Bowers on collecting: American medals to the fore — the 1805 Eccleston medal

By Q. David Bowers

Welcome to the latest installment in my series on the subject. I highlight some of those featured in the best-selling Whitman Publishing book, 100 Greatest American Medals and Tokens.

This week I showcase one of the most preposterous medals in the book, voted number 24 on the list:

1805 Washington Medal by Eccleston, “The Land Was Ours”

1805 Washington Medal by Eccleston. Hover to zoom. Images courtesy of Whitman Publishing.

Among numismatically popular early medals associated with the life of George Washington, the Eccleston medal of 1805, from dies cut by Thomas Webb, is certainly the largest (76 millimeters), and it is among the most interesting.

At first glance, this seems to be a satirical medal. Washington is encased in a heavy suit of armor, “a singular conceit” noted W.S. Baker in his 1875 book on Washingtoniana. At the center of the reverse is an Indian (Native American) with the surrounding inscription, THE LAND WAS OURS. It seems that Eccleston, a highly eccentric Englishman, meant the medal as a tribute.

According to his own account, Eccleston spent time in America in the late 18th century and was Washington’s guest at Mount Vernon. No confirmation of this has been found.

Eccleston wrote to Thomas Jefferson in May 1807, and he enclosed a specimen of the Eccleston medal which is in the collection of the Thomas Jefferson Foundation and is on display at Monticello:

Sir,

I beg your acceptance of a Medallion of your Great Predecessor in the high station which you at present so worthily fill, which I have lately had struck off to his memory, and request the favours of your forwarding a couple to the honourable Bushrod Washington [Washington’s nephew, a Supreme Court justice at the time], for himself, and Judge Marshall.

Notwithstanding the Date on the Medallion, these are some of the first I have issued. I believe it is the largest medal, and in the highest relief that has been struck off in this country for some time.

If it would not be occupying too much of your time, I should be glad just to be informed of the safe arrival of this small parcel and I am,

Sir, Your assured friend, Daniel Belteshazzar Plantagenet Eccleston

On December 21, 1816, in England, the weekly Lancaster Gazette published a notice of Eccleston’s death and included information concerning his life and accomplishments.

Daniel Eccleston was born in Fylde, in Lancashire, England, the account noted. After the American Revolution, he spent extensive time in North America. While accounts are somewhat conflicting, his stay in the Caribbean on the islands of Antigua and Barbados is said to have occupied “several years.”


The memorial noted that he had many eccentricities, but was good-hearted. He had engaged in diverse projects and business ventures in Lancaster, including brokering insurance and selling liquor. Among his inventions was a cast iron loom for weaving sailcloth, a device that was widely used and brought him much profit. He made a coach with oversized wheels for use in fording streams and traveling on beaches at high tide. He was a member of the Society of Friends (Quakers). We also learn that he was a numismatist:

Mr. Eccleston was also a collector of coins and medals. It is to this extraordinary individual we are indebted for the large and handsome medal of General George Washington. He sent, as presents, copies of this medal to the government authorities in America, and one to the Emperor of Russia.

It is not often that someone can read his own obituary. In America, Samuel L. Clemens (Mark Twain) did it, and in England at an earlier time, Eccleston seems to have done so—or perhaps the entire affair was a stunt. In the next issue of the Gazette, he announced he was alive and well, signing himself as Daniel Belteshazzar Fitz William Caractacus Cadwallador Llewellyn Ap-Tudor Plantagenet Eccleston.

Today, the Eccleston medal stands as an elegant specimen of art, one of the most intricate in the Washington series. It also has a colorful history.

In our book we gave this information, which should be about right today in 2018, although the market for medals continues to grow in strength:

Estimated Market Values for Copper Strikings

Proof-60 to 62: $800 to $1,600

Proof-50 to 58: $400 to $800.

Commentary: These are always well struck and are usually found in higher grades. Prices reflect typical rough planchets; pieces with smooth planchets are worth more. Several hundred exist today.

As is true for most medals, your challenge will be in finding one, not paying for it!

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Comments

  1. cagcrisp says

    Guesstimate for First Day of Issue for the $10 American Liberty Gold…

    NcCoinCollector Under 50k
    A&L Futures 26,715
    cagcrisp 23,750
    datadave 77k
    Zephin 33k
    Tom ~135,000 Sell Out Day #1
    KCSO 37k; Launch Week 109k
    Tinto 60k
    Teach 19,650
    John Q. Coinage 18,900
    20th Century Variety Collector 33,333

  2. KCSO says

    Nice article.., I’d like to have an example of that GW medal though afraid to look what that might cost!

    datadave – thanks for the link on the previous thread, good to know.

    Hey Guys – we’re like the .001% of the population that collects and buys into this stuff – That inherently make us all on the same Team.

