2016 Harpers Ferry National Historical Park 5 oz. Silver Bullion Coins

Yesterday, the U.S. Mint opened sales of the 2016 Harpers Ferry National Historical Park 5 oz. silver bullion coins to its authorized purchasers (AP’s). First day sales for the issues hit 33,000 pieces, pushing the overall total for 2016 5 oz. silver bullion coins to 213,000 units.

This means that combined production of 2016’s issues has officially surpassed the total for all of 2015, which wrapped up at 212,000 units. 2016 now has the second-largest annual mintage ever for 5 oz. America the Beautiful bullion coins behind 2011, which had the extremely high total of 465,100.

93725_SlabSMALL

As noted previously, The reverse design for the Harpers Ferry National Historical Park quarter was created by Thomas Hipschen and engraved by Phebe Hemphill. It features an image of John Brown’s Fort, where Brown and his men made their last stand during a raid on the Harpers Ferry Armory. Inscribed along the rim are HARPERS FERRY, WEST VIRGINIA, E PLURIBUS UNUM, and 2016. JOHN BROWN’S FORT is also included in the field below the building.

The obverse includes John Flanagan’s 1932 portrait of George Washington, along with the inscriptions UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, LIBERTY, IN GOD WE TRUST, and QUARTER DOLLAR. Bullion issues of this coin are struck at the Philadelphia Mint but do not carry a mint mark.

93725_ObvSMALL

These issues have an overall mintage limit of 150,000 pieces applied across all bullion and Uncirculated strikes. The Mint has yet to share a release date or mintage limit for the upcoming Uncirculated version of the coin, but this year’s previous Uncirculated releases have been capped at 30,000 units, allowing for up to 120,000 bullion strikes.

After selling 105,000 Shawnee 5 oz. bullion coins earlier this year, the Mint looks to have ended sales of the Cumberland Gap issue after moving 75,000 pieces. The Mint updates its figures for these coins irregularly, so it is difficult to tell whether the lower Cumberland Gap mintage is a result of limited supply on the Mint’s side or decreased demand on the part of AP’s. Mintage updates for the new Harpers Ferry 5 oz. bullion coin will be posted as they become available.

Facebook Twitter Email

BEFORE YOU COMMENT:

  1. Mint News Blog is not a retail website. If you wish to buy a coin or banknote, you should contact a reputable dealer. One of our sponsors (see ads at left and top of page) may also have what you’re looking for, so be sure to check out their websites.
  2. Per policy, we do not advise on the value, authenticity, or rarity of readers’ coins and banknotes. For this kind of assistance, you should contact a reputable dealer, preferably one who’s certified by the American Numismatic Association and/or the Professional Numismatists Guild.
  3. Vulgar and/or abusive comments will not be tolerated. Nor will trolls.
  4. Allegations of fraudulent or criminal activity against a named party, when said activity has not been proven in a court of law, will be removed.

Comments

  1. cagcrisp says

    “This means that combined production of 2016’s issues has officially surpassed the total for all of 2015, which wrapped up at 212,000 units. 2016 now has the second-largest annual mintage ever for 5 oz. America the Beautiful bullion coins behind 2011, which had the extremely high total of 465,100.”

    That’s Significant information for Anyone doubting that the Mint has flipped the Bullion switch.

    Comparing ANYTHING in PM’s to 2011 is Significant…

  2. MT says

    29 remaining: American $1 Coin and Currency Set 2015

    @Piotr: Perhaps more information on Thursday for the 2016 set.

  3. cagcrisp says

    An Eisenhower C&C sold yesterday at auction with 12 bids for $87.99. That’s an All time Low…

  4. Xena says

    Who’s in for Harper’s Ferry tomorrow? I know KCSO and Paddy will be there. Others?

    Was going to suggest meeting for breakfast at Hilltop House. But it’s closed. I think you can still go there for the view though. I plan on arriving way early. Don’t forget your cash for the quarters and try to get out of the ceremony right away otherwise the quarter line will be LOOONG. They started selling at Shenandoah before the ceremony actually ended.

  5. sharks2th says

    I plan to attend tomorrow and get there somewhat early to meet with KCSO and the rest of you guys.

  6. Sith says

    @MNB – It maybe hard to confirm, but my guess is that they ran out of plancets. See below:

    Cumberland Gap came out of the gate strong and sold 48K coins on April 18th. The mint then sold an additional 16K that week (5K on that Tuesday , and 11K on Thursday), or 64K in total for that week. Then not a single coin was sold until May 19th, when an additional 11K were sold on that single day. Then again nothing sold until today’s 33K. showing for Harpers Ferry.

    In other words, all the coins for both releases were basically sold on 5 days over a 9 week period. Its pretty clear, once they are released by the mint, the APs are grabbing all the ATBs. Its the mint that once again can not meet the demand for bullion.

  7. cagcrisp says

    @Sith “@MNB – FYI “The Mint updates its figures for these coins irregularly,” That is not a true statement, “Sales totals by month are updated every weekday by 5 p.m. ET.”

    I hate to be the bearer of Bad News but the quote “The Mint updates its figures for these coins irregulary”
    is a True statement. Contrary to what the Mint says in it’s statement the Mint is Very Irregular in updating Bullion sales.

