2017 palladium American Eagle design mock-ups revealed

Mockup of the proposed design for the 2017 palladium American Eagle coin. (U.S. Mint photo, via Coin World)

Mockup of the proposed design for the 2017 palladium American Eagle coin. (U.S. Mint photo, via Coin World)

This post was modified on the evening of March 17 to add the image-comparison slider, and to modify the language about the obverse design, which suggested a more exact replication than actually exists.

In an article by Paul Gilkes, Coin World has shared U.S. Mint mock-ups (shown above) for the 2017 palladium bullion coins. The obverse closely follows (with a few subtle differences) the classic Winged Liberty dime obverse by Adolph A. Weinman. The word LIBERTY encircles the field above the effigy, while IN.GOD / WE.TRUST is placed in the lower left field, the designer’s initials in the lower right field, and the date, 2017, below Liberty’s neck. The matte gray surface of the mockup makes it easier to see certain details that are often obscured by wear or glare on the tiny silver coins: for example, the horizontal braid under the back of Liberty’s cap, and the folds in the back of the cap’s fabric.

Obverse comparison—move cursor over image from left to right:

The reverse recreates the main design of the American Institute of Architects’ gold medal reverse, with a few interesting differences. The dramatic, left-facing eagle and the rock it stands on are essentially the same as on the medal, as is the laurel sapling. And as on the medal, the eagle appears to be using its beak and right claw to pull the laurel from the rock. (On Weinman’s similarly designed Walking Liberty half dollar reverse, the sapling is a pine, representing a young America, and the mighty eagle is protecting it. Although I haven’t found a specific reference to the symbolism on the AIA medal, it would appear that, at minimum, the eagle is unimpressed by accolades.*) Added to the original design are a raised rim and the legally mandated UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, placed above the eagle, and 1 OZ. Pd .9995 FINE / E PLURIBUS UNUM, placed below. (“Pd,” of course, is the abbreviation for “palladium.”) The final mandated element is the denomination, $25, which is placed at the far left.

The fineness, metal, and motto, which are incused, replace Weinman’s name and the date, which were raised elements on the medal. Another reversal of relief is seen in the section of the laurel below the eagle’s claw: on the medal, the base of the plant and beginning of its roots were raised, whereas on the mockup, they are recessed into the rock, along with the surrounding text. The wedge-serif typeface throughout the reverse is in keeping with the Winged Liberty dime’s original typeface, which is replicated (again, with subtle differences) on the obverse.

The Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee (CCAC) was scheduled to meet in D.C. yesterday (March 15), but inclement weather caused a postponement of the meeting and of the review of the mock-ups. The Commission of Fine Arts reviewed the Mint’s mock-ups today and kindly shared them with Mr. Gilkes. Meanwhile, the CCAC’s meeting has been rescheduled for March 21 at 10 a.m.

To read Paul Gilkes’s original article, which includes the Mint’s comments on the proposed design as well as additional information, click here.   ❑

* In the comments, RSF writes, “The reverse design was commissioned for an American Institute of Architects award. It follows that the eagle is in the process of gathering building materials.” That seems quite plausible, and I wish I had thought of it myself.—Editor

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  1. John Q. Coinage says

    This would be very nice. But, palladium price$ have shot up the past year+ making this an over $1,000 mint item @ present, based on the Mint’s profiteering/pricing schedules. Would have been great when it was like $450 an oz.

  2. cagcrisp says

    The 2012-P Hawaii Volcanoes and the 2012-P Denali have their own Specific Reasons as to why they will Surely be the All-time Lowest Mintage Combined “P” puck and bullion puck. I’m not using those two pucks in my analysis.

    Just How Bad is the Effigy Mound pucks?

    Well…Excluding the aforementioned Hawaii and Denali, there have been a total of 33 pucks and the average Combined sales of “P” puck and bullion puck is 66,470 (Fort Moultrie “P” is still on sale).

    Average of 66,470 combined pucks for a Total of 33 pucks.

    The Effigy Mounds puck has sold 19,500 bullion pucks (All-time Low is 20,000 for both Hawaii and Denali) and Launch week 14,363 for the “P” puck.

    …SO…Combined the Effigy Mounds has Sold 33,863.

    …NOW…My optimistic projection for the “P” could be another 2,000-2,500 pucks sold.

    …SO…My Guesstimate for Combined sales of the Effigy Mounds puck is 35,863-36,363.

    Just How Bad is the Effigy Mound pucks?

    …FULLY…45% LESS than the Average of Combined sales of the Previous 33 pucks (excluding Hawaii and Denali)…

  3. Ernesto says

    @cagcrisp what does all of that have to do with the story? Lol sorry but I think your comments should go with a different story.

    As for the palladium coin itself I think it’s lazy that the US Mint is reusing the Winged Liberty design. We just used it last year on a gold version to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the design. Can the Mint take the time to use new designs for a new metal? Geez how lazy!! I know it’s not easy to design a coin but still…

  4. earthling says

    Cookie Coins are not in my field of view , so Effigy Mounds don’t interest me. I do like American Indian Culture and in my youth I used to spend a lot of time looking for Arrowheads . I even sifted through tons of topsoil where a Pond was dug on the next door Farm, one Summer.

    All in all , my interest in the big Pucks seems to be gone. If they were to issue an UHR Anna Nicole Smith for whatever reason …. I might bite… but otherwise… I’m done.