    When you find a good find.., like a buy to pick up a puck with a credit card on the Bay during a special for $99 – post it here.., it’s the right thing to do.

    There’s only 10,000 to 20,000 out of 340,000,000 of us that appreciate the beautiful and value of precious metals colleting..,

    So help a Bro out.., post your good finds here.

    In mine eight years on this blog, I’ve felt good about posting along good finds.

  3. cagcrisp says

    Guesstimate for First Day of Issue for the $10 American Liberty Gold…

    NcCoinCollector Under 50k
    A&L Futures 26,715
    cagcrisp 23,750
    datadave 77k
    Zephin 33k
    Tom ~135,000 Sell Out Day #1
    KCSO 37k; Launch Week 109k
    Tinto 60k
    Teach 19,650
    John Q. Coinage 18,900
    20th Century Variety Collector 33,333
    Anthony 67,890
    Steve 22,000

  4. Buzz Killington says

    To keep this medals-related, and to confess my last of prognosticating talent, I thought there would be WAY more cancellations for the Coin & Medal sets than we saw in this week’s sales numbers.

  5. ips_stuff says

    @cagcrisp
    my guess is 24500
    The 2016 Mercury sold 100k or close to it, Don’t know what opening day sales was.

    I will buy 1

    What I want to know is which of the 1st day sales estimators, are buyers of the coin?

  6. cagcrisp says

    Guesstimate for First Day of Issue for the $10 American Liberty Gold…

    NcCoinCollector Under 50k
    A&L Futures 26,715
    cagcrisp 23,750
    datadave 77k
    Zephin 33k
    Tom ~135,000 Sell Out Day #1
    KCSO 37k; Launch Week 109k
    Tinto 60k
    Teach 19,650
    John Q. Coinage 18,900
    20th Century Variety Collector 33,333
    Anthony 67,890
    Steve 22,000
    ips_stuff 24,500

  7. cagcrisp says

    @ips_stuff, “What I want to know is which of the 1st day sales estimators, are buyers of the coin?”

    I’ll wait until the HHL is Lifted…

  8. Tom says

    @ ips_stuff
    I am a buyer. Hoping to order 5. They will make nice gifts.
    The 2016 Gold Mercury sold out within 45 minutes with help with a 10 order limit. I think we will see another sell out tomorrow.

  9. Numismatrix says

    Great Story !

    This ties in well with the upcoming medal (presidential)
    offerings from the US Mint – really looking forward to
    these . . .

  10. Sherril says

    Does anyone have any idea what the 2018 coin and stamp set will be that is to come out this fall?

  11. Malco says

    Is the 2018 American Liberty one-tenth ounce gold proof in high relief like the 2017 one ounce proof gold coin?

  12. says

    Doesn’t the 1807 (“1805”) Washington medal portray him far better than does the ongoing since 1932 quarter dollar series? Isn’t it unfortunate the state quarters show that same very inferior rendition of Washington, and isn’t it especially deplorable when enlarged on the five ounce pieces?

  13. Erik H says

    For those that own the 1 oz Gold Liberty do you feel the need to buy the 1/10 oz???

    I can’t decide on buying this to keep or some SLV to flip.

  14. So Krates says

    OT – A few threads ago Cleveland Rocks stated that MCM no longer accepts BTC. He implied they took it on the way up but not on the way down. I don’t think they ever took crypto for payment. Where did you get this info?

  15. cagcrisp says

    Guesstimate for First Day of Issue for the $10 American Liberty Gold…

    NcCoinCollector Under 50k
    A&L Futures 26,715
    cagcrisp 23,750
    datadave 77k
    Zephin 33k
    Tom ~135,000 Sell Out Day #1
    KCSO 37k; Launch Week 109k
    Tinto 60k
    Teach 19,650
    John Q. Coinage 18,900
    20th Century Variety Collector 33,333
    Anthony 67,890
    Steve 22,000
    ips_stuff 24,500
    Dustyroads 37,000
    So Krates 48,500
    Peter 26,700
    Montana John 32,485

  16. cagcrisp says

    The following are some items that I got out of the 10-Q filed February 7th 2018 from Collectors Universe, Inc. (CLCT).

    Bullet points on Collectors Universe, Inc. (CLCT) Q2 filing…

    • Income from continuing operations for 3 months ending December 31st 2016 = $2,924k
    Income from continuing operations for 3 months ending December 31st 2017 = $70k

    • Net Income per diluted share for continuing operations for 3 months ending 12/31/16 =$.34
    Net Income per diluted share for continuing operations for 3 months ending 12/31/17 = $.01

    • Coins “units processed” December 31st 2016 = 919,100
    Coins “units processed” December 31st 2017 = 469,600

    • “Grading authentication and related service revenues decreased by $3.8 million, or 21%, to $14.1 million in the three months ended December 31, 2017, as compared to $17.9 million in the three months ended December 31, 2016. “

    • “One of our coin authentication and grading customers accounted for, in the aggregate approximately 2% and 11%, respectively, of our total net revenues in the three and six months ended December 31, 2017 as compared to 18% and 11%, respectively, of net revenues in the corresponding periods of the prior year.