    I look a Lot and it’s very irregular…

  8. Mint News Blog says

    @ Sith – good points on the Mint’s attempts to meet demand for bullion. As for the “irregular” updates posted for the 5 oz. bullion coins, I think that’s true. I check the Mint’s bullion figures several times a day; this year’s 5 oz. coins have not been updated daily (like AGE’s and ASE’s) or even weekly. It was more regular last year. As far as bullion updates, I post them weekly as “Precious Metals Updates” over at Coin Update, in case that’s useful: http://news.coinupdate.com/precious-metals-update-sales-of-silver-eagles-dip-after-holiday-weekend/ — Dan

  9. Hawkster says

    Just out of curiosity: Do you guys that plan to meet up at Harper’s Ferry tomorrow shed your MNB anonyminity by holding up signs with your Blog handles or will you be wearing tee shirts replete with your Blog handles? In other words, how do you announce your presence to your fellow MNB colleagues?

  10. Hilosilver says

    I’ll bet old man Harper was ticked off when John Brown held up in his ferry house . lol

  11. NC Stacker says

    @Hawkster

    To bad Dan doesn’t sell any hats or shirts with the MNB logo on them. That would be an easy way to find other members here.

    In the meantime, wear a baseball cap with a Silver Dollar taped to the bill.

  12. says

    For the most part it’s been coordinated.., with the exception of Paddy whom I believe is a former Marine, in which case I just yell, “Jarhead’s Suck!” …and then just start running and see who breaks out of the crowd on my tail
    😉 (a little squid humor there boys)

  13. Zaz says

    I’m not sure if I agree that there’s a planchet sourcing issue for the 5oz. If they had been planning to issue the max of 600,000 coins this year, you can be sure the Mint would’ve secured that many blanks from Sunshine Minting or from whomever this year’s current 5oz contractor is. The Mint’s sales of C-Gap were spotty and had they run out of inventory at the 75,000 mark we would’ve heard that the issue was sold out. I suspect there are leftovers of both the earlier issues, and the simple answer is that puck interest has peaked and probably the market is over saturated at this time. As the Mint is risk adverse, I predict they’ll make 45-50K of Harpers and Moultrie, and perhap a little more of TR bullion. None of the burnished this year will exceed 17.7K.

  14. Dustyroads says

    Apmex isn’t offering any better deals on the Harper’s ferry puck, so I’m assuming they still have an inventory of the previous pucks.

  15. fmtransmitter says

    I got the antique Thor. Why? Because i like Thor and I like 2 oz coins. Have some weight to them. And I like it. Buy what you like, sell what you don’t…

  16. Paddy says

    Just came back from Harpers Ferry. they are ready for the crowds. Parked in the NP center at the top of the hill and took the shuttle into the park no problem.. They are expecting a large crowd….it will be interesting.. Still thinking the train would be the best.Oh

    KSCO nope Navy SOSUS air sea and land….I’ll be the old guy with a Ben Hogan cap. I’ll hang out near the schutle stop at the enterance. I will be early and drinking a 7/11 Coffee with Donuts.

  17. Xena says

    Hawkster – well, that’s why I thought setting up a meeting location would work. Apparently KCSO has already been working it, I’m just not in the know.

    NC Stacker – knowing KCSO and other shipmates, I suspect Navy hats.

    Dan – do you know how many folks lurk vs post?

  18. fmtransmitter says

    Dan – do you know how many folks lurk vs post?

    ?? Yea, I second Xena question…

  19. Mint News Blog says

    @ Xena — I have some idea. As is the case with most sites, the vast majority of visitors/readers don’t comment. Of course “lurking” is harder to pinpoint since it mainly refers to those who follow the comment section closely. — Dan

  20. Zaz says

    Mini photos are up on the Mint site calendar for the ’16 C&C set (16RA) and the pt proof. The S code talkers NA dollar appears to be an unc coin. Pt proof looks good, expect frenzy on the 30th. No ML & HHL listed on either yet, individual pages are still placeholders.

  21. Sith says

    @ Dan, & cagcrisp – My bad, and thanks Dan for the reminder of your sister\brother website

    @Zaz- I would agree, but this is bullion, and interest in bullion is far from reaching a peak. Then again I was wrong about the sales so…but we will know with the next leg up in spot price.

  22. Sith says

    @Dustyroads – That could be true, but a lot of people per-ordered their coins below $16…

  23. Zaz says

    @Sith: Agree that bullion has yet to peak this year per ASE and other 1oz bullion sales. Pucks have been trending more than $17-$20 premium per puck, $3.49-$3.99 over spot per oz. in small quantities and there are tons of gov’t issues with way lower spot than $3.49/oz. Plus the other disadvantage is the unwieldy size inconvenient for stacking unless one buys the mint’s monster boxes & tubes. Just a thought,

  24. Throckmorton says

    I come in to gain knowledge. I have little knowledge to impart. So I suppose I am a lurker albeit a very benign one.

  25. sharks2th says

    Parking in the main NPS lot at 171 Shoreline Drive, Harpers Ferry WV, is probably the best bet. You can paste this address into Google maps for the location. The NPS site indicates June 8th is a free fee (or fee free) day at the Harper’s Ferry Park for the ATB launch. I would guess this means the shuttle is free as well. Here is the park website: https://www.nps.gov/hafe/planyourvisit/fees.htm .

  26. MT says

    Going…Going…Gone…
    2015 American $1 Coin and Currency Set
    “We’re sorry this product is no longer available.”

  27. So Krates says

    I’d like to reiterate that unmet demand should show up as a price increase (which it has not in the case of the bullion pucks).

  28. NC Stacker says

    KCSO there is no such thing as a “former” Marine. how do I know?? I am a son of a Marine Veteran of the Korean Conflict and he’s still taking names and kicking &^%

    Xena I can see all the lurkers with squid attire as everyone there with the same outfit just like in the movie Heartbreak Ridge. LOL

    And the C&C of 2015 has been put to rest.