  5. says

    I’d have to do some math (based on the density of palladium and typical thickness of coins of this type), but does anyone (maybe cagcrisp) know what diameter these would be issued in. The authorizing legislation only says, “A $25 coin of an appropriate size and thickness, as determined by the Secretary, that weighs 1 troy ounce and contains .9995 fine palladium.’’

    Also, it is amazing that this legislation was promulgated over six years ago. There was the required marketing study, and other associated delays, right?

    I personally find Adolph A. Weinman’s artwork stunning, but I do wonder if the authors of this Public Law 111–303 simply wanted to reuse these old designs, or if there was some possible lack of faith in the ability of the mint’s artists to create high caliber artwork (at the time this legislation was written).

    That is, as discussed in a recent MNB post (The Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee and a Few of Its Design Ideals) , the CCAC developed standardized design criteria, releasing their Blueprint for Advancing Artistic Creativity and Excellence in United States Coins and Medals in early 2011 (and Public Law 111–303 was issued in Dec 2010) .

  6. gary says

    @Ernesto… The Mint cannot devise other designs for a palladium bullion coin as the design specifics were made by the members of Congress who wrote the authorizing bill, so apply the laziness and complete lack of imagination on those members of the U.S. Congress. The 2016 gold 10th oz. Mercury dime is ample and appropriate use of the design. In any case, a palladium bullion coin will be very expensive with the U.S. Mint markup and out of reach for many people, especially with a metal that is not widely known to U.S. consumers.

  7. says

    Wow! This is an instant sensation!

    Looks absolutely amazing, so hope there’s an accompanying Proof coin!

    One and done works for me, though not written as such in law, though the fewer the better..,

    In the words of GEN George S. Patton, “Americans love a winner…”

    & this is a Winner

  8. Rhiggs says

    @Ernesto says ” I think it’s lazy that the US Mint is reusing the Winged Liberty design”

    Frankly, I would rather see the winged Liberty than some of the junk Observes the CCAC has forced on us.

  9. Mint News Blog says

    @one fine dime, the last thing I’ve seen regarding the diameter is that it will likely be “somewhere between 32.7 and 38.1 millimeters.”

  10. Dustyroads says

    I think they will mint it. Then sometime after the release we will have a proof Pd announcement. I mean, if you want to sell a lot of bullion coins, that’s a good way to do it.

  11. TemplePriestess says

    Why not come up with a new design? I understand bringing back winged liberty for the gold dime anniversary but using it again just takes away from both coins.

  12. RSF says

    The reverse design was commissioned for an American Institute of Architects’ award. It follows that the eagle is in the process of gathering building materials.

    I’m surprised (but glad) they are proceeding with production, given the results of their marketing survey. It’ll be nice to hold an example of one eventually. I hope the Mint has one on display at the upcoming Central States Show in Chicago.

  13. Dustyroads says


    Thank you so much for mentioning the symbolism of the Eagle. I have been trying to get to the bottom of this one. It makes perfect sense.

  14. MarkInFlorida says

    John Q. Coinage says “This would be very nice. But, palladium price$ have shot up the past year+ making this an over $1,000 mint item @ present, based on the Mint’s profiteering/pricing schedules.”

    BUT, there is supposed to also be a bullion version, so a few dollars over spot.

  15. cagcrisp says

    @MarkInFlorida, What is being discussed IS the bullion coin. The legislation was passed under 2010 PAYGO legislation so the premium will be Considerably higher than “a few dollar over spot”.

    The legislation does allow for the possibility of both Proof and Uncirculated coins but so far all that are being mentioned is the Bullion version…

  16. Erik H says

    Barry, interesting story. Lots of people here seem to like Elemetal’s silver high relief rounds.

  17. Dustyroads says

    In reference to the RSF post above, he says: “The reverse design was commissioned for an American Institute of Architects’ award. It follows that the eagle is in the process of gathering building materials.”

    Of course he’s talking about the Pd Eagle coin and the symbolism of the Eagle pulling at the branch as to separate it.
    Most of us here if not all can appreciate the fine looking Eagle, but what is a little awkward is that the bird is somewhat out of place in it’s nature. After all, it was designed for a specific purpose having to do with an entirely different subject, the American Institute of Architects’.
    My concern now is the confusion that will arise over what the Eagle is representing. But I guess the most important thing to remember here is that it’s a coin not intended for circulation, and conspiracy theories are for the most part innocuous, if not serve to make the coin even more interesting.

  18. Jerry Diekmann says

    This will be a very pretty design. I hope they will issue it in proof, as that would be the way I would like to buy it. But is it just a coincidence that the Pd prices have been going up, the closer this coin gets to being a sure thing? I wouldn’t want to think our government would ever resort to collusion with private industry – Russia, maybe, but not surely not big corporations. Say it ain’ t so!

  19. says

    Pd is currently at $770

    The BU version with a $39.00 over spot charge puts it at a $809 coin.

    A possibly Proof version, assuming a high relief and greater die wear due to the hardness of the metal, so let’s say a $390 premium,
    Puts a would be Proof at $1,160

  20. jp says

    The article states “The obverse is an exact and finely detailed rendering of the classic Winged Liberty dime obverse by Adolph A. Weinman.” But when I look at the actual winged head liberty dime (the ones in sliver from years ago) there are distinct difference compared to the obverse photo in this article; was the original “mercury” dime a variation not true to the Weinman design? For example, the face is different when overlaid, and the outer “wing” feathers on the cap in the photo look like you can dental floss between them whereas the silver coin clearly overlays the outer feathers. Can someone defend that this is an exact and finely detailed rendering of the classic Winged Liberty dime … or is this a bait and switch, referring to the gold version?