    • “Our top five customers accounted, in the aggregate, for approximately 11% and 20% of our total revenues in the three and six months ended December 31, 2017, respectively, as compared to 30% and 22% in the same respective periods of the prior year.”

    • “On February 4, 2018, the Board of Directors approved a third quarter dividend of $0.175 per share of common stock, which will be paid on February 23, 2018 to stockholders of record on February 13, 2018. This represented a reduction from the quarterly dividend of $0.35 per share that we have previously paid to our stockholders since February 2015.”

    • “We expect that internally generated cash flows, current cash and cash equivalent balances and borrowings available under the credit line and term loan will be sufficient to fund our continuing operations at least through December 31, 2018.”

    • “The decreases in coin authentication and grading fees of $4,455,000 and $1,026,000 in the three and six months ended December 31, 2017, respectively comprised (i) lower world coin fees of $1,976,000 or 43.9% in the second quarter and higher world coin fees of $1,419,000, or 22.4%, in the six months, reflecting the timing of submissions by a Chinese customer who serves the banking channel in China and the seasonality of those submissions, (ii) lower vintage coin fees of $1,062,000 or 29.4% in the quarter and $1,010,000 or 14.7% in the six months, reflecting generally lower submissions in the second quarter, (iii) lower U.S. modern fees of $972,000, or 36.0%, in the second quarter and $135,000 or 2.8% in the six months, reflecting a decrease in demand by dealers and customers for recent issuances of coins by the U.S. Mint that reduced submissions in this year’s second quarter, (iv) lower coin trade show revenues of $445,000 or 26.0% in the second quarter and $1,300,000 or 32.4% in the six months, representing one less show in both the first and second quarters and less revenues earned per show”

    • “As previously disclosed, our second fiscal quarter is typically our seasonally slowest quarter of the year in the United States due to the winter holidays that occur in that quarter and the decline in our U.S. coin revenues in this year’s second quarter reflected generally lower submissions in that business. The lower world revenues and in particular China, reflected our previously discussed expectation that our China revenues in this year’s second quarter would be lower than this year’s first quarter, due to the seasonal nature of that business that we have experienced over the last six quarters.”

    • “Our third quarter is typically our seasonally strongest quarter of the year in the United States, although coin submissions has started more slowly than the third quarter of fiscal 2017. Due to the seasonality of the China business and the significant impact that business had on our first quarter revenues, we don’t expect total consolidated revenues in the third quarter of fiscal 2018 to exceed the level of revenues generated in the first quarter of fiscal 2018.”

    • “Although we have no current plans to do so, we also may seek to sell additional shares of our stock and incur borrowings to finance the growth of our collectibles businesses. However, there is no assurance that we would be able to raise additional capital or obtain additional borrowings on terms acceptable to us, if at all.”

  17. cagcrisp says

    The ^ “• Coins “units processed” December 31st 2016 = 919,100
    Coins “units processed” December 31st 2017 = 469,600”

    Should both be for “Three month period ending December 31st”

    Coins “units processed” for 3 month period ending December 31st 2016 = 919,100
    Coins “units processed” for 3 month period ending December 31st 2017 = 469,600

  18. Blair J. Tobler says

    @Sherril – the product schedule shows San Francisco. If that’s accurate the set should include a proof half dollar. Haven’t seen any other details yet.

  19. Zephin says

    @ ips_stuff says “What I want to know is which of the 1st day sales estimators, are buyers of the coin?”

    I’m in for two.

  20. cagcrisp says

    cagcrisp says
    FEBRUARY 8, 2018 AT 2:55 AM

    Guesstimate for First Day of Issue for the $10 American Liberty Gold…

    NcCoinCollector Under 50k
    A&L Futures 26,715
    cagcrisp 23,750
    datadave 77k
    Zephin 33k
    Tom ~135,000 Sell Out Day #1
    KCSO 37k; Launch Week 109k
    Tinto 60k
    Teach 19,650
    John Q. Coinage 18,900
    20th Century Variety Collector 33,333
    Anthony 67,890
    Steve 22,000
    ips_stuff 24,500
    Dustyroads 37,000
    So Krates 48,500
    Peter 26,700
    Montana John 32,485
    mark 65,000

  21. cagcrisp says

    I posted in the Wee Hours of the morning Some of My Bullet Points about the quarter ending for Collectors Universe, Inc. (CLCT)…

    ALL you guys that buy Graded Coins REALLY should take heed of what I posted.

