose mintage is among the lowest in American history. Why is this not happening? Are these coins so vilified that no one can see the opportunity here?

  17. Jerry Diekmann says

    Bobo – in my opinion, nobody is cornering the market for FS coins because they are fundamentally unwanted, which translates to low or nonexistent demand, which translates to being worth bullion, no matter how “rare” they are. I think when the term “rare” is used, you also need to consider the demand for whatever the coin, or anything else for that matter, that underlies what is “rare”. These FS coins are “rare” because very few people are interested in them enough, or have the means, to pay the steep premiums the Mint is charging buyers. That is why I think these coins will never be in demand. Besides the idea behind them, showcasing spouses who, with few exceptions, played little or no part in our nation’s history. I can only think of Martha Washington, Dolley Madison, Eleanor Roosevelt, and Jacqueline Kennedy as first ladies who made a mark in American history. All the rest of them were just the wives of the presidents, and while they may have been decent and honorable women, they are really unimportant in our country’s history, and IMO they do not deserve being commemorated on any coin. I certainly hope that the Mint doesn’t continue this fiasco by going on to VPs. I wonder how many Aaron Burr coins would sell. Maybe they could make them out of lead.

  18. jhawk92 says

    From the previous thread…


    I hadn’t seen those Mint roll storage boxes. They are pretty nice looking, but certainly more expensive than a generic box. I collect the 3-roll sets, so that adds up fast; weight, rolls, and storage volume.

    Back on topic, I am in for the three roll set, though I will combine that with a few other things to save on shipping. Can’t wait to see the next puck.

  19. The Real "Cool" Dave says

    Off topic (slightly) –don’t see the price on the 2014 Bronze (4 pc) First Spouse set coming down, seems to have stabilized at approximately $40.00.

    Goooood Night All!!!!!!!!!

  20. im just a bill says

    the atb 5 oz bullion is what i collect, happy thanksgiving!

    i love the design. i i would have not known about this place if i weren’t for the quarter.

    cool story: i spent my presidential dollars (bank wrapped) when the fed stopped distributing them several years ago. it was a fun way to save money and a fun way to spend money. with one roll of each, P and D, it came to about $1000 dollars. i had acquired them at face value, so the only thing lost was time and an occasional postage. i spent them at grocery stores, restaurants, bars and fast foods ect… most everyone always stared at them as if they had a smartphone in their palm. and smiled at how shiny they all were. it took me around 6-7 months of dedicated consciousness to do it but it got done. you might say, i had a roll in my pocket and people were happy to see me.


  21. stephen m says

    The gold first spouse coins are unique in their own way. I would think there will be a demand for these in the future created by gold bugs and collectors with the cash to afford them. Just an opinion.

  22. merryxmasmrscrooge says

    off topic but April 15th, 2015 was the 150th anniv. of Lincoln’s assassination. It is said that Lincoln would appeaer as a ghost in the White House. I wonder if this has happened recently. Also do any of the 2015 pennies have a double die or shadow of Lincoln behind his potrait? Probably not, but it would be interesting.

  23. merryxmasmrscrooge says

    Each canvas bag carries a tag with “Kisatchie National Forest”, “LA”, and “P,” “D,” or “S

    Do you mean LAPD? lol

  24. Sith says

    @jerry – it’s the coins that nobody wants that turns into winners. The FS coins could still be winners.

    @bobo – Now saying that who can afford to corner the market in the FS coins? Again low mintage does not automatically equal winner. I can see the FS coins going up in value in the future, if you have full sets, or certain subsets, but I don’t see the rush to show off Lou Hoover to family and friends. IMHO Jackie O will be a winner, I will take my chances with her, and if she is just another FS coin with a very high mintage I can at least show her off to family and friends. I will leave it to other to corner the market.