    73’s

  29. Brad says

    I bought five of the Shawnee 5 oz. silver P coins today. I was the one who took it down from 22 to 17 if anyone saw that move. Illinois is my home state (Southern Illinois near the Shawnee National Forest to boot), and these sell pretty well in my area through local coin dealers. The nice representation of Camel Rock on the 5 oz. canvas strikes a chord around here!

  30. Karl Meyer says

    I can’t make an east coast event and nothing will get close to L.A. but i think all you guys meeting up should bring out your black mint give away bags you certainly would recognize each other. I read as much as I have time for this blog and I unfortunately don’t have much time to hunt and peck on a keyboard and make sure that my spelling is correct or my sentences make since I don’t want to upset the grammar police and the spelling nazis. That may make me a lurker.

  31. says

    Paddy, good deal, I’ll be inbound via the back door…, sea, air, land. I’ll be early, buy ya a fresh cup of coffee near show time

  32. says

    Karl, that’s a hoot, I think I have some of those still boxed and have yet to burn, maybe I’ll bring them and we can raffle them off so I can get my shipping fees back (for the bag)! 😝

  33. cagcrisp says

    @Karl Meyer, Don’t worry about the grammar police and the spelling nazis. Post away…

  34. Dustyroads says

    Sith say…. “That could be true, but a lot of people per-ordered their coins below $16……”

    Are you saying that you are aware of some Harper’s Ferry pucks selling for under $16. per oz. at the beginning of pre-sale?

  35. Xena says

    Throckmorton, Karl Meyer – wasn’t using lurker in a bad way, just to differentiate from the folks who post. The comment about MNB logo made me wonder how many are actually out there. A few of the regular folks set a high bar, but they have always been gracious to those of us with significant,y less knowledge to impart.

    Love the mint bag idea, I’ll dig one out and bring with. I’ll post my hat choice after I get up there. I’ll be the one posting from an iPad since I don’t have a smart phone.

  36. Dustyroads says

    Just did my research of what an internet lurker is…I had no idea it was such a big deal.

    Now I know why I got that page at ZH that looked like I had downloaded something bad. They wanted me to stop taking up their bandwidth.

    So, it’s now a bad thing to read on line without posting a comment…2016

  37. Goat says

    @Karl Meyer
    If that is true I should of been kicked off a long time ago. I write like I talk and my speech is at a low level sometimes, well most of the time. I am who I am (old dog new tricks?) but just wanted to say all of us have something to say wright/wrong and when we get kicked by the horse we get back up and ride that horse again.

    I wished my health was better at the time Shawnee had there ATB launch could of met someone from the area . Go Sulaki’s

  38. Goat says

    American $1 Coin and Currency Set 2016.. “9 days to sale date” I tried to zoom in on the picture to see what I can purchase and it won’t zoom in then looked for the description and not found , whats next TBD ?

  39. akbeez says

    I’ll be surprised if Shawnee is really GONE this early in the play, but the Mint always holds the card. With the higher overall mintages this year, figured the P versions would be dogs. May be wrong if this is it. If so, it will be close to 8th overall place low P mintage, near the low mintage Blue Ridge (and Bombay).

  40. Dustyroads says

    Goat, I think the Mint should come down on the mintage some since the 90,000 from2015 was too many. I would like to see 50,000, but maybe something in the middle.
    I tried enlarging also but the Mint has made it impossible to identify anything in the picture. It should be the same as the others (enhanced) so, with hopefully a lower mintage it will be a hit. I like all the Native American designs, but liked the 2015 the most.
    The Mint really has dealt out the surprises over the last few years with these dollar coins, so there is the possibility that this offering could be one of those special offerings. Who knows, maybe less than 50,000.

  41. DBR says

    Most of the time I browse the comments and they are fun and informative. Coin collecting is a hobby for me and not a business, so my approach to this blog is different. I’m observing and learning more than I’m contributing so thank you to the really “hard core” numismatists who impart their knowledge and wisdom.

    I opine rarely. But I do like the humor and even the feistiness from the dialogue. The posters to this blog are passionate about many things. That’s fine by me, it’s better than indifference or just numbers and statistics. I like seeing some of the contributors’ personalities shine through.

    I certainly don’t want to spend time on a blog run by Artificial Intelligence. I think visitors to this blog should be able to opt to be as visible or anonymous as they choose.

    Maybe MNB will share the general readership numbers. But it isn’t always a question of quantity, it is quality as well. I think the comments offer a variety and readers can sort through various conversions and threads. A good cross-section of coin enthusiasts from around the country seems to be represented here.

    Thanks again to those whose time and energy make this a blog worth having and visiting frequently.

  42. So Krates says

    John Brown was a true American hero who would be labelled a domestic terrorist today. His raid was one of the most important events in US history and illustrates the influence an extremely dedicated individual can have. While there, I’d encourage any event attendees to try and absorb some historical perspective in addition to coin fun.

    “Had I so interfered in behalf of the rich, the powerful, the intelligent, the so-called great, or in behalf of any of their friends, either father, mother, brother, sister, wife, or children, or any of that class, and suffered and sacrificed what I have in this interference, it would have been all right; and every man in this court would have deemed it an act worthy of reward rather than punishment…Now, if it is deemed necessary that I should forfeit my life for the furtherance of the ends of justice, and mingle my blood further with the blood of my children and with the blood of millions in this slave country whose rights are disregarded by wicked, cruel, and unjust enactments, I submit; so let it be done!” – John Brown at his trial

  43. Xena says

    So Krates – thanks for the quote. It’s been years since I’ve been to Harper’s Ferry, looking forward to letting the history soak in today.