  21. says

    Open Question:

    Any prognostication as to the Silver Krug.s exclusively being offered by MCM & GovMint?

    Does it seem reasonable to expect a price drop once the million mintage hit the secondary market?

    I sure would like to buy one BUT my recent contacts with MCM & GovMint yield a feeling that everything will happen to me, yet, in the end, I will not even be kissed.

    Received a ‘cold call’ from Minn. based GovMint guy – yesterday, Thurs. 16 Mar. 17. As with so many of the Texas based outfits, early on the Q. “Do you have a pen to write this down?”I feel they do this to invoke some sort of pavlovian control.

    I do not have a great deal of time in this hobby but the MCM /Gov.Mint Silver Krug. prices seem ever so unreasonable. How the South African government allowed the single firm exclusivity, to me, is mystifying.

    I agree with the others in that it seems like the U.S. Mint is beating a dead dog with repeated use of the winged liberty design.

    So much for my rambling

    Semper Fi

  22. KC&SO says

    Harry, you aware of Pt or Pd utilization in LEO or space exploration applications? To you previous Q, I’m trying assess future demand going forward.

    I wonder if Indochina, China, Rimpac or India have a requirement for catalytic converters, though I suspect not, nor would they impose that requirement.

  23. data dave says

    @cagcrisp – While I would not use averages to describe the distribution of the ATB puck sales (because 5 of the pucks have accounted for 25% of the sales), it looks like the Effigy puck is going to have a hard time catching the third lowest selling puck which is Acadia at 40.4K total sales. Not sure why the bullion version is lagging so bad but if it sells out at 19.5K I will be buying if I can get it for $4 over spot or less. I think the bullion versions actually are nicer to look at and the premiums are lower.

  24. KC&SO says

    Silky –
    starting MARCH 13, 2017 AT 9:34 AM

    A lot of consternation

    Cag, the SA mint never got back to me on that online order form inquiry, oh well.., as previously stated, 1,000,000 ain’t evaporating anytime this year.

  25. Mintman says

    Agree that SA Mint must not be a customer focused organization with respect to their numismatic sales…no response to online inquiries
    Here’s my response…..Keep your Product
    I won’t buy one. Let’s speak with our wallets.

  26. Brad says

    Any idea if the Mint is done with the Effigy Mounds 5 oz. bullion coin at 19,500? The number hasn’t changed in a while. I know a lot of people have bashed it here, but in my opinion it really isn’t THAT bad. I went ahead and bought an APMEX Mint Direct tube of them, albeit a few days before silver took a dive. I could have gotten the tube about $40 bucks cheaper had I waited a few days, but that’s always the way it goes it seems.

    I like the Effigy design second best for 2017, behind the Ozark Riverways which to my eye is downright pleasing. It reminds me a bit of the 2012 Acadia. When Ozark is released, I’ll be buying an APMEX Mint Direct tube of it as well. The other three 2017 designs I have no use for. I may buy a single coin of each to keep the set going, or I may sell off the set of 2010-2016 coins shortly. I haven’t decided yet.

  27. David says

    Why can’t the mint use this design for another 1oz silver bullion coin? Other nations have multiple issues of 1oz bullion coins so why can’t we???

  28. cagcrisp says

    @David, “Why can’t the mint use this design for another 1oz silver bullion coin? Other nations have multiple issues of 1oz bullion coins so why can’t we???”

    The Mint has Some latitude concerning Gold coins. The mint has Less latitude concerning Silver. To get another Silver coin it would HAVE to be Congress that passes legislation. Within latitude the Mint can change some of the design of the ASE, however, the Mint can NOT just arbitrarily create Another Silver coin.

    That is why the Mint has chosen to go the Silver Medal route…

  29. Dean says

    Maybe it’ll grow on me but the finish looks like raw clay and quite unappealing.

    I’m also not a fan of the winged liberty head design but I totally dig the eagle.

  30. data dave says

    OT – What are people’s thoughts on all the privy marks that seem to be coming out? Seems like a cheap way to create another collectible coin and charge more money. I have moved away from collecting based on date/mintmarks and like to collect on design changes. I would rather have 50 different ATB designs, than 50 identical Kennedy busts with 25 years and 2 mintmarks on them.

    I can’t wait until the US Mint comes out with a portable press and starts stamping coins in different cities and giving them different mint marks. Silver Eagles stamped, NY, LA, CHI, etc.

  31. cagcrisp says

    On the Palladium 1 oz Bullion coin. ..

    MarkInFlorida said “few dollars over spot”

    KCSO said “39.00 over spot”

    I’ll throw out Another number: $200 over spot.

    When it’s all said and done, I will be surprised IF you can purchase a 1 oz. Palladium Bullion coin for Less that $200.00 over spot…

  32. Erik H says

    APMEX sells 2017 Platinum bullion for $120 over spot, cagcrisp why do you think the Pd bullion should cost more?