    Current Stock price of CLCT is $16.09 Down 39.6%

    The Stock did hit a 52 week Low this morning of $15.51…

  22. says

    Erik H says
    FEBRUARY 7, 2018 AT 11:03 PM

    “For those that own the 1 oz Gold Liberty do you feel the need to buy the 1/10 oz???

    I can’t decide on buying this to keep or some SLV to flip.”

    Yup. Unfortunately, it’s the ‘completeness’ side of being a collector driving that compelling need

    1

    If this thing does not sell out today, they’ll probably be A LOT of cancellations or returns due to the lack of the flip opportunity

  23. Buzz Killington says

    @cag —

    Thanks very much for digging out that info from the PCGS disclosures.

    Is NGC also a public company, where we can see their disclosures?

    There is a HUGE lesson in those numbers: the coin market is getting SOFT. I wonder if some melting is in the future?

  24. cagcrisp says

    @Buzz Killington, “Is NGC also a public company, where we can see their disclosures?”

    No Sir…

  25. Buzz Killington says

    @cag —

    NGC’s parent also has its hands in other collectible-certifying ventures, but it doesn’t surprise me. There is a big cost in going public.

    In any event, I think what you’ve posted from PCGS gives us an unmistakable picture that the demand-side of the coin business has softened, A LOT. I knew there was some softening underway, but those numbers don’t lie. It is a lot worse than I thought.

  26. cagcrisp says

    From My point of view, there are Only Two items that the Mint NEEDS to go good this year

    1. Today’s Launch of the $10 American Liberty Gold
    2. The Launch of the Palladium Proof coin in the Fall

  27. datadave says

    @cagcrisp – It makes sense that low Mint sales would mean low grading sales. Thanks for sharing the data. I’m trying to reallocate my modern coin money into more older coins and newer bullion. The pink gold thingy sounded good a year ago, but not so much now.

  28. cagcrisp says

    @Buzz Killington, Something (Like the US Mint) has to give. No way around it. Consolidation, Takeover, or Gradeflation on steroids…

    Something has to give…

  29. cagcrisp says

    @datadave, “The pink gold thingy sounded good a year ago, but not so much now.”

    The pink Gold has no interest for me.

    In 2016 When the Winged Head Liberty Dime Gold came out I bought “multiple” orders of 10 @ $205.00

    TODAY…I’m on the sidelines…

    …AND…I Think the American Liberty Gold design is one the better designed coins the Modern Mint has Minted…

  30. cagcrisp says

    @datadave, “I’m trying to reallocate my modern coin money into more older coins and newer bullion.”

    I Think the older coins are the way to go.

    For Christmas, I gave $20 Liberty Gold pieces to my children’s families.

    I gave out Christmas gifts on a Friday night.

    On Saturday night, the entire family had family photos taken and then 14 of us went out for dinner. All grandchildren sat together and I sat at the end of the table. During the meal a 4 year old grandson came up to me and said “Those coins you gave us last night are valuable. They don’t look like money, but they’re valuable”

    That’s all he said and he went back and sat down…

  31. says

    Question….Is this 1/10 American Liberty supposed to be high relief? I don’t see anything on the Mint’s website under specs indicating it is….whereas the one oz coin clearly states it is minted in high relief. Also, a high relief coin will typically have a smaller diameter than a non-high relief coin. For example, the one oz gold eagle and buffalo have the same 32.7mm diameter, while the one oz American Liberty is about 2mm less. However, the specs for the 1/10 oz American Liberty has the same diameter as a 1/10 oz gold eagle.

    What is confusing is that someone on ebay has the coin in both NGC and PCGS holders and both labels say “High Relief”…I assume he got those pics the each companies website.

    Anyway, I am just curious and appreciate your comments. Thanks

  32. says

    Thanks Louis, I didn’t think it was. I don’t know why those NGC & PCGS labels on ebay says it is….you would think they would know better

  33. Buzz Killington says

    @cag —

    I think what has to “give” are these dealers who are holding onto all of this inventory slabbed in 2016 for which the demand has drastically dissipated.

    The Mint is not in charge of its own destiny — Congress is. Hence, the Mint can rightly avoid accountability for a lot of its poor sales or extra expenses. (E.g., It was Congress that mandated edge inscriptions on the 5 oz. Silver coins, which required buying new machines for that purpose — I expect this has been a poor investment.)

    As for older coins, I like them too, but the PCGS numbers showed softness in that market too. The declines were not as steep, but they were there.

  34. earthling says

    Hey , put me in at 88,800 1st day sales. Sellout as soon as HHL lifted. Probably Saturday HHL lifted.