  25. fmtransmitter says

    I got to visit the Guy Harvey Outpost with family, good time but over priced. Led me to the new GH series of coins, found a bullion for less than $20 1 oz silver round and a proof for not too much. I like the proof because they limited them to 1,500 AND put the serial number ON THE COIN to match the COA! Somebody is thinking what collectors want…I will add it to a piece of his art that I acquired. He’s a great marketer and his art is nice if you like salt water fish or any kind of fish as I have seen freshwater also and some birds…

  26. Dave SW FL says

    FYI bloggers
    Just spoke with mint CS regarding the N93 vs N96 price discrepancy
    93 is priced at $21.95 and 96 at $12.95

    The correct price is $12.95, so if you want the N96 at the right price, you have to call CS and ASK for a correction for your order.

    Apparently the digit reversal is beyond their ability to fix as they were aware of the problem. But if you don’t notice, they apparently don’t care!

  27. Dave SW FL says


    I have been tipping at bars and buffets and hotels,and casinos with the Pres dollars. Getting the same reaction. I guess we are doing our part to educate the populace!

    Now the SBA dollars are a whole different animal – they are accepted as quarters and you have to show a cashier the “one dollar” legend to get them accepted. This has been especially true since the ATBs started with the varying reverses. I do not tip with this issue to avoid being labelled a cheap skate an having the server mistakenly exchange it as a quarter!

    The Ike dollars really grab their attention, too

  28. Dustyroads says

    fm~ Yes, of course, It took me a minute, but I now remember his signature on fishing apparel.

  29. bobo says

    Jerry, I think the data show that you are not correct. If you look at the prices at which an MS70 or PF70 Cleveland or Harrison First Spouse coin sold on Ebay for in the past few months, the average is over one thousand dollars for a coin whose bullion value is now only about 600 dollars. These are ‘unimportant’ spouses in terms of American history. Now you might say that that is the ‘dumb money’ that is paying so much. But a market is a market, and if people are paying over $1000 now, then that is the coin’s fair value. And the recently sold out ER FS coins are going already for 1200-1500 dollars, and being sold on Apmex for 2100 dollars. Although there is a hefty mark-up, the 2014 FS uncirculated coins are guaranteed to have a mintage of about 18xx. I do not see how there is any risk in paying $770 now for a coin guaranteed to be among the lowest mintage in American history. I am not rich so cannot buy too many, but if I were, I would.
    Another point… numismatics has been largely a male hobby. It seems to me that the mint is making an effort to put more women and feminine themes on coins, such as the baby on the recent MoD silver dollar. Yes, militaristic themes might appeal to men, but women have half the money in this country, and I think the mint is wisely trying to broaden their market appeal. The majority of men might not like certain feminine themes, but I predict that our hobby is going to become increasingly less male-dominated. That is another reason to think that the FS coins have a brighter future than you predict.

  30. The Real "Cool" Dave says

    @Dave SW FL says, April 21, 2015 at 10:00 am

    Yeah, I still have a bunch of SBA dollars and use them sometimes. I have been told by some clerks, they don’t take Canadian money — LOL! I generally also tell (when using as tip) that., “This is one dollar.”

  31. Dustyroads says

    An interesting note on the Mint subscriptions list, I have the “S” quarters on my sub list, but the Mint processed the order at least an hour and a half before the 12:00 PM release time and have already been shipped. I however am still waiting for the 3 inch Bronze medal to be shipped which I ordered before the “not currently available” alert went up.

  32. cagcrisp says

    I’ve said before, I wish we had a Like Button on posts. I also wish we had an Unlike Button on posts. When reading posts you should always keep in mind the agenda the poster has. Personally I receive NO check from anyone. Haven’t received a dime from any outside source in years. I trade stocks and gamble. That’s it. That’s my only source of income. I COULD get health insurance under the ACA at whatever price I want (Almost free if I wanted because I can show as much or as little income as I want because I have a taxable brokerage account, a Traditional IRA account and a Roth IRA account) but I chose to buy a Higher policy outside the governments domain. I have Never sold a Coin to Anyone. Never sold Anything on the bay. ALL my coins will either be given away while I am alive or at my demise. I mostly buy Gold. I have Gold bullion that I have had for years. I was (and continue to be) bullish on the BHOF Gold coins, the Kennedy Gold coin and the Silver Turkey pucks. I will buy the Jackie Kennedy FS coin this year. My one and only FS coin. IT may not ever be worth more “financially” than what I paid for it, but to me it will be worth a lot. I will be ALL over the 2016 Mercury dime, the 2016 Standing Liberty quarter and the 2016 Walking Liberty half…
    So WHEN you see a post from me, I have a Gold agenda. I am Biased towards Gold…

  33. Boz says

    Thanks for the advice. Went with the kisatchie tube preorder with free ship as the price had dipped and that is what put me over the edge. But still leaning toward getting another Lou Hoover.