  33. cagcrisp says

    @Erik H, The way the Legislation is worded. Its not like some Mint offerings that lose money year after year. The palladium coins legislation specifies that:

    “(3) Sale of coins.–Each coin issued under this subsection
    shall be sold for an amount the Secretary determines to be
    appropriate, but not less than the sum of–
    “(A) the market value of the bullion at the time of
    sale; and
    “(B) the cost of designing and issuing the coins,
    including labor, materials, dies, use of machinery,
    overhead expenses, marketing, distribution, and

    Currenttly there is no discussion of a proof or uncirculated coin to defer some of the overhead costs. Without the sale of a proof or uncirculated, I just don’t see Mintage to be enough to spread all the costs without a large premium to spot…

  34. Erik H says

    The ATB’same required new equipment yet the price over spot is in line with other bullion products. The more they sell the lower the cost per unit. I’m sure the premium will be low enough to justify more than a one year run (if there are no buyers the program dies especially since it’s taken 6 years to get off the ground).

  35. earthling says

    Why does the Mint need to be chained down by Congress at all? Why not just set them free to produce whatever they want? I’m sure ( fingers crossed) they wouldn’t turn out much worst than they already doo. At least maybe they won’t continue to put out all these Gold Dimes etc.

  36. earthling says

    Oops, Erik, right you are on that one. The Politicos gave them freedom to do things in Gold. Now they just need to expand that to Platinum, Palladium and maybe Silver too, please. Even with only Gold, Platinum and Palladium, they could at least get the colors right.

    This nonsense of making small change in Gold is a bunch of bs.

  37. says

    If the mint charged $200 over spot…sells would be very low….the secondary market would provide more realistic prices….of course mintage and hhl also come into play.

    I think cagcrisp noted that the 225th gold coin has yet to show any hhl’s

    How many of you you plan to buy the HL Gold 225th annv. coin…looks fairly certain mint price will be $1640

  38. says

    cagcrisp says, On the Palladium 1 oz Bullion coin.., I’ll throw out Another number: $200 over spot.

    Haha, yeah right, $200 over spot – Count me out.

    I’ll go $79 over spot on pre-sale, and that’s it.

    I still haven’t bought a silver Krugerrand with no plans to do so.

    Patience is a virture and wait as long as it takes for the price to be right

  39. earthling says

    My addiction to clicking on Coins may just get the best of me on that HR Gold. I might buy one after all. But then again maybe I’ll buy something from CRO – come on CRO put out some good stuff in an Early Bird offering. Or Moonlight Mint, I need to order something…. soon. Please help me out.. I’m illin out here.

    I look for a HHL of 1 on that HR Gold. That would be good Marketing 101.

  40. says

    Jerry, sorry, but I’ve had enough of yours and others political comments. For the record, Obama was the most narcissistic president we have ever had…his mindset was that he knew what was better for you than we did. Look up the definition of a megalomaniac and you have Obama.

    Now let’s state focused on coins

  41. says

    Anything less than a HHL of 50 on that HR would be disastrous for HR mint sales..,

    Though personally I would welcome a HHL of 1 as it would likely depress sales even further.., beyond my low estimates and thus create value for those that do buy the HR and absorb the high premium.

    Numismatic coins that create some value for those that collect them is a good thing and good for the hobby.

    Anyone that comes on this blog and espouses otherwise needs to have their head check, as is often the case.

  42. Mintman says

    The 2017 HR will not sellout
    It won’t even be close
    The USM would have done better to limit to 35,000 pieces to ensure a sellout

  43. says

    @earthing….a few months ago I would of said I would never buy the 2017 225th gold coin…now I’m wavering and might buy one…this series is only going to be released every two years.

    But again, I still look at pre 1933 gold as the best buy for the buck. So many choices to choose from

  44. Dustyroads says

    The 2015 UHR Liberty, oh sorry, HR, had a HHL of 50 with 50,000 available. I see the Mint following suit, unless they’re really pumped with expectation. Frankly, if the Mint has a HHL of 1, I’m going to begin loosing faith that THEY have their heads screwed on straight.

  45. says

    Steve – so agree, & from what Cag has posted that I subsequently research, there’s value to be had in those Pre-33’s. 😃

    The HR Liberty with a mintage of 35,000 and a HHL of 50..,

    now that would create collector value and keep the series ALIVE.

    Ain’t gonna happen, though being pragmatic, 35,000 mintage with a high HHL would set a good tone for it rather than have it linger for TWO YEARS with dismal sales like most offerings to-date.

  46. Mint News Blog says

    @jp — Your observation resulted in my learning how to make a photo-comparison slider, so I thank you! I find the two designs to be nearly identical, with the differences being a lock of hair above the eye on the dime that’s trimmed back on the mock-up, and the length of the main feathers behind the cap, which are a little longer on the mock-up than on the dime. When you get a chance, please take a look and share your thoughts. I’m curious to see what other differences people detect.

  47. Yes, But...You Can't Take It With You says


    Yikes, that slider thing is SO COOL! And I am very impressed with your learning curve. 🙂 I agree that there is little difference except perhaps Liberty’s hair being more defined at the bottom showing under the cap. Almost looks like she has a cornrow, but we certainly don’t want to do down that road again!

    You might want to add a note somewhere that the slider was added later. Thanks for all of your good work.

  48. Dustyroads says


    I like the added definition in the new mock up. Although the detail in each feather may be lacking it’s still a very clean sculpt. Did you notice Liberties Adam’s apple? I didn’t see it on the original.

  49. Einbahnstrasse says

    Yes, cool slider thing!

    Some other changes: Liberty’s prominent chin has been toned down a bit, the waves of hair directly below the wing have a rather different arrangement, and a collar (or necklace?) has been added near the truncation of the bust.