  35. cagcrisp says

    Guesstimate for First Day of Issue for the $10 American Liberty Gold…

    NcCoinCollector Under 50k
    A&L Futures 26,715
    cagcrisp 23,750
    datadave 77k
    Zephin 33k
    Tom ~135,000 Sell Out Day #1
    KCSO 37k; Launch Week 109k
    Tinto 60k
    Teach 19,650
    John Q. Coinage 18,900
    20th Century Variety Collector 33,333
    Anthony 67,890
    Steve 22,000
    ips_stuff 24,500
    Dustyroads 37,000
    So Krates 48,500
    Peter 26,700
    Montana John 32,485
    mark 65,000
    earthling 88,800; SO once HHL lifted

  36. Louis says

    The coin is overpriced and will not be a money make, but for those who could not afford the 1 oz version, it is a nice alternative. I will get one but maybe not for a while.

  37. earthling says

    Hey, the First Day/ New Product addiction grabbed me so I gave in to it. Put 5 Coins in my Cart and looked at prices. Prices of the 1 oz Liberty, price of 1 oz Buffalo, 1/10 oz AGE.

    Looked at the little Liberty Ethnic again. Went to look at checkout again and lo and behold … …. …. something was GONE !

    My desire to buy this thing was totally GONE………….

    Still stand by my predictions. Slabbers are a driven bunch after all.

  38. Teach says

    This blog is typically littered with sales order numbers when there is a popular release. Is this an indication that this release is not that popular?

  39. earthling says

    The US Mint is adjusting its game. Instead of selling things that just get flipped for a slight markup by the slabbers, the Mint is selling out the gate at the typical slabbed markup. That is the brainy thing to do.

    Unfortunately OGP buyers don’t want to pay ” slabbed” prices for OGP stuff. OK , Mint, your move.

    Errors? OK, go for it, it might work.

  40. cagcrisp says

    Thanks guys for the numbers…

    56145xx earliest
    5615xxx 6 minutes later

    Thats…500…TOTAL

    NOT good…

  41. Louis says

    @earthing. Good point. I was thinking the same thing. If I wait, I can get a 70 for the same price in a couple months or a raw for less than issue price.

    Too many good bullion deals now to tie up $ on this.

  42. Sturgeon says

    With the PW, JK, CYC, W and the 1/110 oz. .9999 fine gold on this tiny coin —–It looks like a NASCAR racer —PASS

  43. earthling says

    Here’s a chance for the Memphis Crew to score one for the Team. If in their usual fog of confusion while packing orders, they slip a few 1 oz Coins in the Orders instead of 1/10 oz Coins…………….. winnah !

    Make this into an S.O.P. , the good times will roll baby roll………..

    💃

  44. A&L Futures says

    Interesting developments in PGMs

    — SPOT Palladium is: $972.30

    — SPOT Platinum is: $978.60

  45. Achmed says

    The order-number 5615xxx was at 12:02, my order number 5614xxx was at 12:01. one minute more than 300 orders.

  46. Achmed says

    Sturgeon says

    FEBRUARY 8, 2018 AT 12:42 PM

    With the PW, JK, CYC, W and the 1/110 oz. .9999 fine gold on this tiny coin —–It looks like a NASCAR racer —PASS
    Hi, the coin is a little bigger.

  47. says

    A&L Futures says
    FEBRUARY 8, 2018 AT 12:47 PM

    Interesting developments in PGMs

    — SPOT Palladium is: $972.30

    — SPOT Platinum is: $978.60

    Might see another $50 price decrease in that APE by next week

  48. cagcrisp says

    Launch Day of the 1 oz. Gold American Liberty was 04/06/17

    Sales were 14,285 @ $1,640.00 = $23,427,400

    That tells you Something about the current market…

  49. says

    There were about 10x the comments on that day/week of launch over today.

    Comments on this blog, in terms of #’s and degree of enthusiasm speaks volumes.

    Based on that alone, I’d like revise my Guesstimate –

    FDOI – 15,000

  50. cagcrisp says

    @Teach, “Is it legal for KCSO to change his number after sales have started?”

    LOL

    It’s legal for everyone to changes their numbers

    I don’t think Anyone will be Revising Upwards…

  51. says

    Thanks Cag for the PCGS stats,

    That’s horrendous YoY drop

    About as bad as Blue Apron stock price,

    I hate to see good people loose their jobs when they fold.., though with the destroyed value and I and others incurred with that gold and silver spotting over the past few years, I’ll be glad to see PCGS gone.

    Not a very promising outlook after 2018

  52. Tinto says

    Maybe most of the purchases of the WWI medal and coin combo were bought by pure medal collectors who had no other choice since the Mint wanted to goose up the sales of the coin (it would look baaad if they couldn’t get some $$ for the organizations esp for this occasion…) …. maybe there are others who didn’t buy but are waiting for the medals to come up on eBay … I’m not a medal collector but I will probably buy one of the medals on eBay ..