  44. cagcrisp says

    @Dustyroads, I’m in the camp for around the 90,000 current Mintage. I wouldn’t have the low HH limit of 5 that they originally did in 2015. IF in 2016 they Don’t SO then at that time I would look at reducing Mintage for 2017but as long as people are buying at the 90,000 level I would let them buy…

  45. Sith says

    @Dustyroads – No, what I’m saying is that APMEX pre-sold some of Harpers at this price point when spot was lower, why would they drop the price when silver’s spot price is now higher

  46. Sith says

    @Zaz – No arguments, they obviously are not as popular as some other forms of bullion, but a rising tide lifts all boats.

  47. cagcrisp says

    Platinum currently over $1,000.00. Just in time for a price increase for Launch.

    OH well…

  48. Xena says

    There’s a small parking lot between 340 and town (200 ft from Appalachian Trail, next to river) that’s just in the park and empty now except for me and 2 others. If you want to avoid the shuttle, this is the place to be. Will hang out here a bit longer to see if these dark clouds blow away.

  49. cagcrisp says

    The 500th OGP 2015 Platinum Proof sold yesterday for $2,025.01.

    That’s $74.70 Above their 180 DMA (for those that love numbers and statistics)…

  50. says

    There’s that blue sky they were calling for.

    I’ll be making my way over to mint tent around 9.., with a black bike in a black jacket, black hat, black gloves and a brilliant DMPL Volcanoes Puck strapped to a gold chain around my neck, can’t miss it! 😉

    Just kidding about the black bike, more earth toned at the moment.

  51. says

    2016 Native American C&C sets appears to celebrate the Code Talkers and shows a WWII radio set on the packaging, and of course the first series of serial numbers are hidden, so take a wild guess

  52. MT says

    To all those attending the festivities in Harpers Ferry this morning, I hope all went well with the storms blowing through around 10 AM. The same line of storms just passed through my location — power flickering on and off. The weather report for Harpers Ferry shows 50 mph wind gusts arrived right at the worst time. Hopefully all MNB-identifying hats, gloves, and newly acquired rolls didn’t fly off into the Shenandoah. Looking forward to reports from the attendees on how things went today.

  53. says

    It went well, a brief downpour lasted a few minutes and then the sun reappeared.., absolutely gorgeous out here now.

    Xena, Paddy, & Sharks2th – an absolute pleasure to make your acquaintance and thanks for your comradery. It was fun, a good day indeed !
    😃

  54. Zaz says

    @Sith: You’ll have no arguments from me on that score. The pucks are collected by many for their changing reverses, whereas there is something to be said for the stability of static obverses and reverses, in that they stackable if they are from a known and trusted source if bought from a reputable dealer particularly in rolls of 20. Just today I got a flash sale notice from APMEX for a roll of 20 2016 ASEs for $391. Too bad the flash sale didn’t come yesterday morning when that same roll could’ve been $374! Gotta roll with the tide.

  55. Paddy says

    Just returned from Harpers Ferry,
    after a stop off at a local bar —- Had a really great time with Xean, KCSO and Sharks except for the trip to the Post Office. This Squid cant walk up steep hills and then back down (Old is the word) but if asked I would with this group. Take Care you all.

  56. Qui Transtulit Sustinet says

    Long time near daily visitor, first time poster. Raised in Connecticut, two towns away from the birthplace of John Brown (Torrington). Have lived in coastal West Florida for the past 25 years.
    Have other hobbies, including (mainly beach) metal detecting and gardening.
    Appreciate gold, but silver is a lot closer to my typical price point. Collect both styles of pucks (only designs I like), silver ATB quarter sets, ANA Convention sets, and yes, even bronze medals (mostly USM and MACO) as well as many other coins and medals..
    Enjoy a spirited political discussion more than the next person, but don’t feel this is the forum for it.
    If you want to pick fights, don’t bother—I won’t respond. See… I am a regular reader. I hope to contribute.
    Kudos to Dan and the posters who contribute and attempt to be cordial.

  57. Louis says

    Good that some of you were able to meet and greet.
    That was my friend Tom on stage in the yellow shirt.

  58. Dustyroads says

    If anyone has pictures they would care to share of the launch or a link, that would be great. The area some of you guys get to live around up there is absolutely beautiful. Glad you guys got to get out and enjoy the day.

  59. Paddy says

    Louis we where sitting listening to the speakers and waiting to get in line for the rolls when the rain hit. Wish we would have known. There was a lot to do and see had a great time. It was a quick down pour only last 10 mins or so. It was a very nice day and the rain didn’t do any damage. There is many other NP in the area mostly Civil War sites in the greater area. I have been to most of them but Harpers Ferry and the area around it is very special.

  60. Dustyroads says

    Just saw the interview of Phebe Hemphill. She stated she was a descendant of John Brown. I distinctly remember someone here saying they were a descendant of him too.

  61. fmtransmitter says

    Qui Transtulit Sustinet says
    JUNE 8, 2016 AT 4:37 PM

    Long time near daily visitor, first time poster. Raised in Connecticut, two towns away from the birthplace of John Brown (Torrington). Have lived in coastal West Florida for the past 25 years.

    Pinellas County?

  62. Xena says

    Dusty – having Dropbox issues, but I’ll post a few pix. Nothing great, I put the camera away when the rains hit.