    And contrary to the description in the blog post, the original typeface has not been retained. The B of LIBERTY and the G of GOD are particularly different. It’s a better imitation of the original typeface than we’ve sometimes gotten from the Mint, but it isn’t the original.

  50. Buzz Killington says

    Spot + $200 is Right On for a US Pd bullion coin. I also think the market would bear that in the short term.

    There is still a small market for Pd, but not a lot of options. When Pd fades into fashion, as it sometimes does, it is not easy to find it at any price. The first year of a US coin will move. And then be available for much less in 5 years (relative to spot).

  51. Mint News Blog says

    @Eibahnstrasse, you’re right — the new typeface is the same in feel, but there are distinct differences, like the ones you pointed out. Good eye! I was so pleased with the R in TRUST, I overlooked those other details. I’ll edit the post accordingly.

  52. Mint News Blog says

    @Dustyroads, that area of the throat is definitely more pronounced. I wonder how much allowance the sculptor has to make for the transition from clay model to final coin. Perhaps on Weinman’s original dime plaster the throat was made equally as sharp, with the knowledge that the definition would be reduced in the end product. Maybe someday I can secure an interview with a Mint sculptor and ask about that.

  53. sharks2th says

    With a larger canvas I’d like to see the date on the same plane as the other lettering, rather than have a tilt like some of the original dimes. The date was closer to level on some of the 1916 year and in later years on the dime. It just looks “off” to have the tilt in the date alignment. The original dimes most likely had a tilted date in order to fit it in the space available without taking enough time to get it level. Since the dates were individually stamped into each die, there are variations in the angle the date was stamped into each die.

    As for the eagle, it could be argued the eagle is breaking off an olive branch to symbolize peace. The eagle holds an olive branch on many coins.

  54. Dustyroads says


    RSF says

    March 16, 2017 at 9:38 pm

    “The reverse design was commissioned for an American Institute of Architects’ award. It follows that the eagle is in the process of gathering building materials.”

  55. So Krates says

    @ Xena/Jerry D. – I wish that clever Elvis/corn flakes analogy was mine, but I must confess it was paraphrased from the author and intellectual, Sam Harris. Feel free to stretch your mental muscles by checking out his podcast on You Tube and elsewhere. While religion often comes up, the Waking Up with Sam Harris segments deal with a wide variety of current issues in an intellectually honest, go anywhere the facts lead style.

  56. So Krates says

    @ Steve – While we could debate their policies all day, an honest comparison of character or psychological health would NOT show President Trump to be superior to the previous office holder. That would be like saying, Donald is a better athlete than Barry. It’s just not true…unless you believe those concocted, delusional statements he convinces others to make. Like this one from that wacky long haired gastroenterologist who called the candidate’s blood pressure and lab results “astonishingly excellent” in a signed statement. He goes on to blow more smoke…”If elected, Mr. Trump, I can state unequivocally, will be the healthiest individual ever elected to the presidency.”

    Despite the dozens of indicators of questionable character, one only needs to examine the man’s appearance to glean insight about his psychological makeup. Anyone who looks in a mirror and can’t clearly see how his hair and complexion appear to everyone else is deluded to some degree. If you can’t even objectively “see” what everyone else sees when they look at you, the chance of sharing the same objective reality on larger, more complex matters is very small.

  57. Keep Calm & Stack On says

    Sharks2th –

    “The reverse design was commissioned for an American Institute of Architects’ award. It follows that the eagle is in the process of gathering building materials.”

    Obviously before the advent of Home Depot. 😉

  58. Keep Calm & Stack On says

    It amazing me how much time is wasted here posting ideological rhetoric that very few, if any, actually reads or cares about…

    I wish I had that amount of time in any given day to piss away.., unbelievable.

    Well, in effort to steer back to coins, if I’m actually on the right blog..

    Boy Town Proof Clad – Surprise – it has a moderate relief to it around the rim, I would equate it to the relief on the Silver Liberty Medals, just on a smalerl scale, though it is clearly noticeable and has nice eye appeal.

  59. Keep Calm & Stack On says

    Boys Town Silver Proof –

    I’ll be interested to see the 70 to 69 population ratio on this one. The Obverse is like a mirror, while I don’t buy into the whole grading this for Moderns, I could easily see the Proof commanding a nice premium in 70, especially FS PR70 pending how these things grade out with the big flat mirror like Observe.

    The tree on the Reverse is nicely done with two-tone frosting. Trees are hard to replicate in art, much less on coins, this one was very professionally executed.

  60. Keep Calm & Stack On says

    And a justa FYI – the RCM 3/4 oz Howling Wolf with the moon back drop – Sweet, looks amazing in hand.

    Steve, you might like this one having owned a part wolf and all.

  61. Keep Calm & Stack On says

    One last observation –

    American Liberty 225th Anniversary Gold Coin

    It doesn’t appear to be feeling the LOVE.

    No where does it appear on the mint’s Home Page

    No where does it appear on the mint’s Catalogue Page

    The 225h Anniversary link on the Home Page goes No Where.., well except to the Catalog Page

    No recent marketing except at a couple coin shows to-date.

    For all the pomp and fare back on the 12th of January, you’d at least expect to see a photo of in the Product Schedule page..,

    Nope, still no image on the PS, nor HHL.

    Hey, maybe the international community will come by the droves and buy’em, though does any other non-coin collectors really know about it that are not on Face Book?

    Who knows, maybe they’ll show on the 6th of April expecting to pay a $100 for it, like some of the comments eluded to.

    Love or No Love for the HR come the 6th?