  53. John Q. Coinage says

    CAG that PCGS info is just a slap in the face & may be ahead of what the market will see–> I HATE to see those squaking us ‘addicts’ will be left holding the bag when things really go p0p…. The USM has alienated it’s ‘base’ done nothing to get them back & further made themselves no friends by jacking up price$! I had a low # for 1/1oth 1st day sales & may not even make it- hard to justifypaying $2,150 spot for this, I passed on the big un, so here I say, whatever to the USM, even as to the Pd Eagle I feel the mint f’d that as well paid way to much & the USM gave their dit’b a big wet kiss & we got a colonoscopy if we wanted a Pd Eagle. So far I have bought NOTHING @ USM even though we have a new birth & would get a Birth set or Contrat$ (none around @ USM sites…..hmmm) The PCGS & Likely NGC numbers are likely to snowball IF the USM does not act wiser towards its ca$h cows…US….. IMHO….. Sorry to say as to all the new stuff “I just don’t care” [Apologies to TL Jones -Lt. Gerrard…)

  54. NCM Collector says

    KCSO says

    A graded MODERN coins IS a Gimmick

    I say, so is original mint packaging. Give me a box of certified coins any day.

  55. Erik H says

    As it pertains to coin grading, how many times does a coin need to be graded. Yes many are cracked then resubmitted in hopes for a higher grade but once it’s in a holder generally that’s it. That’s why the graders have to come up with all the gimmicks for modern coins, if modern coin sales go down then so does the amount of graded coins annually. There’s really no reason to grade moderns to begin with IMO.

  56. gatortreke says

    Normally I might be interested in something like this but I passed, instead I allocated the money to an old Liberty Head double eagle. I’m no expert but the deals seem to be in the old gold right now. There are some nice coins available for low premiums at this time.

  57. earthling says

    Removed from Mint website? I’d say yes.

    Now to remove all the dead junk from everyone’s storage areas and move em to the smelters. I got a Martha and maybe a few others that need to go. It’s good as any Gold but it still needs to go.

    👏

  58. KCSO says

    Stock indices down 4% for the day…, BITCOIN Cash up 40% now….,

    Quick run to Bitcoin cash and Buy, Buy, Buy!

    Odd times we live in now.., life in Mayberry with Barney Fife was probably a really good living..,

  59. Dustyroads says

    Bitcoin Cash pump and dump

    I finally got to use my two $100 gift certificates.

    1/10 oz. Liberty order # 56194XX @5:00 PM

  60. KCSO says

    cagcrisp says
    FEBRUARY 8, 2018 AT 1:32 PM

    @KCSO, “FDOI – 15,000”

    “Playing Price Is Right Rules…You could be Out…“

    I really like The Price is Right with Bob Barker (former Naval Aviator) and his Blonde Beauties back in the 80’s…, though I LOVED Let’s Make A Deal!

    Let’s Make a Deal was the Best! …& I’ll take what’s behind curtain #3!

    Given the lack of order #’s, enthusiasm, what just happen in the market today, and to Lou’s point – the premium is too high – decrement my FDOI Guesstimate by HALF!

    I bought 1 today,
    In 2016 I would have bought 10
    In 2014 I would have bought 20, across 4 accounts,

    Lou has written some great articles on World Coins recently, with Au backing down, I think I’m going to keep some powder dry to pick up some high quality, attractive, good value PM & RCM low mintage, low $ Fractional golds,

  61. KCSO says

    Erik H says
    FEBRUARY 8, 2018 AT 3:22 PM

    “As it pertains to coin grading, how many times does a coin need to be graded. Yes many are cracked then resubmitted in hopes for a higher grade but once it’s in a holder generally that’s it. That’s why the graders have to come up with all the gimmicks for modern coins, if modern coin sales go down then so does the amount of graded coins annually. There’s really no reason to grade moderns to begin with IMO.“

    – You just nailed it! That is so true!

    Back in 2016 I was offloading a lot of the $5 BHoF golds & $1 Silver BHoFS that had the PCGS specks and off-toning, in addition to some others in OGP/and NGC Slabbed..,

    I off loaded more than dozens to dealers on eBay or in person by hand who were going to reslab with an autograph label, I know as I spoke to a few of their intentions, I was taken back, it’s was a total churn event. One dealer that I met with in person in St. Louis bought all 69’s, all OGP, and capsules to fill an order for what must have been for a baseball team of 20+. Though most wanted 69’s to reslab for with special labels and an autograph – it’s a total churn “what’s hot” slab game.

    Now, so clueless clown will come along on this blog and call BS on the aforementioned.., before you do, go back and read all the post on this blog from March 2014 thru 2016 – it’s all out there, so go do you’re homework.

    I made a big mistake in 2014 – I share this so other’s may learn, that’s where I’m at, helping other’s not to repeat my bonehead mistakes, so unless you can flip and dump within two weeks.., buy what makes your collection whole, puts a smile on your face, and put the rest in good quality stocks..,

    Happy Collecting!

    I hope that Reverse Proof set this fall is in silver, otherwise this is going to be very affordable, i.e. cheap, year.

  62. John Q. Coinage says

    KCSO reverand!! I passed on the 1/1oth so far, & would have bought the 5 in a blink b4 the events @ the USM the past few years. They lost ME & I think I am just one of many fed up & worried about the coin market in general & the mint milking us like chicken (u can’t milk them, but the USM thinks they can….) THIS chicken has gone home to roost, I did not like this as a 1oz Lib HR & as a 11oth see no need, w/the premium way up yonder. Spouse;s long gone I should have dumped the Liberty & SeatLib spouses they had a premium for a bit. I said 18,900 for 1st day, I may get UNDER sold! Release the Pres dollars, put old unsold proofs into circulation & maybe some circ 90% silver (the USM must have a bunch just lying around……?) try to create some buzz w/the public….just an idea

  63. Tom says

    I’m not trying to change my guesstimate but rather clarifying the day. I failed to mention it being a sellout by the end of the day on Venus. Not Earth.
    Yup, that should do it.

  64. Anthony says

    It could be that more attention has been on watching the Dow this week. Dow turned south again today, down 1,033 points.
    Hmmm, this week the Dow is presenting the same kind of trading volatility as Bitcoin!
    A cashless society is emerging at both ends of the candle! 🙂

  65. Anthony says

    That little 1/10 oz. American liberty gold will do well over the long haul (for the Mint).
    It’s price point will make it attractive as a jewelry item, gold pendant, etc.
    Not everyone cares for their coins to be imprisoned in an OGP box or slabbed holder, only to be locked away in a safe deposit box!
    I’d be surprised if they DON’T sell at least 100K of them before they are off the Mint’s website.

  66. Louis says

    Thanks, KSCO.

    This is a great time to buy bullion not so much because of spot but because of the vagaries of the
    market. Proof gold eagles are cheapest premium ever because a large amount was liquidated
    recently, but smart buyers are snatching them up before premiums rise by hundreds. Same with
    silver, you can buy 90% at spot, which is actually cheaper than what it cost when silver was $15 per oz.
    because their was a shortage then and premiums were higher. The point is you gotta study the
    market just like Cramer would do with stocks. Booyah!! But don’t hoard for heavens sake!

  67. says

    I sent Bullion Exchanges an ebay message and told them these are not HR coins. They said they were told my NGC that they were, but will recheck with them.
    Since then I see MCM and Pinehurst are selling these as HR…and they all want around $350 for a proof 70.
    I would rather buy another golf Mercury Dime which you can get a SP70 for $265.
    I have the one oz American Liberty…got a good price of 1555 in a PCGS FDOI PR69 slab…I couldn’t find one in ogp for that price, so I’m gonna pass on these 1/10 oz American Liberty coins at current prices. I don’t think will sell all that well.

  68. Erik H says

    I decided to pass on this as well as the up coming 5 oz ATB. I like a lot of this year’s ATB designs but will probably pass on all of them this year because they aren’t necessarily must haves. I will still pick up the silver proof set and enjoy the smaller silver ATBs.

  69. Daveinswfl says

    CLCT Report is the seminal publication on the state of the hobby. Coins are going the way of baseball cards, beanie babies, tulips, etc. The only thing of value nowadays are digital 1s and 0s. That will not end well (see 2000 internet bankruptcy stocks.)

    Someday the world will wake up again and return to gold as a store of value. Not in my lifetime, but I am buying for the grandkids now. Bullion, baby, bullion!

    Yet I will force myself to buy a RP set IF it is done in silver. Gotta throw away some fiat on coins I love to view – even if they are old school.

  70. Daveinswfl says

    So, who is the big winner on the FDOI 1/10th oz gold?
    Doesn’t sound like it’s the U. S. Mint !

  71. Erik H says

    Does anybody own or have an opinion on PSLV? I normal trade SLV.

    I know that Sprott stores their PMs at the Royal Canadian Mint and is fully Allocated.

  72. Sith says

    You just summed up the difference. You do have to worry about the NAV for PSLV. That is something you don’t need to worry about with SLV

  73. cagcrisp says

    @Daveinswfl “So, who is the big winner on the FDOI 1/10th oz gold?”