    Was a beautiful day even with the shower. MNBers Paddy, KCSO and Sharks2th were good company. Was a pleasure to meet you guys.

    Louis -I have a couple pix of the stage but I don’t see a yellow shirt. Was going to get closer for some better pictures (we were in the last row) but that’s when the rain hit.

    Welcome QTS!

  63. MarkInFlorida says

    Wish I could meet up with you guys. You should make a group photo and post it somewhere so we can know who’s talking here.

  64. earthling says

    That John Brown was some sort of radical guy. I’ve just done some light reading on him. I think I’m going to be reading a lot more in the coming days.

    This ATB series of Coins is turning into a really good thing. It brings sites of interest to light. It brings new life to our history.

    I’m looking forward to getting the Harpers Ferry P-puck and when I do, I’m sure I’ll value the History very deeply. Especially after my visit sometime in the near future.

  65. So Krates says

    John Brown had around twenty children so I’m not surprised lots of descendants pop up. After his execution his body was laid to rest in upstate NY near Lake Placid on his family farm and his grave can be visited there today.

  66. Qui Transtulit Sustinet says

    Goat—Thanks for the welcome to the board. I have enjoyed your posts for many months.

    Xena—Thank you for your welcome. I also collect one and two ounce silver coins and rounds. Have enjoyed your posts and pics.

    fmtransmitter—The Choctawhatchee Bay area (Historic West Florida, which once comprised the area between the Mississippi and Apalachicola Rivers). Some call our home area “the Panhandle”. We are east of Destin.

    If interested, see British West Florida (1763-1783),Republic of West Florida (1810), or Territory of Florida (1822-1845). My wife’s ancestors were among the first European (Scot) settlers near the Bay, arriving from North Carolina in 1820, before U. S. territorial status, and twenty-five years before Statehood.

  67. KML in KY says

    Hi everybody. I’ve been a lurker on this blog for years. Many of my auctions used to be featured on this blog they seemed to do better than the ones that weren’t featured here. I really appreciate that and would like to thank everyone for the great info you have given me.

    I can’t remember which contributor to this blog was ripped off by the Mint when they returned a gold coin but it also happened to me. I returned a proof and Unc Mark Twain gold for quality issues and was only reimbursed for the Unc coin. After about 6 calls/emails to the Mint I got no help whatsoever. They finally suggested I contact the credit card company which I did. After I gave them (the CC company) the info they requested they got me my money back. I urge the blogger who got ripped off to contact their CC company. There is no reason to be ripped off.

    Another thing I would like to share that I’ve seen discussed on MNB is I don’t understand why PCGS coins often go for more money than NGC coins. I’ve sent many perfect looking coins to PCGS only to get 69’s back. At the same time I’ve purchased PCGS 70’s from dealers that have had contact marks and spots clearly visible to the naked eye. On the other hand when I’ve sent perfect looking coins to NGC they’re nearly always 70’s. Also I’ve never bought an NGC 70 that had any obvious flaws. I no longer am a member of PCGS just NGC. I’m sure other people have had different experiences but this has been mine.

    Sorry to get off topic. Just felt like sharing. I’ll try to contribute more often.

  68. KCSO says

    “I’ve sent many perfect looking coins to PCGS only to get 69’s back. At the same time I’ve purchased PCGS 70’s from dealers that have had contact marks and spots clearly visible to the naked eye. On the other hand when I’ve sent perfect looking coins to NGC they’re nearly always 70’s. Also I’ve never bought an NGC 70 that had any obvious flaws. I no longer am a member of PCGS just NGC.”

    – DITTO; I have had the EXACT same experience, plus I’ll up you one by saying my gold Moderns have red spots on my BHOFS and Kennedy’s.

    There is no question in my mind that dealers prefer PCGS as they receive 70’s regardless of the condition of their coins, while small individual submitters comprise the bulk of the PCGS 69 population.

    It’s really a disappointment to purchase a PCGS slabbed coin that clearly has issues and then have it turn orange on you!

  69. GoldFishin says

    @KML- NGC is Beginning to close the disparity gap in price to PCGS, especially in moderns, the last two notable coins that you can witness this is with the ’15 Platinum Proof and now the ’16 Mercury gold. I think the message that collectors have been getting out there is that PCGS holders have ruined coins and why take a chance until we have a few years of proof that PCGS holders are indeed now inert.

    DITTO with the grading thing…..I don’t have time this morning, but PCGS is not fair to small collectors, they deserve what they get in my opinion…..less business.
    I would like to add that the years 2011-2014 are the years that PCGS holders seem to have a problem toning and tarnishing coins. I still buy classic PCGS coins, cause i have to in some cases, but I avoid these years when doing so.

    Welcome to all the NEW posters….glad to hear from you all!

  70. So Krates says

    Excluding the gold spotting issue, the bottom line is that PCGS grades more conservatively. The modern 69/70 slabs may have some anomalies, but the market has decided that all things being equal, PCGS has tougher grading standards. However one should always buy the COIN and not the label/holder.

  71. joe#2 says

    Hoping my 2015’s and 2016’s pcgs coins will be fine. I have seen 2011-2014 pcgs coins look fine as well. Maybe you just have to be lucky…

  72. joe#2 says

    So Krates.. It seems to be imo, Most of the new generation people buy the holder and NOT the coin.

  73. cagcrisp says

    So Krates says

    June 9, 2016 at 8:24 am

    “Excluding the gold spotting issue, the bottom line is that PCGS grades more conservatively.”