  62. earthling says

    Here in the D , even $100 is too rich for a Coin. Once a boy got shot ( dead) for accidentally kicking another’s shoe, on a city bus. The value of Life is cheap here. People are shiftless lazy street beggars, it’s like a 3rd world country in many respects. We have the largest population of Islamic People in the USA here. Oddly they seem to be the best behaved and decent people in the region. They truly seem to appreciate the opportunities that freedom presents for them , and they are willing to work to earn a better place in life. Too bad some of our maligned “American ” minorities can’t get a hint about the value of earning money AND respect.

    I’m willing to bet the HR Coin would be very popular in Detroit if it were a Clad Half Dollar. But a 1 Ounce Gold Coin? Unless it can be obtained basically free (by whatever means)- forget it.

    Old White Guys hoping for a low mintage, will be the main buyers, if there is any flipping potential at all. But is there?

    Oh, and expect the usual big rush to get the rare limited First Strike slabs with the commercial 70 grade.

    My personal forecast is 22,000 first hour sales . If there is a HHL of 1, I’ll bump that down, to about 13,000.

  63. So Krates says

    At $200 over spot the big palladium dime has left the bullion category by definition and seems to violate the legislation.

    Historically palladium trades in a lower premium range than the other PMs. E.g. our friendly neighborhood bullion behemoth sells Pd Maples at $35/4.5% over spot while the premium on Pt Maples is $90/9%. Buy prices are always under spot. Even the collectible CCCP Ballerinas with a changing design only bring about $100 over. A $200 premium will be quite glaring and may be the reason that the commissioned study concluded that a bullion palladium program is not feasible.

  64. So Krates says

    While I support the continued input and missions of the CFA and CCAC, is it really necessary they review and comment on a design already required through legislation? I’m sure the Mint and Treasury can figure out where to place the motto, denomination, etc.

  65. So Krates says

    KCSO says, “It amazing me (sic) how much time is wasted here posting…I wish I had that amount of time in any given day to piss away.., unbelievable.”

    He then goes on to blather for another hour

    ya just can’t make this stuff up!


  66. says

    @ $1,640, a non-eBay store flipper must flip at $2,010 to net a $100.

    This assumes that $4.95 budget shipping is selected and the flipper does not incur shipping nor insurance costs at the time of sale.

    $100 net on a $1,640 investment is way risky IMO.

    I don’t see any flip potential unless you’re MCM with their hoard of label offerings.

    Be better off hoping for a coin with a raised edge letter error, and there may errors with the edges.

  67. says

    Haha, I’m famous! I’m getting quoted all the time, 😘

    Back to flip potential, I guess most flippers would use the ’15 HR as a guideline and bound expectations on its performance.

    Though I don’t recall the ’15 HR Liberty being flipped.

    It sold 34,000 on day one though a very small percentage found their way to the bay. Too much risk I presume

  68. Dustyroads says

    The 225 will be around too long for any secondary market expansion any time soon. The only thing in the way of added value that this coin has going for it is long term. Now we all know long term can be difficult to predict, but with nothing other than a bust of a woman wearing several large stars on her head, one could equate it to a First Spouse gold coin, if only slightly. I personally am content to remain a student in this release, though I lean towards the indicators. One bright spot is the advertising that this coin had at the unveiling, the Mint scored big on it. On a personal level, it’s a shame it took a divisive nature we all seem to carry to bring about it’s extended promotion. In fact, I saw a local news release right here in Santa Poco which boasted the same rhetorical comments seen everywhere else.

  69. says

    so krates..Obama says his plan will save every family $2500…wrong, just the opposite…he said if you like your current doctor you can keep him…wrong again. If you don’t think Obama care is a disaster, you are a left wing fool. If left as is, it will soon collapse as premiums and rise more each year as well as your out of pocket payments.
    I don’t know yet what the republicans plan will end up as….but it will take the government out of making choices for us. Buying insurance across State lines, more competitive rates….anything would me better than obamacare…and if you don’t see that, you are a fool.

  70. earthling says

    Jeppson autographs on NGC slabs

    Posted on March 18, 2017 by Numismatic News Staff




    Head of the Mint and a veteran, Rhett Jeppson will autograph NGC grading labels.

    Rhett Jeppson autograph certification labels have been added to the product line-up of Numismatic Guaranty Corporation.

    The former first Principal Deputy Director of the United States Mint will put his name on labels for the 2017 High-Relief $100 gold piece that is due to be released April 6.

    Game over. Look for a fast sell-out now. One big sell-out makes another sell-out a certainty now.

  71. RSF says

    Mr talking points, if you’d bother to watch anything other than Fox, you’d know that when compared to CBO projections, you’ve saved twice that amount with ObamaCare. Same goes for the Affordable Care Act, for those of you that like one, but not the other.

  72. Xena says

    KSCO – how were the St George’s Beasts? And I agree, the RCM 3/4 oz Howling Wolf with the moon back drop is the best of the bunch so far.

    Dusty – did you get your Dragons yet?

    So Krates – thanks for the Sam Harris info. I bookmarked his website, but I’ve been busy stretching my mental muscles with the first 3000 years of Christian history (Diarmaid MacCulloch’s book). Will have more time when this semester is over.

  73. So Krates says

    Before the sheep were told to hate it, it was called RomneyCare. This was the blueprint for the ACA and was first implemented in Massachusetts after being hatched by conservative think tanks like the Heritage Foundation.