    The Lowest of the Low:

    John Q. Coinage

  74. Sith says

    Just in case NAV = Net Asset Value. Because PSLV is a closed fund. IE because the fund is fully allocated, its shares trade at premium, and very really a discount to the underlying spot price. In a nutshell, when you buy shares from SLV they supposedly go out on the open market to buy the silver. When you buy from PSLV you have to entice a owner of the silver (held in the vault)to sell to you. He may not be willing to sell. or he maybe desperate to sell. In PSLV, the difference between spot price , and the amount asking is the NAV. You need to be aware of it when buying and selling that CEF. But that is the price you must pay for buying allocated silver

  75. earthling says


    Daveinswfl says
    FEBRUARY 9, 2018 AT 9:45 AM

    So, who is the big winner on the FDOI 1/10th oz gold?
    Doesn’t sound like it’s the U. S. Mint !

    I’m getting the impression former Mint Victims have stood up, raised there fist to the great oppressor , and are on their way to beating the disease ( of buy buy buy … every craptocoin that gets shoveled their way ).

    Sort of like the scenario on the upcoming Pink flopcoin.

  76. says

    WOW WOW WOW!!!!!!

    First-day sales of the $10 American Liberty reached 9,842 coins, U.S. Mint spokesman Michael White told CoinNews in an email Friday, Feb. 9.

  77. cagcrisp says

    As predicted, the Mint has Lifted the Counter Productive HHL after 24 hours

    When will the Mint Learn that a HHL of 5 for a Mintage of 135,000 is Insane?

    As I’ve stated before, the Mint Only has 1 day to get things Right and Yesterday they didn’t get things Right…

  78. Tinto says

    @cagcrisp

    The Mint can’t learn .. the managers probably still get paid in full whether they are productive or not .. so there is no incentive to move beyond their comfort zone …

  79. says

    New Guesstimate –

    If ask, how long will the 1/10th oz Liberty be one sale for?

    Ha! It’ll be pulled – December 2020

  80. bigguy says

    why is this 1/10 oz new proof coin a $10 coin,but the American eagle 1/10 oz are only $5 ??????

  81. John Q. Coinage says

    I went low but missed my limbo #! W0W the low #$ might wake up those Mint marketeer genui, or not, they will likely double down on some other junk. They eliminate the Native $1 Coin & Currency which was a nice decent priced item & people liked them as gifts (v. Al Franken…..( Anyway, IMHO this is a continuation of the apparent demise of ‘collecting’ & mint addicts, we have got the monkey off our backs! I do get mint stuff, ! got the ’17 HR silver medal for $34 maybe too much but to be honest, it’s a nice looking medal. Big Guy likely as it is 24k/.999 fine v. the AGE .90%……also inflation! The sales #$ are shocking in that it seems the mint avoidance virus is spreading among the bedrock, the people who (used to really…) buy mint products.

  82. Tinto says

    Yeah, IMO the Mint made so many efforts to mess with the regular buyer .. like having no HH limit on that Congrats set last year, issuing the first Palladium issue in bullion and in limited quantity no less, not issuing a 2009 proof ASE with the wimpy excuse of needing to kiss up to the bullion buyers, ..etc. all to benefit the big boy buyers and the AP’s .. at the expense of regular collector folks . Sooner or later people will get tired of getting messed around so publicly they are just gonna give up and this is happening now I think .. (for me I really gave up buying high priced Mint products after 2014 when I completed the Preamble series.. )

  83. Jerry Diekmann says

    I guess I am one of the many on this blog that are cutting way back on dealing with the Mint. Lower mintages, higher premiums, gimmick coins and medals, inept marketing, ad infinitum. This 1/10 oz. gold coin is just the latest gimmick, and the marketing and design behind the WW I commemorative silver dollar repulsed me – I won’t be buying this coin or any of its medals, and I’ll be a no-show for the “pink gold” BCA coin later this year. And we should all know that the Mint couldn’t care less about the average coin collector any more.

  84. John Q. Coinage says

    Jerry & Tinot, hate to say so but ya’ll right about this..the MINT only cares about $ but does not see the forest for the trees, they see a few fine trees for cutting but fial to notice the fire growing from those who no longer like the forest (the mint…) maybe a bad analogy, but kind of where we are. We are heading to US Stamp status where cat value v. Liquidation ca$h value don’t aligh (this may play out for better date cons, etc., as people DATE & MM colecting die off, or leave collecting & are apparently never replaced. kids those <35 are no into coins, heck my kids would rather use a credit card for a parking meter than the stack of quarters ('s' mint ATBs destined to be spent, who cares about the bag$ if they did care THEY B0UGHT THEM ALREADY!!) I gave him…..eliminate the penny that might spur some collecting, release the Pre$1 in the vaults, release UNSOLD Proofs in circulation…nope we here @ the USM prepare to rearrange the deck chairs & announce that in 2019 we will have 3 more versions of the 20178 HR…why not it is a 'beloved' design, who would want say a restrike Bust $1 or 1794 Eagle Huh!!

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