    Here are the results for the Winged Liberty head dime:

    NGC:
    69 570 12%
    70 4,353 88%
    Total 4,923 100%

    PCGS:
    69 2,763 10%
    70 25,804 90%
    Total 28,567 100%

    SO…Bottom line the NGC is grading Winged Liberty head dimes more conservatively…

  74. cagcrisp says

    There has been One Large bay seller that has dominated 70’s for the 2015 High Relief Liberty. More than 50% of ALL 70’s have been sold by One dealer. This dealer only offers 70’s and this dealer only uses PCGS.

    Currently, the Same dealer is a Major player in selling Graded 70’s for the Winged Liberty head dime and AGAIN only PCGS and Only 70’s.

    No idea Where he/she goes with the 69’s because they don’t sell any 69’s on the bay (that I have seen. I have looked at ALL the HRLs but I really don’t look much at the graded dimes)…

  75. Louis says

    Thanks, CC for the dime stats. I think what is most significant is how the # of coins graded by NGC is so much smaller than those that were sent to PCGS. Yesterday I saw an NGC 70 ER on sale for $260 and had an eBucks offer of 8% back, so I paid $240 even though the coin is still regularly bringing $40-50 more than that. I figure that is the right price point (cost of raw plus grading cost for 70).

  76. cagcrisp says

    So Krates says

    June 9, 2016 at 8:24 am
    “However one should always buy the COIN and not the label/holder.”

    Concerning graded coins, I wish someone would explain to me how to ” buy the COIN and not the label/holder” when some people buy Only online? How do you go about separating the coin from the label/holder? You are buying a GRADED coin. How hard a concept is that to understand? When you buy a graded coin you are buying a GRADE from a Specific Company. When you buy a 69/70 it has been GRADED by someone and like it or not it will be sold according to the parameters of a 69 or 70. I’ve never seen a listing on the bay that said “I sent this coin in for grading and I think it is a 70, however, it came back a 69 but I’m going to sell it for 70 money”.

    Pre ’33 Gold you better look Hard before you purchase Any Gold because even in grades there is a lot of differences. Modern stuff you can look all you like because IF you buy a graded coin you are buying the Grade/reputation of the company issuing the Grade and like it or not when you sell you are selling the Grade/reputation of the company at the time of SALE…SO…you better choose wisely about which company (you think) will be the Preferred Grading company when/if you decide to sell…

  77. So Krates says

    Since I’m addressing cagsrisp’s comment I will take the liberty of quoting myself. I said,

    “The modern 69/70 slabs may have some anomalies.”

    In your WLH stats it would seem that they are within the margin of error and the small difference in % of 70s combined with the large difference in sample sizes can be accounted for by factors other than actual coin condition. In the past I have commented at length about the two different labels (and standards) at ANACS. The coins in their yellow labeled holders for non-modern bullion coins are often graded equally or more conservatively than NGC or PCGS, but the purple labeled modern bullion holdered coins have lower standards that seemed to be based on non-coin factors (who submitted,how many submitted, etc ). I suspect the same thing might be occurring at the top two TPG just not as pronounced. When talking about grading, I consider the 69-70 bullion game an almost separate market segment. There is also a lot after 1933, but before modern bullion, that gets graded and the market tends to sort this material consistently into the PCGS/NGC/ANACS hierarchy.

  78. cagcrisp says

    In One of my above posts I mention One Specific player in PCGS 70’s for the 2015 High Relief Liberty and I mentioned that he/she is a player in the Dime.

    Doing a current search on the bay of “2016 Mercury Dime 70 PCGS” and the results are 342 listings for sale.

    OF those 342 for sale listings, this One Specific player has 189.

    SO…55% of Current 70 PCGS listings are by One Specific seller.

    Doing the search “2016 Mercury Dime 70 NGC” and the results of this Specific player is “No Results”.

  79. Yes, But...You Can't Take It With You says

    Louis:

    Thanks for another good article. On the Truman set, you should have written “Reverse Proof dollar” rather than “Enhanced Uncirculated dollar”. Your article made me happy all over again that I have a 2015 APE!

  80. So Krates says

    cagcrisp says, “I wish someone would explain to me how to ” buy the COIN and not the label/holder” ”

    This is coin collecting 101. YOU may be buying a GRADED coin but I am buying a COIN with a plastic case and a fallible human opinion printed on a label. The TPG co.’s grade is a tool. Like a home inspection and appraisal or a diamond that is accompanied by a certificate. If it was the final say all and be all, then there would be no need for CAC. The modern bullion 69/70 market is different than the rest of coins being graded and as many say it is a hyped up, artificial, label-based market. I rarely buy 70 coins (unless for regular non-70 prices) as I feel the extra value is temporary and/or is not attached to the coin. Even in this tricky market segment you can still buy the coin and not the label. Buy in person at LCSs, coin shows,coin club meetings, craigslist, estate sales, auctions, etc. If you feel the need to buy modern 70s online, buy from sellers with return policies and examine the coin when received. If ANY imperfections are found on the COIN send back for refund, rinse, and repeat. I can tell you from personal experience that it sucks when you buy the label while ignoring the coin and later realize you got stuck with an overgraded coin. You are then in the possible immoral position of trying to find another fool who will ignore the coin and rely on the label.

  81. joe#2 says

    KCSO? Is it the 3/4 ounce 2014 gold Kennedy or the Jacqueline Kennedy that has the toning and/ or spotting issue?