    Sorry, Steve, but this topic is too large and unrelated to coins for this blog. Even Copper Face realized this three weeks ago when he first looked in to it and said, “Now, I have to tell you, it’s an unbelievably complex subject…Nobody knew that health care could be so complicated.”

  74. Xena says

    My Red Dragon’s came the other day but wasn’t able to get a good look until today. Nicely done design and no issues. I thought the Dragon would be my favorite, but I compared all 3 in good light this afternoon, and I think the details on the Dragon (scales/wings) are a little too weak. Both the Lion’s mane and the Griffin’s neck/wing feathers have much more detail.

    If I remember correctly, there was a discussion a while ago about milk spots on these. Checked all of mine (3 Lions, 2 Griffins, 2 Dragons) – and one Lion has spots on the obverse. The rest are clean (for now).

  75. Dustyroads says


    Yes I did, not long after you. I did notice that the silver Red Dragons are more proof looking than the prior issues, and with what looks like slightly more relief, or maybe a stronger strike. In any case, they all have been good coins that I have received. I like this series and expect others to keep embracing it as well. I’m very happy with them.

  76. sharks2th says

    Xena – There a small parking lot at the Frederick Douglass park and on street parking in the adjacent neighborhoods. It is a long hike from the nearest metro station. I haven’t decided whether to go yet or not.

  77. HarryB says

    KC&SO: in my observation at my day job, gold, platinum, and silver have applications in launch vehicle propulsion and, in the old days, silver in batteries was a major cost driver. I never had to consult the spot market in negotiations for palladium, so I assume no or very low use. My experience is based on Government developed components, I have little insight into the commercial launch vehicle component, but I doubt there is much gold plating in their hardware. I do note that the new administration is very interested in establishing domestic sources of “rare earth” elements for defense purposes, the last administration was buying all such needs from China as I understand, the last domestic source went bankrupt in 2013 as I recall. Harry.

  78. earthling says

    Speaking of China……….

    Seems like less than week ago, things between USA ,N Korea, Japan,and China were at the meltdown pt. Now it’s like a lid was put on it.

    Suppression of nuke aggression? Well, I suppose we can’t handle the truth anyway. Alright back to our regular programming.


  79. sharks2th says

    Dusty and KCSO – While I don’t disagree with the concept of nest building by the eagle on the AIA medal since it does appear to be breaking off the branch, in the medal description notes this is a laurel branch. Laurel is historically used to recognize the victor in battle. The current uses of laurel are for recognition and accolades. The awarding of the medal is an accolade generally awarded to only one person a year since its inception. I was just pointing out the use of the “olive branch” or in this case laurel could represent peace on the upcoming Palladium coin.

    Weinman made notes as he worked on his designs and was fond of using writings to inspire his designs. Anyone interested may find some of the studies of Weinman interesting in the numerous articles on the numismatic.org website. The following quotes may be found here: http://numismatics.org/digitallibrary/ark:/53695/nnan167271#d1e11765

    “… the sculptor cites Bartlett’s Quotations as the source of inspiration for a design, and in a memo to himself…”

    “On the reverse of the ALA [sic, should be AIA] medal, a magnificent eagle with partially extended wings appears on a rocky perch, ripping off a laurel branch in its beak. In comparison with the rather tame bird on the reverse of the Roosevelt Special Inaugural Medal, this eagle has a great sense of power and life, enhanced by the way that the motif fills the entire field, extending right to the edge of the frame. Weinman achieves a remarkable amount of detail in the talons and the differentiation of neck and wing feathers, the result of careful studies from nature.”

    There are a few other areas of this article which would be appropriate to quote, but I’ll let those interested read the information in its entirety get the full understanding of the Weinman paper. There are a few more Weinman articles on the same site.

    Weinman’s son donated his father’s sketchbooks and drawings to the Archives of American Art. Looking over these documents would be a fun few days if one had the time do so. Some the correspondence between Weinman and St. Gaudens is very revealing in their relationship and the respect they had for each other.

    There are also similarities between the AIA medal reverse and the Walking Liberty half reverse.

  80. sharks2th says

    Is anyone else having problems with the “comment” box deleting words when you type the next word? I’ve only noticed this problem in the comment box here on MNB.

  81. Dustyroads says

    sharks2th, You said:

    “in this case laurel could represent peace on the upcoming Palladium coin”

    I like that thought. In fact, I would like to see a forest of Laurel. Maybe that can keep us in good standing with our trade partners, because frankly, I feel like it’s almost 1937 sometimes.

  82. says

    Xena, well worth the half a day venture, if you ever make it over there tour the sights where they reside and have been, and you can’t go wrong,
    You’ll have another shot at another lion, there’s one more in the bunch.

    PCE is running a weekend special on the 1/4 dragon, $335 with cc, or $26 over.

    I’ll have to take a pass on the rally, won’t be in the ‘hood.

    Sharks2th, I liked that explanation and agreed, I just thought someone find the humor in the HD reference 😉

  83. says

    Thanks Harry, that helps. WRT the rare elements, that’s what I’m seeing on the D&A side with considerably demand, seems as if technology application has moved beyond the known PM’s, into the exotics/extreme rare, which I suspect will bleed over into commercial applications in due time.
    I’m not sure where that leaves me in assessing future industrial demand for Pt or Pd, as I highly doubt those emerging markets will have the same EPA-like requirements.
    I’ll have to do some more homework, though I’m still in on that Pd coin like a duck on a June bug.., for the design, this stuff all just expensive art anyway, ..it just doesn’t burn up in a fire.