    No, never was a rock star or NFL player. But lived in Muskogee and Norman OK for brief periods of time if that helps.

    If I was a NFL or NBA star I think US coins is where I would park my loot. No fancy 48 bathroom mansion or 2 AM nightclub ventures in New York City for this boy. And I definitely would avoid pit bulls and elevators.

  34. cagcrisp says

    I’ve said before , I think the Turkey bullion puck will SO within 2 weeks IF prices stay at the current level and IF the Mint has adequate Supply to meet Demand…

  35. fmtransmitter says

    Dave SW FL says
    APRIL 21, 2015 AT 9:42 AM

    FYI bloggers
    Just spoke with mint CS regarding the N93 vs N96 price discrepancy
    93 is priced at $21.95 and 96 at $12.95

    The correct price is $12.95, so if you want the N96 at the right price, you have to call CS and ASK for a correction for your order.

    Apparently the digit reversal is beyond their ability to fix as they were aware of the problem. But if you don’t notice, they apparently don’t care!

    That vendor has to go, seriously!

  36. VaBeachSteve says

    @ Boz …. That Last comment gave me a good laugh!

    @ Cagcrisp …. I share your views of the BHOF gold coins. I jumped on the bandwagon when Va Rich was around. I also second the motion of a “unlike” button. Fortunately for me there’s only one person that irritates me but I won’t mention his name …. (Jeff).

  37. says

    @Cagcrisp, That is an interesting testimony you have there. Can you tell me in a nutshell what the difference is between trading stocks and gambling? My understanding is they are one and the same…

  38. fmtransmitter says

    @Dusty: He is all over the Florida Keys etc…I had same experience with a sub. They are very quick to get them out, even before they go live on website, almost to the point of being rude to say, subscribe so we can make better predictions. I won’t subscribe anymore because I don’t trust that company.

  39. says

    Any prediction on how long it will take for the uncirculated P turkey puck to reach a sellout, after its release later this month?

  40. cagcrisp says

    @2cents, lol. I agree. I’ve Told people before that the stock market was just gambling. I was a gambler Long before I started trading stocks…

    @Hawkster , I don’t have a feel for the P versions because of the premium vs. spot. I do think the P will SO if the Mint offers 30-35k. Selling out the bullion version Quickly could/should have a halo effect for the P version. Just don’t have any idea of the time frame…

    The Turkey bullions are my First bullion 5 oz ATB’s (and probably my last). Great Great Price point, Great design and CrossOver product to Turkey hunters…Just a Win/Win. The Only downside is spot price of Silver and I’ve got time on my side. IF Gold/Silver prices stay where they are currently at for the rest of my life….I’m Golden…

  41. longarm says

    Pool Shark-
    Thanks for the link but I have already “pulled the pin” with SDbullion. I’ve bought from them before and I like their CS .

  42. Dave SW FL says

    2 cents

    You can gamble in the market online, on the phone, or in any brokerage office without government interference .

    The edict a few years ago that closed online poker and forbade banks from handling gambling accounts forces players to go to the casino…….or risk playing in illegal games.

    Mustn’t let the people make a buck untaxed!

    Oh, you can’t write off gambling losses against wins like you can LT cap gains ( unless you are a professional gambler.)

  43. says

    @Dave SW FL, Doesn’t seem fair/consistent does it? I think the law regarding online gambling came from that guy in Las Vegas that buys Congress People…

  44. Louis says

    Bobo- The problem is it’s currently a one way market as far as people buying spouses whether graded or not. A market has to work both ways or it does not really mean anything. There is no wholesale market in them at all. Ask any dealer and they do not want them except as bullion because they can’t sell them for anything more than bullion. This could change someday, yes. But the old adage about people wanting tomorrow what they shun today is not a rule and it has not always been the case. There are plenty of exceptions and the gold spouses will likely be one of them. This problem also applies to proof gold eagles. Unless you are a dealer you will lose money big time on them if you try to sell one unless gold has gone up a lot, which has not happened in 4 years.

  45. CasualCollector says

    OT (sort of)


    I am looking at the form to submit coins for grading to NGC. Each coin as a “Declared Value” column. And it looks like the return shipping charges are based on the total number of coins and the combined total “Declared Value” for all of the coins.

    My questions is how do you specify the “Declared Value” will depend on the grade the coins get. For instance, a 70 is worth alot more than a 69. Do you have to put a “Declared value” based on what you think is the highest possible grade the coin will get, and if it grades lower that’s just tough luck — they will still calculate the return shipping charges based on the “Declared Value” you write in the box for each coin?


  46. cagcrisp says

    @Dave SW FL, Oh…You Can write off gambling loses without being a professional gambler. If you are a professional gambler you must pay self employment tax. You have to weigh the pros and cons as to whether you want to file as a professional gambler. You can deduct Gambling Loses as Other Miscellaneous Deductions on Form 1040 Schedule A. You just can Not deduct More than 1040 Other Income line…

  47. GoldFishin says

    @CC- unless the resulting grade from NGC is going to be really expensive, I normally use my cost for the coin to keep my insurance costs down. Sometimes I may split the difference between my cost and the cost of the resulting graded coin, but mostly I go with my cost in the coin before grading and sweat bullets until my registered package arrives. 🙂 I personally feel like it would be very difficult to make an insurance claim for more than you have invested in the coins at the time of grading….not saying it couldn’t be done, but you would have to obtain ample aftermarket sales evidence and also statements from a reputable NGC authorized dealer in order to receive the graded price on an insurance claim. So, you have to weigh how much your submission is worth and whether or not it is worth it for you to pay the extra insurance costs. You can always call NGC and ask them for advice.

  48. GoldFishin says

    @CC- I made the assumption in my above statement that you were talking about having moderately priced modern coins graded, not a bunch of classic rarities.

  49. Tinto says


    I think with gambling loss you can only offset it against gambling wins in the same year, no carryover. At least with stocks I can carry over losses if I don’t have enough capital gains to offset them with, and I can apply up to 3k deduction against other income if I don’t have enough capital gains until all the losses are “used up” …. (learned that from bad, bad, bad experience with stocks …one which I am still experiencing) Anyone correct me if I am not on track with this … I’d like to know too … 🙂

  50. CasualCollector says

    Thanks for your comments and insight! Yes, that is a good assumption (modern coins). I just wish NGC would provide a If “Top” grade, value this much. Otherwise value lower amount… Good idea to call them — I just tried but it was after hours so I will call them tomorrow morning .

    It seems USPS is their default shipping and insurance (if the customer does not have a shipping/insurance account with a specific carrier). I thought I read somewhere that USPS Insurance does NOT cover coins? I have to go look that up…

    Thanks again,

  51. GoldFishin says

    @CC-registered mail does cover coins, I have talked with USPS about the possibility of having to file a claim and the above info I gave you would basically be what you would have to do to file a claim. Documentation for value paid and the possibility of value lost in excess of value paid would have to be documented as well. Good luck!

  52. cagcrisp says

    Also keep in mind that some States do Not allow Gambling loses. Arkansas does. Arkansas has a horse track and a greyhound track and you can Very Seldom go to the horse track Without running into a state legislature in the Jockey Club…Hmmm…

  53. cagcrisp says

    28,000 Turkey bullion pucks have been sold to AP’s per the Mint numbers and we have 8 days before the P version is Offered by the Mint…

    Homestead SO with a Total of 35,000 being Sold. 20,000 Homestead’s were Sold in February and 15,000 Homestead’s were Sold in March…

  54. cagcrisp says

    Above comment I was referring to 35,000 Homestead bullion coins. Homestead P version shows Sales of 17,018 (a reduction of 1,389 from previous weeks number)…

    With Silver prices trending downward, It just make the P versions $149.95 a harder sell…

  55. bobo says

    Thanks for you reply Louis. But if people are buying and selling first spouse coins on ebay, is that not a two-way market? Please check the sales price of any of the 2011 or 2012 first spouses over the past several months, and you will see that they have sold for far above spot in every case. Why do wholesalers have to be interested in them if people are buying and selling them on ebay for often more than 50% over spot?

  56. bobo says

    Louis, for example, here are the average NGC/PCGS MS70 average ebay sale prices for some ‘minor spouse’ first spouse coins over the past three months:

    Julia Grant MS70 $1132 (five sold)
    Cleveland 1 or 2 (pooled, 11 sold) MS70 $1027

    The Lucy Hayes and Garfield are doing better than that because of their lower mintages.

    If spot is $600 it seems to me that there is in fact a good two way market in these coins. If I wanted to sell, it would not matter to me if dealers don’t want them if I can sell via ebay. Even after the ebay fees, that would be a decent markup over spot.

  57. JOSEPH says

    Anyone knows what happened to US Marshals Gold ? both Proof and Unc dropped couple hundreds on mintage.
    dealers had a large returns last week???

  58. Jerry Diekmann says

    Bobo – You could be right, but if I had the money to buy a FS coin, I would use that money or save up to buy something really spectacular, like a St. Gaudens eagle or double eagle. As for women buying these FS coins, I doubt that. Some women might collect different things, but I don’t think they find coins all that interesting and I have never met any woman who showed the slightest interest in coins; babies – yes, coins – no. Probably more proof that they are smarter than us men. Also, these FS coins are not really very attractive (except for the upcoming Jackie Kennedy coin), and I am, well, attracted to attractive coins. I could have maybe splurged and bought that Jackie Robinson $5.00 gold coin in 1997 or the FDR $5.00 gold coin, also in 1997. I admired both men, but I thought both coins were ugly, and 18 years later (hard to believe that much time has gone by) I still think they are ugly coins, and I still wouldn’t buy them today. I guess it just comes down to buying what you like. Same with FS coins. I’m a collector, not an investor, so I don’t really want to lay out money for an ugly coin because it was issued in small quantities because a lot of other collectors at the time thought it was an ugly coin too, and people years later will want to pay more money for it because it was “rare”. Some modern day coins are “rare” because they were ugly. I am not talking about contrived rarities that the U.S. Mint likes to come up with every so often.

  59. cagcrisp says

    @JOSEPH, I would Not read too much into the w/w numbers. If you look at a lot of w/w numbers in various Gold categories from the Mint you will see the same occurrence occasionally. Unless an item is getting close to hitting Mintage limits I think the Mint is lax with returns and they just don’t count them w/w but allow them to accumulate and hit them all at one time…

    The same thing happens with all Gold products. The 7 day return policy and fluctuating Gold pricing causes some sales to be returned…

  60. bobo says

    Jerry, I agree that there is no point buying coins that you find ugly. On the other hand, a lot of us here bought several of the ER FS coins because we could see a chance to get a coin that would surely go up in value. And boy has it. We paid under 800 a few months ago and now it is going for 1200-1400 on ebay. I see a similar opportunity with the remaining 2014 FS coins, but cannot afford any more, unfortunately, since I broke the bank buying the Eleanors. I might sell two to get money to buy three of the remaining 2014s though. I’m weighing the pros and cons on that one.

    I would also prefer to own beautiful coins, and agree that the St. Gaudens double eagle marks a high in American numismatic history. But rare is also good. Beautiful and rare is best. Ugly and common is worst.

    BTW, this shows some nice medals that St. Gaudens did:

    I did not realize what it says there, that Teddy Roosevelt was behind St. Gaudens, and had as his goal to make US coins as beautiful as ancient Greek coins. If we only had a leader like Teddy Roosevelt now to cleanse our society of modern robber barons and raise the standard of beauty on our coinage! If he could see some of the ugly or amateurish designs coming out now like the recent JFK dollar coin, or perhaps some of the FS designs, he would be rolling over in his grave. America should have great artists designing its coins. Where is the next St. Gaudens?

  61. GoldFishin says

    @bobo- I agree with you about bypassing most dealers and going straight to online venues. The world as we knew it is in a state of rapid transition and it is much more convenient for folks to buy and sell online. You don’t have to haggle and feel like you have been violated like you would after you have struck out at a coin show. As Louis stated, most dealers just don’t want to purchase anything that they can’t resell at a show or in their shop. If they can’t sell it, they can’t make a profit and it is dead money to them.
    I tell you what most dealers sell all they want in their shop is junk silver bullion for cash. My dealer friend has 4 five gallon buckets set up in which he tosses junk Silver Morgans, Half Dollars, Dimes, and Walkers, respectively. He never has to ship them off because someone is always wanting to pay cash well above spot and take all that he has. To most brick and mortar coin dealers it is all about turnover, if they can’t turn it, they don’t want it and very few people(if any) walk into a coin shop looking for FS coin, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t some people out there that never… ever go to a coin show that won’t buy them at a nice premium online.
    How the FS coins do in the future is anybody’s guess, but I would say honestly that it is easier to sell a coin while the series is ongoing and people are trying to fill holes or being exposed to the series. After the series ends and you no longer have free advertisement and interest dissipates, you have to ask the question, will the series be able to stand on its own merits or not?

    *Disclaimer- I own Zero First Spouse coins, but I do plan on purchasing a couple graded Jackie O’s to match my graded JFK’s. They will make a nice pair and I will be very glad to own them both.

  62. Brad says

    No gold coin price increase today. The average was over $1,200, but we were bailed out by the pm fix being back below $1,200. Too bad it’s still two weeks before Mamie is to be released!

  63. longarm says

    Gold is CASH, and in a proper note system, notes certify a real quantity of gold. However, we don’t have a proper note system, but a system where government promises are printed as fiat notes, and it is confidence in government’s ability to redeem those promises that ‘backs’ those notes. In our pure-fiat system, nothing is considered “cash” but govvy debt scrip, and the system is failing b/c the government has printed so many of these promises that confidence is failing in its ability to back those promissory notes with its taxation of future labor. The term “cash” has been deliberately corrupted in our economic system, to mean government promises printed on fiat. (The steps below treat gold as the hard cash it is, and treat govvy fiat as, well, NOT cash.) This definition is the first thing to get straight, and then the rest becomes clear.
    SO, step 1, in a fiat system, don’t acquire gold unless your hands are strong enough to keep it. If you have to trade it back for a bunch of fiat, then all you have done is use your REAL cash savings to support the fake system a little longer, and someone savvy with strong hands (such as, oh, say, a guy from China) winds up exchanging a bunch of fake fiat for this hard cash. (Using it as cash for other investments such as land isn’t a bad idea, BUT a pure fiat system necessarily undervalues cash, so do this ONLY if you are comfortable with overpaying for that land/other investment by a degree measured by how much fiat has been printed into the pricing system.)
    Step 2, timing is everything. Wait until the fractional reserve fiat tumbles down from its own unsupported weight. (Again, if you sell your gold into a fiat economy, you are nothing but a trader and may as well be trading ETFs, since your REAL cash has just been swallowed up by the black hole of fake fiat.) Fiat currencies must be replaced by some degree of asset backing. So, your strong hands should not let go of your real cash savings until the bad currency (fake cash) falls to earth and is replaced with a proper asset-backed note currency system.
    Step 3, when the asset-backed currency replaces the gov-fiat currency, THEN you allow your asset to be officially valued according to this system (that is, insofar as you have confidence in the government’s ability to value it adequately). For some, that will mean using their cash (gold) to buy other investments such as land, or art, or stocks, whatever. The cash is real, so you better be using it for real assets. For others, they may want to hang onto these same cash savings, either for retirement or medical emergency or capital expense someday, or just b/c they like banked savings. Some may still keep their gold secret, if they lack confidence in government’s ability to value it fairly and adhere to a fair valuation system. So its disposal in an asset-backed currency system is up to you, as the owner of your cash holdings.
    Step 4, make sure you and yours, especially your kids, know the difference between cash and government debt promises. Make sure they know enough that the government does not get away with trying to tax your CASH SAVINGS, which of course, is your banked gold.
    Step 5, when the asset-backed currency falls back into government control and the government (inevitably) begins trying to dilute it back down to a pure fiat system, avoid letting their “schools” confuse your kids about the difference between real, hard money savings; and speculative investments of any kind; and the worst kind of currency, which is pure government promises printed on notes or issued by computer keystrokes, fake ‘wealth’ created by counterfeiters out of thin air and backed by nothing but confidence in government’s future power to tax. There’s a good reason that “full faith and credit” is also known as a “confidence” game.

  64. Dave SW FL says

    Nice dissertation , Longarm .

    I hold all hard cash except what I can flip for more fiat to buy even more COLD, HARD cash!

  65. CasualCollector says


    I took a peek at the 2014 CC Sets today at the USMINT site, and noticed they changed the “status” to a new “Currently Unavailable” status (vs. Out of Stock). What’s going on — why in the world aren’t then labeled “SOLD OUT” yet?

  66. bobo says

    Right on longarm! If people really want to understand the scam that is fiat currency backed by empty promises, watch this half hour movie:


    And if you have the time, watch the long movie ‘the money masters’ also on youtube. It just might change your views of money fundamentally.


    Both are excellent. Once you understand the fiat scam, and who is behind it, and the soft coup that happened in 1913 with the founding of the Fed (not coincidentally the year they started the income tax and IRS) you will want to get out of paper as fast as possible before everyone else tries to. There is a reason the Chinese and Russians central banks are hoovering up gold. They can see what is coming down the pipe and are getting ready.

  67. daveb says

    If the Chinese are so smart for accumulating gold because the dollar is going to crash, ie the credit – worthiness of the us government is found to be lacking. Why do they hold so much US government debt? Which also relies on the credit worthiness of the US government. Possibly a hedge? Possibly stockpiling for future industrial use?

  68. bobo says

    If the Chinese dumped trillions in treasuries, they would trigger a run on the dollar, which would hurt their own dollar-denominated assets. I am sure the Chinese are playing a very long game, getting rid of dollars and treasuries at a slow rate, buying up gold, getting around the petrodollar with bilateral trade agreements. They can see that the US is in rapid decline and that the petrodollar system that undergirds our reserve currency status is breaking down. But they have to be very careful not to give the wounded tiger an excuse to attack them. Our military is still tops They take a view on a hundred year timescale, and we are maximizing quarterly benefits. We foolishly gave them our industrial base to benefit short-term profits, but gutted our middle class in the process. No, the Chinese are playing their cards brilliantly. The yuan may supplant the US dollar as the world reserve currency within our lifetimes. If that happens, our standard of living will go way way down. But we are still dangerous to the Chinese. They are letting us destroy ourselves. We borrow money to build bombs. They save money to build bridges and roads. Better have your kids learn Mandarin to give them a leg up in the New Chinese World Order that is developing. For me, the clincher happened last month, when all our major allies except Japan, but including Britain, abandoned the US’s demands, and joined the new infrastructure development bank that the Chinese are setting up. Even insider Larry Summers said that this was the moment that the US lost the battle to underwrite the world economic order. The world is changing very very fast now.

  69. Tinto says

    “. For me, the clincher happened last month, when all our major allies except Japan, but including Britain, abandoned the US’s demands, and joined the new infrastructure development bank that the Chinese are setting up”

    Yep, this after the US has spent billions and billions defending Europe (maybe in the trillions) and the US still does … while European countries like Germany won’t even spend up to the NATO target of 2% of GDP for their military to defend themselves …maybe they reason, the good ol’ US will come in and save the day so let’s spend instead on our economy and compete against countries like the US …

  70. David says

    An interesting quarter design. But I am not collecting this series. So ready for some normal re-occurring design. The relief on these are too flat for my liking,

  71. DeepSoth says

    There is a lot of talk about the Turkey Quarter, Has anyone seen an error coin as of yet.
    I ran across what i think is a DDO about a week ago. Very obvious doubling.

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