  82. GoldFishin says

    @SoKrates- I would agree that PCGS has a reputation for more stringent grading standards, hence the premium over NGC graded coins for classic coins and in the past for modern grades also. However, PCGS has squandered a good portion of that reputation in the last few years because of their destructive holders and their failure to admit any culpability to its customers. The numbers in the past have indeed bore out that PCGS has a lower ratio of 70 graded coins than does NGC, but as others have stated, that lower ratio is at the expense of small collectors. There is no dispute about that, unless you have never sent in a submission to PCGS.
    I was surprised at Cag’s numbers for PCGS graded ’16 Merqs….both at the volume of coins graded and by the percentage of 70’s. Maybe PCGS is becoming a little more customer friendly. Only TWT.
    Oh, and IF you like your ANACS, you can keep your ANACS. Exception is with some of the older ANAC holered coins from the late 80’s and the 90’s.

    @Cag- I have also noticed that some large PCGS sellers have apparently found something to do with 69 graded coins.
    There are two possibilities that I think could be at play.
    ONE is that they have worked out some kind of bulk submission agreement with PCGS to not holder 69 grades. They still have to pay the grading fee, but not the holdering fee. Then they probably sell the 69’s, once placed back into the OGP.
    TWO, they either crack out the 69’s from the holder OR leave them in the holder and sell them in their shops, on their website, or at shows, where they don’t have to pay Ebay or equivalent fees.
    In regards to the seller you are speaking of….the last time I checked one of their submission percentages was with the Truman RP. They are always the first or second submitter to get their coins to PCGS because of their proximity to PCGS’s location. I personally believe they walk them in for grading.
    Anyway, this seller submitted around 50 Truman coins and received only one 70 grade back….the rest were 69’s. Now, of course they did sell those 69’s on Ebay because 69’s were getting good money. I was a little heartened by the fact that the seller in question seemed to receive no favoritism in this instance, but I’ve watched this stuff for years and I stick with my prior assessment until I see evidence to the contrary that PCGS snubs smaller submitters.
    I’ve gotten lazy about keeping up with a lot of population numbers and percentages lately for two reasons.
    1- I don’t care about many of the coins lately.
    2- You do a lot of the work for me. 🙂

  83. So Krates says

    cagcrisp/goldfishin

    Please name the eBay seller to which you are referring. Thanks

  84. GoldFishin says

    @SoKrates- I have a personal policy of NOT naming ebay user names, unless they are doing something that harms other collectors. Cag gave you enough data to find the seller.

    And because I was lazy again….I just now looked the seller up and it is not the one I was thinking about. Not from California.

  85. sharks2th says

    The Harpers Ferry quarter launch along the Shenandoah River Wednesday was very interesting. I was able to meet a few fellow members (Xena, Paddy & KCSO) and enjoyed their company and conversation while we were there. I’m sorry we did not see Louis to meet up with him. Other than the brief downpour of rain in the middle of the presentation, they day was beautiful as the sun returned. After the ceremony, we were in line to buy some rolls of the new quarters. After this we walked up the mountain from the river to the Post Office to get the rolls stamped.

    The Post Office was really busy since collectors were getting their rolls stamped with the two postmarks for Harpers Ferry. There is a stamp (the type used for hand cancelling letters) maker who has been doing custom postmark stamps for each of the ATB releases. I think everyone was impressed with his work so far in the series.

    While at the Post Office after the ceremony, we ran into the Mint’s Liaison to Congress (He is from WV). Our group was able to have about a 10-15 minute discussion with him regarding some of the issues discussed by many on the blog. We brought up the problems with 1) the “big boys” seeming to corner the market on limited products, 2) the lack of proper updating of the Mint’s Online Schedule and website, 3) the problems with collectors trying to get limited items, 4) we suggested more use of the “mint to demand/ordering window” for the collectible items to get around the big boys cornering the market (as was done a few years ago), and 5) the problems with speculators buying a lot of one item then not buying another once they get burned when demand does not meet their resale expectations (he said they have trouble determining demand for specific products).

    Using the “ordering window/mint to demand” would solve many of these problems.

    He mentioned they know they have problems with the handoff part of the ordering process when heavy orders are being processed by the credit card companies. He said this was to have been fixed with the new website, but it did not turn out as efficient as they wanted it to be.

    Xena asked him if he read the MNB blog and he indicated he thought someone at the Mint does.

    Xena or Paddy asked him about the remaining Gold Mercs. Of interest to those still looking for a Gold Merc, he said they were planning to release what was left of them later in the year AND would be releasing any returned ones as part of the completion of the sales and not melting them down! This gives some credence to those who have suspected the Mint of reselling returned items in the past. He indicated they would be sold according to the price chart, regardless of whether or not they were considered damaged by the people who returned them.

    I’m sure there are a couple other items we discussed with the Mint Liaison, but I can’t remember them at the moment. We really appreciated him taking the time to listen to our concerns.

    Thanks again to KCSO, Xena and Paddy for their conversation during the event. You guys can chime in if you recall anything I missed. I have a couple pics too I’ll try to post when I get a chance.

  86. fmtransmitter says

    D Rittenhouse says
    JUNE 9, 2016 AT 1:13 PM

    I see that an effort has been launched to promote legislation for a coin commemorating the 1620 landing of the Mayflower.

    I am for commeorating WHY they came!

  87. Louis says

    Thanks to sharks and others for the reports. I may have confused people. I was not there, but in addition to friends such as KSCO, my friend Tom Uram, president of PAN and a CCAC member and award-winning exhibitor at coin shows, was on stage at one point and sent me a pic. I’ve been so busy this week I have not had a chance to ask him what his exact role was.

    If anyone is going to the Baltimore coin show in July, we could meet up on Sat. I normally go on Friday, but the cheap commuter trains now run on the weekend too.