  84. sharks2th says

    @KCSO – I’m in on the Pd as well. I liked the castings Weinman did without wings on liberty’s cap, which he apparently used as the basis for the head on the Walking Liberty half. I’d still like to see both of the Indian eagle ($2.5, $5, $10) designs used at some point well. (The $2.5 and $5 Indian gold designs are the same for those who don’t collect them.) The quarter/half eagle Indian design is one of my favorites. I like the Indian eagle ($10) design but I like the quarter/half eagle design the best. St. Gaudens did the Indian eagle ($10) design.

  85. KCSO says

    AW’s Walking Liberty –

    “…an ever-hopeful Liberty striding confidently toward the sunrise, draped in the strength of the Stars and Stripes and carrying branches of laurel and oak in her arms to symbolize both civil and military glory, was intended to inspire patriotism.”

    – inside cover of my new AUDCS.

    Mercanti’s eagle on the Reverse is carrying an olive branch.

    So Weinman’s AIA Eagle was the one that retrieved the laurel branch for Lady Liberty 🙂

    All tremendously well executed.

  86. KCSO says

    Sharks2th – I couldn’t agree more. A modern version of the incuse Indian in $2.5 & $5 would be da bomb! Instant sell out and look amazing in a modern collection – let’s keep our fingers crossed!

    Perhaps with the HR Liberty being an every 2 year release, the mint will find it in themselves to alternate with a modern rendition of a classic.., oh I so do hope so!

    Then wrap it up with a gold 2021 Peace Dollar.., to the same dimensions as the original!

  87. jp says

    @Mint News Blog, thank-you for inserting the slider, very useful for the comparison between the two. To respond, I agree with the statement that the obverse closely follows the prior design. For me, it’s the lack of overlapping the outer feathers that appear primarily to make this instead another artist’s rendering of the original. Besides the other specific differences such as neck, hair and lettering style and position mentioned, the eye is different, especially the location of the lower eye lid, making bigger the eye of the gold and now this one. Also, the combination of the eye with the cheek contour gives the face a different look to me.

  88. Tinto says

    Though I won’t be buying this coin I just had to check out the slider by MNB. Haven’t read the previous posts so maybe it has already been covered.

    It does look different to me also. Aside from what jp commented, the head seems to be flattened also, giving it a more oblong look. Maybe it is because of the lack of visible folds at the top of the cap which is also closer to the “R” .. as compared to the dime.

    Hope the final coin will have more details in the feathers than the mock up.

  89. felson says

    I think the slider is very cool… but it appears we are comparing an artist rendering to a coin… and as such I don’t think it is a fair comparison.

  90. earthling says

    I recently got my first ever Palladium from Dan Carr’s Moonlight Mint. I bought a Pd coin and a Silver piece also. Both metals look pretty much alike .

    Well here’s hoping this Pd Bullion Coin get rolling soon. Hopefully when the Mint wants to redo the 1921 Peace Dollar they’ll strike it in Palladium or Platinum.

  91. rpk says

    Very interesting to be able to compare the two versions. I would have to say I like the 1916 much better. On the 1916, Mercury looks alert and forward-looking. On the 2017, he appears to be sleepy and bored.

  92. earthling says

    Anything new about the Apollo 11 issues? Too bad they can’t do a Big 5 oz Gold Coin. A Big Silver will be nice enough but a monster Gold would be so much better.

    Little chance the Mint will ever put out anything that would makes a real end Collector happy. Their business is aimed at flipping to flippers. Trying to flip a 5 oz Gold Coin probably won’t work. So the Mint wouldn’t even consider such a thing.

  93. Jerry Diekmann says

    Steve -regarding your irrational hatred of Obama – keep your “alternate facts” to yourself. And Socrates is coming from knowledge and you are coming from being a “useful fool” that the Republicans love to have vote for them, and then they screw them, without even a kiss. And if you think that having a choice among State plans for medical care is going to happen, you are really mistaken. Ryancare or Trumpcare will work the same way as the credit card companies. The big insurance companies will move their headquarters (it’s really not that big a deal if you follow the stock market) to parasite states like richly red South Dakota, where there are no usury limits – here in California it is 10% – and the rest of the country now pays 18% to 36% interest on credit cards. That will be how your “affordable” medical care will work. If you can afford 18% to 36% interest you can use a credit card. If you can afford true medical care, you will need to be rich – like Ryan and the insurance companies. South Dakota is an example of a state which, in order to bolster its own economy – no one really wants to live there – effectively live off the rest of the country by passing laws favorable to the credit card industry. The same thing will happen with medical care. For your sake, I hope you don’t come down with a life threatening disease or suffer some injury – becoming disabled is only an accident away from all of us. You can choose whether or not you want to own a credit card, but you can’t just choose to be healthy all your life and then die peaceably in your sleep on your 90tyh birthday. Life doesn’t work that way. This stuff is really a lot more important than coins, so the blogmaster can delete it if she finds it too far off topic or that I have stated something inaccurate or false.

  94. Ben There says

    I see a lot of complaints about the price and it hasn’t even been set yet. I’ll say this about the Mint, their prices are a LOT more reasonable than the prices charged by foreign mints like Canada and the UK. The markups that these mints have on their precious metal offerings are ridiculous. This is a really nice looking coin. I’m not sure how long the series will last because palladium is not really an investment metal. To keep interest they will have to change the design.

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