  88. Scott says

    Does the mint update their website on a regular basis? Here we are three weeks from 2016 APE release date and there’s no image and no other information other than the release date. That’s pathetic.

  89. Tinto says

    And I don’t see any images of the 2016 NA $1 C&C set …. scheduled for release June 16 ….

  90. earthling says

    Ha ha.. you think the Mints scheduling dept is lacking….

    Their Returns Dept off in the deep south is …… criminally lacking. Coins go in, refunds don’t come out.

  91. Tinto says

    @MT Thanks…Can you send a link to it? Appreciate it.

    I can’t see the image when I go to “Schedule” and click on the NA $1 CC nor do I see it when I go to Coins Programs and click on “NA $1 Coins” ..used both IE and Chrome, same result.

  92. cagcrisp says

    Here’s some stats for you.
    Under a current search of “2016 Mercury dime 70”: 2,159 Sold Listings
    Under a current search of “2016 Mercury dime 70 PCGS”: 1,199 Sold Listings
    Under a current search of “2016 Mercury dime 70 NGC”: 927 Sold Listings

    OF the 1,199 Sold Listings of the “2016 Mercury dime 70 PCGS” One Specific seller has sold 616 (51%)…SO…IF it wasn’t for One Specific seller the ratio of Sold Listings for 70 on the bay would be NGC 61% and PCGS 39% Even though the ratio of Total Graded 70s is NGC 14% and PCGS 86%.

    OF the Total Graded NGC 70s, 21% have been Sold on the bay
    OF the Total Graded PCGS 70s, 5% have been Sold on the bay and Only 2% have been Sold on the bay IF it wasn’t for One Specific seller…

  93. fmtransmitter says

    earthling says
    JUNE 9, 2016 AT 4:01 PM

    Ha ha.. you think the Mints scheduling dept is lacking….

    Their Returns Dept off in the deep south is …… criminally lacking. Coins go in, refunds don’t come out.

    Ok man, we been reading about your stolen coin for it seems years. Call the Mint Police and or file a report with your credit card company, Sorry but it’s getting old…BTW, I am a fellow Detoileter so I empathize w your situation and have been there. Stay positive, positive mental attitude is everything, I know it is HARD where your at but you KNOW it can and COUULD be worse!

  94. So Krates says

    So that data would suggest eBay re-sellers prefer NGC presumably because it is easier (or perceived easier) to get a 70.

  95. cagcrisp says

    1. Most Big Boys don’t sell their coins on the bay.

    2. The Big Boys use PCGS because it is easier for THEM to get a 70 (for whatever reason; GoldFishin mentioned reasons in his post)
    3. IF you are not a volume dealer (Big Boys) you get a fairer Perceived shake with NGC
    4. In the Past, several on here have submitted to PCGS and do not get Anywhere near the listed submitted pecentages of 70s and yet they submit to NGC and get within range of published 70s.
    5. SO…the perception is that the Big Boys get a better shake with PCGS and a non volume submitter gets a fairer shake with NGC.

  96. GoldFishin says

    Yea, Cag, we don’t even get near the percentage of 70’s after having screened about 40 coins and submitted the best 10. I can send the same 10 into NGC and get 8 -70’s and with PCGS get 2 or 3 if your lucky. Sometimes that just send you back all 69’s.
    I remember someone here sending in 20 or 30 coins to PCGS and getting back all 69’s. I think it may have been A&L futures…but I am not sure. KCSO prescreens all his coins I think and got screwed every time by PCGS. As you know, NGC different story altogether. Plus the coins that he did get a 70 grade from PCGS turned purple or orange or measled….oh my!

  97. GoldFishin says

    @Cag- your numbers are clear…the big retailers AIN’T cutting ebay in on the deal. They have a longer time horizon and are not is such a big hurry to sell that they are going to make Ebay rich. A lot of them have feeders on the Bay to get the buying public to their website where they cut them a little better deal maybe or the same deal by cash payment with no fees. Some have enough traffic without feeders. They may also have European or Asian buyers that are looking to put some of their idle cash into PM storage instead of into negative yielding instruments.

  98. KCSO says

    Yeah, it was me. I’m strapped for time though can provide more on it details later.

    It was 24 well centered, well struck first shipment of silver BHoFs and 6 clad.., 69’ers they came back and now tarnished Orange, brown, & light purple.

    At least $2,200 down the toilet.., boy it makes me hot thinking about it, not to mention the $5’s.

    Had a beautiful, well struck Proof-like UHR sent to PCGS in ’14, came back MS-69.

    In February I sent it to NGC because I knew it was Prooflike.., came back MS-70 PL.

    I had to buy a few 70 BHoFs to complete a couple sets from dealers.., the coins weren’t even close to what I had sent it. They’re such a racket.

  99. MT says

    On a related not, it turns out that 15RA is only “mostly dead” — another 35 have been found on a back shelf.

  100. Scott says

    On the subject of grading. It’s just my personal opinion, but I don’t see the sense in paying much of a premium for modern coins graded 70. I’ve seen some graded 70s that were far from perfect and also some 69s that were virtually flawless.

  101. kyridgerunner says

    I had some ASE all graded by PCGS MS 69 and PR 69. I checked them last year and they had developed Milky Spots. I called them and they said if I sent them back for $5 each they would fix them. I did send them in and you can’t tell where the spots were, but the shipping cost me $$$$. I have just decided that I won’t have any graded by PCGS.

  102. Jason says

    Thanks for all this information. I started my own collection and continue my grandfather’s passion. Look forward to hearing more.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *