Changes Ahead for Presidential and Native American Dollars?


A report recently issued by the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System suggests that changes might be ahead for Presidential Dollars and Native American Dollars. If suggested legislative actions are taken, the production levels for each of the series would likely be drastically reduced.

The report (summarized on Coin Update or available here in pdf) describes the growing stockpile of $1 coins held by Federal Reserve Banks, which has now reached more than 1.25 billion and will require the construction of a new storage facility.

The coin hoard continues to grow due to specific requirements of the authorizing legislation for each series.

Federal Reserve Banks are required to make each design of the Presidential Dollar series available to financial institutions in unmixed quantities during an introductory period. At the end of each ordering period, a residual amount of coins remains, adding to the hoard. Financial institutions who actually ordered the coins end up redepositing roughly 40% of them, again adding to the hoard.

The separate Native American Dollar series carries a legislative requirement that the coins represent at least 20% of dollar coin production for each year. Since Federal Reserve Banks are not required to order this series, the coins have been primarily distributed through the US Mint’s Direct Ship Program. Unfortunately, an estimated 60% of these coins are eventually redeposited at Reserve Banks, once again adding to the hoard.

According to the report, the United States Mint has suggested legislative action to remove the 20% requirement from the Native American Dollars series. In the recent past, we have seen that when the US Mint suggests legislative action related to coins, it has taken place. Last year, the Mint requested a change to the law related to Silver Eagle production to allow collector versions to be struck even if full demand for bullion coins was not being met. They also requested changes to the specifications for the America the Beautiful Silver Bullion Coins. Both of these changes were provided under the Coin Modernization, Oversight, and Continuity Act of 2010.

The US Mint has not struck any 2011 Native American Dollars in several months, perhaps in anticipation of legislative action to remove the 20% requirement. According to the most recent production figures, for the year to date Native American Dollars account for about 12% of total dollar coin production.

With regards to Presidential Dollars, the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System has suggested removal of the requirement for a mandatory introductory period for each design. Rather than being forced to order each new design, the Reserve Banks could instead use existing inventories of dollar coins to fulfill demand from financial institutions.

If both of these legislative changes are made, it would likely have a dramatic impact on the number of Presidential and Native American Dollars produced each year. With so many coins already stockpiled, production might fall to the minimal levels needed to fulfill demand from coin collectors. This may become similar to the 2002-2008 Sacagawea Dollars, which had mintages of just a few million per year. The coins were not issued to the channels of circulation at all, but rather sold at a premium in US Mint numismatic bags and rolls.

The line up of circulating coinage denominations in the United States would grow even stranger. Of the six denominations, two would cost more than their face value to produce (cent and nickel) and two would only be produced in minimal quantities for collectors (half dollars and dollars).

Update: According to NPR, a California Congresswoman is planning to introduce a bill to immediately halt production of dollar coins. I have not seen the exact language of the bill, but this would seem to immediately end the Presidential and Native American Dollars series, and by extension the First Spouse Gold Coin series.

I am not sure how much support the bill would get. The complete elimination of the programs seems to go too far, especially when only small adjustments would solve the main issue of the growing $1 coin hoard.

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Comments

  1. Anonymous says

    I just hope that the Presidential Dollar and First Spouse gold series are allowed to run their full course. I want to see the coins through to the end!

  2. Anonymous says

    They could cut production way down and there would still be millions more that there are collectors.

    I wonder what'll eventually happen to the billion that are stockpiled. If they stop making $1 bills, they would probably be needed. Why are they still making paper bills? Because the vending machine lobby pays our congresscritters to keep it?

    I'm still afraid of what these will look like in a few years as the manganese corrodes. Maybe I'll trade mine in to and buy silver eagles…

  3. Anonymous says

    Circulating coins these days are rarely of interest except to collectors or people who use vending machines. The nickel, dime, and quarter will most likely remain. The cent, I feel, has no future and is utterly worthless. The half dollars are essentially marketed only to collectors and will probably be eliminated. Michael has done a fabulous job documenting the issues with the one dollar coin programs.

    Here is what I think, roughly, is going to happen to our circulating coinage:

    Cent – most likely eliminated entirely or possibly converted to steel within the next few years

    Nickel – converted to steel

    dime – no change

    quarter – no change

    half dollar – discontinued in 2014 (50 year anniversary would be a good point to end the series, maybe add in a silver commemorative coin here as a farewell gift)

    dollar coin – discontinued again at the end of the presidential dollar series UNLESS they eliminate the one dollar bill (which is more expensive to produce than the coin and so is a possibility).

  4. Anonymous says

    The dollar bill should be eliminated and the two dollar bill should replace it. The use of the two dollar bill would limit the large number of dollar coins that would need to be carried around. the half dollar should be eliminated as it is rarely seen in commerce. There are certainly enough dollar coins to replace the paper bills in circulation.

  5. Anonymous says

    You darned collectors who order bags and rolls of the $1 coins from your banks and then flit through the entire freakin' bag for the best, shiniest, one or two and then take the rest of the bag back to the bank asking for bills in exchange are the source of this problem!

    What do you think the banks are going to do? Hold onto them? NOBODY ELSE WANTS TO USE THE DARNED THINGS!!! The banks just send 'em back to the Fed, who has no choice but to stockpile them under current laws.

    I say eliminate the $1 coin as a circulating coin. Nobody wants to carry around heavy pieces of metal around in their pocket or handbag anymore! Make the $1 coin a numismatic-only product, wrapped in a lens and an expensive packet. Then all you collectors who really want one, can order one, and the rest of us taxpayers who have to foot the bill for the Fed stockpiling them (yes, it's public money…the Fed returns its profit to the Treasury and if the Fed's profit drops, so does the public benefit) won't have to anymore!!!

  6. Mint News Blog says

    Update to main post: According to NPR, a California Congresswoman is planning to introduce a bill to immediately halt production of dollar coins. I have not seen the exact language of the bill, but this would seem to immediately end the Presidential and Native American Dollars series, and by extension the First Spouse Gold Coin series.

  7. Anonymous says

    Wow, if the First Spouse Gold Coins are discontinued, I would think the values of the existing ones would go up considerably.

  8. Anonymous says

    Here is the letter she sent:

    Repeal the Wasteful Presidential Coin Act

    Deadline COB Friday
    Dear Colleague,
    More than a billion of the $1 coins shown above are currently sitting in the vaults of the Federal
    Reserve Bank. These coins remain unused, and cost taxpayers millions of dollars to create – and
    will continue to be minted until 2016 unless we do something about it.
    In 2005, we enacted the Presidential $1 Coin Act. This bill began a series of commemorative
    coins with the face of a President on them, starting from George Washington, to a new President
    every 3-4 months. This was an attempt to interest the American public in adopting the $1 coin.
    However, it was as unsuccessful as the Sacagawea or Susan B Anthony coins. So far, the Mint
    has produced coins through President Ulysses S. Grant.
    Some 2.4 billion coins have been minted since the start of the program in 2007. According to a
    recent investigation, the government has already wasted more than $300 million making all these
    coins that no one wants.
    Around 1.2 billion of the coins sitting in the vault of the Federal Reserve Bank and over 60% of
    those coins that finally enter circulation return to the Fed for storage. The Federal Reserve told
    Congress last year that the pile of idle coins could double by the time the program ends in 2016.

    My bill directs the Secretary of the Treasury to stop minting the $1 coins, immediately
    halting production of these unnecessary coins. Taxpayer dollars that will be saved from
    this legislation will go towards the deficit.
    If you have any questions or would like to cosponsor, contact Josh Connolly at 5-3531 or
    josh.connolly@mail.house.gov
    The Honorable Jackie Speier

  9. vabeachbumz says

    Very interesting update, Michael.

    While I think it would be extremely harsh to transition from everything to absolutely nothing, I can't say that I would not be surprised.

    The FED is losing / wasting money on the hoarded coins and is having to spend additional money for expansion and/or new facilities to store the excess. Similarly, interest in the related Mint products continues to decline, either as the prices sky-rocket or as the Mint changes the products mid-stream with their new Market Branding (my biggest gripe).

    I have worked very hard and have made some tough choices while keeping up with one-each of the FS PR and UNC coins, and the series doesn't reach the assumed mid-point until the Garfield coins in December. Five more years that also will include another 5-Spouse year?? Gonna be tough.

    Given current markets, I plan to buy the Grant coins prior to the price increase next Wednesday, and intend to continue as long as the program does. If this legislation does evolve and pass, I would be very interested to see how it impacts the sales of the last 2-3 issues in the FS Program.

  10. Anonymous says

    I think everyone needs to remember that the name of the game right now, under the current economic climate, is to save the Federal Government money….

  11. Anonymous says

    If the name of the game was to save money, the best option would be to get rid of dollar bills and leave Americans with no option…

  12. CaptainOverkill says

    Anon @ 1:57,

    Sorry, collectors are not responsible for the state of the $1 dollar program, this is a ridiculous assertion. The issue is businesses are refusing to issue them as change. Most people never see these coins at all. If businesses get them, I assume they are immediately dumped in the nearest bank instead of recirculated. The general public does not care about these coins. In fact, collectors are the ONLY ones trying to acquire these coins at all. Instead of mindlessly blaming them you should be thanking them that the program is not even a worse disaster. If the government wants to succeed, all it needs to do is end production of $1 bills.

    As to Michael's update, I am not surprised about the backlash. The NPR story caught a lot of attention and has spread into many of the small media outlets. While it would be nice if they simply reduced production down to a half-dollar equivalent, I can't say I'd cry too much if the program just ended.

    Also, it's going to make prices for the First Spouses EXPLODE if there's a premature end. I would expect prices for the dollar coins that have only been released in the specialty Mint sets to also rise substantially, and possibly the value of US Grant rolls could increase as well. An early end to the program could have interesting consequences. I'm looking forward to seeing how it all turns out.

  13. Anonymous says

    Why would ending the program make prices for the existing Spouse coins go up? Most are already no longer for sale….

    By not ending the program is there a chance that they go back and re-release the older coins?

    I'm not being fallacious, I really have no idea why ending the program early would have any affect on the prices of coins that are no longer available anyways.

  14. Anonymous says

    gold @ $1600 on Mon.? $2000-$2500-$3000 by the end of the year? when interest rates start to rise we may start seeing $100+ a day increases in gold and silver might likely be over $100oz sometime next year.

  15. Anonymous says

    I support ending production of all the golden dollars. Very few people use them. Such a waste. I also support ending the spouses. Less than 5000 people actually care about them. More government waste. Overpriced bullion.

  16. Anonymous says

    Make financial transactions rounded to nearest tenth, ($9.9). Get ride of the penny, nickle, and quarter. Then get rid of paper $1 and $5. Make a Washington $1 coin, a Jefferson $2 coin, and a Lincoln $5 coin. Put Adams on the fifty cent piece. That's all.

  17. Anonymous says

    Uh, oh. Its complaint time. Lets get rid of the dolla bill and the penny. Why in the frickin' world do we have a penny? Is there still a penny gumball machine out there? The dolla bill is nasty, costly, and wears out fast. I'm not sure why some say the dolla coins are gonna weigh down our pockets and purses. How many y'all plan to carry, fifty or more? We still would have five dolla bills. No need for carrying more than a few in your pocket.

    Also I bet the mint would sell more coin sets if they would leave out the pot metal dollas and just leave them as a separate set which I believe is not exactly setting the world on fire in sales. The mint needs more silver coins that average collectors could get like a silver half oz. buffalo. Sure we can collect older precious metal coins but the prices on those are really high for ones in good condition. Who wants to collect just pennys, Jefferson nickels, and clad quarters and dimes. Perhaps a few do and to each his own.

  18. Anonymous says

    No one addressed my point yet on the connection between this proposal and the FS program. I worked in the Congress for 20 years, and as I understand it, you would need to amend the part of the law that specifically deals the FS coins to end that program. I don't think this would happen automatically by ending the dollar coins. Also, no one knows how ending the spouse program may affect prices of existing coins. It's really all speculation at this point.

  19. Anonymous says

    There is only one way to solve this problem and that is to get rid of the paper dollar. Everything I have read says that they are more expensive to produce and the coins last longer in circulation than bills. After one dollar bills get grimy, as we all know, the Fed has to spend money to destroy them. You wouldn't have to do that with the coins. I found a penny from 1917 as recently as a year ago. The dollar coins will hang in there a while. And the switch would save hundreds of millions of dollars(so I hear).

    And as for not wanting to lug around all these coins, I just got back from a trip to Europe. They have 2 euro and 1 euro coins, and 50 cent coins. The smallest bill is the 5 euro bill. To be perfectly honest I didn't even notice the 15 euros in coins in my pocket. You can spend them pretty quickly as well. The 50 cent coin was really handy because it did cut down on change. If we used the half dollar here, instead of getting three quarters, you'd get a half and a quarter. Anyway, saying you don't feel like carrying them around isn't good enough. Lawmakers aren't thinking thoroughly. They hear that there are too many dollar coins and their first reaction is lower the amount or get rid of them. They don't think of the more cost effective route of getting rid of the paper dollar. I do spend Presidential dollars all the time. It isn't that bad. I'm not saying Europe does things better, I'm just saying the experience gave me a little insight as to what it would be like here.

    Another good reason is the dollar can't really buy that much anymore. It has effectively become change. You save all of your one dollar bills til you have enough to buy something. You do the same with all your other coins. You save them up until you can cash them in and buy something. The switch to the dollar coins is great idea and should get more support. But the only way it will happen is if the government just does it and everyone just has to deal with it. People would get used to it very easily.

  20. CaptainOverkill says

    Anon @ 3:58

    My understanding is that sudden and abrupt terminations of coin programs can set off scrambles for the coins after the program has ended. Why this happens I don't understand, it is not logical to me.

    I don't know as there will be much of a scramble for the presidential dollars (excepting the few Garfields and Hayes that are floating around out there in proof and uncirculated sets), but I could see one developing for the first spouses. The Julia Grant values in particular should go through the roof as the last sales report only showed 2,245 proof and 1,460 uncirculated had been sold.

    I agree with all the above comments about ending the dollar bill. Dollar coins are only slightly bigger than quarters and really do not take up much space in peoples' pockets – you don't hear constant complaints about how quarters are "too big." The government just needs to man up and end the one dollar bill. I like the $1 coins a bit better than the old bill. Something being "venerable" is not a good reason to keep it – if you want to venerate it then make a collectible coin version or something.

  21. VG says

    I couldn't care less if they end the Presidential Dollar coins. They are probably the worst coins the Mint ever produced. How typical to mint billions of coins and shove them into storage. I'm amazed that the government can tell us what kind of toilets and light bulbs go in our houses, but won't dictate the monetary situation. They haven't learned that Americans will not use dollar coins as long as there are $1 bills being produced. I don't see how ended the First Spouse series makes sense. Whatever gold coins the Mint doesn't sell can be melted and re-used. There aren't stockpiles of FS coins in warehouses. It also isn't fair to those of us who have purchased all releases and want to complete the set.

  22. CaptainOverkill says

    Anon @ 5:13,

    I've heard rumors floating around on various coin blogs and coin news outlets that the company that supplies the paper for bills to the Bureau of Engraving and Printing has political connections of some sort (maybe to the Kennedy family, my memory is poor). I don't know how much credence to give them, but that could be a reason why you don't see the dollar bill ended.

    As for First Spouse, while it would be unfortunate if they did not end the series, you can take heart a little bit that an abrupt termination will likely greatly increase the value of the coins you do have.

    I wonder if ending the AtB-Ps suddenly at Mount Hood would produce a similar result…

  23. Anonymous says

    If the First Spouse program is discontinued, the existing First Spouse coins would go up in value because you no longer have the possibility of future issues having mintages that are lower. So we would now have a better idea of where all the coins sit in the mintage hierarchy. I think the key and semi-keys would see a nice rise in values, and the rising tide should lift all of the others up a bit as well.

  24. Anonymous says

    actually I just checked COINFLATION and the 40% silver halves are worth almost $6 now. Thank You again Bernanke.

  25. Anonymous says

    I haven't bought any of the FS coins so far but if they might be discontinued and possibly have an increase in value and maybe a little more popularity with collectors because of this I might get them some more thought.

  26. Daniel says

    It would be nice to add some silver to the dollars but then they would be hoarded. Many people don't realize these coins contain 75% copper and copper is around $4.00 a pound.

    Of course, we can't melt them, but they do have a silver value. I think making them larger and cladding them in zinc.

    Also, allow a few mint errors to be released, and some "unofficial" design changes on a couple thousand dies. It would spark people to get them, but might not help circulation.

    A dollar coin is near impossible to use as coinage, since a paper dollar is thin, can be folded and weighs very little.

  27. Anonymous says

    Settle down a little now speculators. we're talking about a letter to introduce legislation here. your looking at several months if not more than a year for anything to change at all(if there is support)
    I know, I like to think of "what if" too but don't hold your breath on this deal.

  28. Anonymous says

    I would think that if they dicontinue those mint direct std. dollars that they would at least continue the special 2 roll sets that collectors enjoy. As far as first spouse, I like them and I hope they'll stay, could/should be some backlash if not. And what about the Bronze Medals, and Bronze/Prez Sets, they can't just stop those? That would suck too.

  29. Anonymous says

    Kind of amazing that they go to so much time and expense to design, engrave and produce the spouse coins and only a few thousand people want them. Since some people buy both finishes and many buy duplicates, the actual number of people wanting these is miniscule.

  30. vabeachbumz says

    To 3:30 / 4:54 PM. If this does happen, the number and magnitude of the cancellations will depend upon how the new legislation is crafted.

    The 2005 $1 Presidential Coin Act is the governing law. The Native American coins and the FS coins are sub-sections contained within the law. The FS section establishes that the Mint will issue FS coins concurrent with every Presidential $1 Coin, and defines the requirements for the obverse, reverse, and options for Presidents w/out a spouse. Unless addressed specifically, the FS coins would be cancelled by default since no $1 coins will be issued.

    Another sub-section within that same, 2005 legislation also established the American Buffalo Gold Coin Program. That would be a tragic loss of one of the Mint's classically designed issues.

    For once, let's hope our legislators think before they enact.

  31. Anonymous says

    In many European and South American countries there is no "ONE" (insert currency name here)note. They use a coin. Five and up gets paper. Think about it, how many $1 bills do you really carry at one time? ATMs only spit out the 20's, guys…

  32. Anonymous says

    "A little off topic here,those people we send to congress or senate, donot have anything better to do, i mean look at the country, we are broke, ready to default, and those people cannot agree on anything, which is important to the country. . ."

    Politics is all about what gets done and how its done whether its coins or ethanol or something else. It may or may not have anything to do with importance or benefit to the world or country. Somebody in a mining state with a big zinc mine wants more presidential dollar coins. Someone in a farm state wants corn ethanol. They make a deal. Each one votes for the others pet project and corn and mining people are happy.

    Now in my way of thinking neither of these items are worth a crap or beneficial. Corn ethanol drives up the price of corn, a food and zinc goes in to production of potmetal coins. So now we burn up our food and have crappy coins. We have allowed the gov't to get their hands into almost every aspect of life so many of us can get our hands into the gov't goody bag. Generally repubicans want to give money to bankers, businesse, airlines, and some farmers. Democraps want to give money to cities, welfare programs, unions, and also farm subsidies. There is some crossover depending on who needs votes and what dominates the state the politician is from.

    If you like big gov't and politicians sticking their fingers in every little meaningless coin project. Well you have it now so please no complaints. If you like smaller gov't then it is a long way off of it is even possible and keep complaining to your politicians.

  33. Anonymous says

    copper cent values are almost $0.03 again – I've been considering hoarding them lately but haven't really done so except for saving them from my change because of the time and trouble involved. But as prices go higher it gets more tempting. A coin worth nearly 3 x fv (and going higher) that is still quite common in circulation is worth saving and I think more people are going to start realizing this soon.

    I've been hearing about people stealing a/c units and other such things lately just for the value of the copper wiring and these types of stories are likely going to continue as the economy worsens and pm values increase.

    I've been wondering lately why unemployed people don't sort through copper cents and sell them to make money. I think there are a lot of buyers on Craigslist and elsewhere that would give at least 2 x fv for them (3 cents + each for wheat cents). So if someone put a little time and effort into it before long they could possibly be selling 100 rolls( $50 fv) a day for at least $100 (2 x fv) to local buyers in their area – a $50 profit – tax free. It would be an easy and steady source of income and better than standing out in the hot sun or rain all day at intersections with signs asking others for money – but then again maybe panhandling can be more profitable than it seems.

    Maybe when copper cents are worth 5 cents each more people might begin to appreciate their value.

  34. CaptainOverkill says

    Anon @10:32,

    Trust me, there are people who appreciate them. I know a couple of survivalist friends who are literally hoarding them in barrels, along with nickels. Congress had to ban melting them not all that long ago. Watch out when the average person figures out that they are worth something!

  35. Anonymous says

    Btw, I've never understood melting perfectly good coins for their intrinsic value if it is just to exchange them for increasingly worthless fiat currency. To melt silver and copper to use for industrial purposes I understand.

  36. Anonymous says

    "the meters probably don't accept dollar bills either – do they?

    July 15, 2011 8:46 PM"

    I figure the point was that if folks are going to want to have a dollar coin, they should be able to use it like a coin (ie. vending machines, parking meters, etc).
    Then the obvious of eliminating the one dollar bill, but doubt that will ever happen.

  37. Anonymous says

    Oh, get your 2011 silver proof sets (lowest mintages for silver proof sets to date!) while you can. If silver creeps over $40 (less than 75 cents above today's close), mint may d/c sales for a rate hike!
    The 2011 silver sets look like winners to me. They will likely have 1/2 or less mintage than that of the 2010 silver set.

  38. Anonymous says

    Anon 10:48 PM

    As of the last report the 2011 SILVER PROOF SET has sales of 429,657 and the 2010 SILVER PROOF SET has sales of 568,823. The 2011 SPS may have the lowest sales to date but it is unlikely sales will be half of the 2010 SPS. Right now there is only about a 140,000 difference.

  39. Anonymous says

    If the FS gold coin series were to end, history shows that interest, and thus, demand, generally tend to decline for the series.

    Examples: Presidential dollar signature series, Ike dollar, Susan B. Anthony dollar, Sacagawea dollar, Franklin half dollar,

    How many folks collect (or even show an interest) in these coins? They are the exception, not the rule….

    —————
    If the First Spouse program is discontinued, the existing First Spouse coins would go up in value because you no longer have the possibility of future issues having mintages that are lower. So we would now have a better idea of where all the coins sit in the mintage hierarchy. I think the key and semi-keys would see a nice rise in values, and the rising tide should lift all of the others up a bit as well.

  40. Anonymous says

    It's funny how some say that an ATB 5 oz with a mintage of 27,000 is not very rare, yet a Silver Proof Set with 430,000 and counting is such a low mintage and going to be a winner. I realize they may be the lowest mintage of any year…but so what…there are plenty to go around.

  41. Anonymous says

    It's not the mintage that makes a coin valuable. It's the demand.

    If the US Mint produced 1,000 of a particular quarter and if no one wanted it, then what is it's value? Just 25 cents — face value (at most).

    It's clear that there is limited demand for the 5 ounce P ATB silver coin. If demand were high, secondary market values would be much higher….

    ——–
    It's funny how some say that an ATB 5 oz with a mintage of 27,000 is not very rare, yet a Silver Proof Set with 430,000 and counting is such a low mintage and going to be a winner. I realize they may be the lowest mintage of any year…but so what…there are plenty to go around.

  42. Anonymous says

    I guarantee that if the mint produced only 1000 of a particular quarter there would be a great premium for that coin.

  43. Anonymous says

    I thought the 2009 SPS might be a winner after they sold because I could see the mintage was going to be the lowest SPS to date at that time (just under 700,000 I believe) so I bought about a dozen or so on ebay for an avg price of about $50 (inc. shipping.) Mint price was $52.95.

    But so far they only seem to be selling for around their silver value maybe a little more – which has still been an increase in value from what I paid for them but not too much added collectible value.

    I know that if you add the sales of the 2009 silver quarter sets that brings the total for all the 2009 silver quarters to just under 1 million so the 1999 silver quarters are still the lowest with just over 800,000. But I still don't know why those 1999 SPS's sell for so damn much – 800,000 for a SPS shouldn't be considered rare or scarce either.

    I stopped buying most mint products in 2009 (except for the ATB 5 oz P coins this year) because of the increased prices (even for the clad mint and proof sets) and also because of my increased focus on pm collecting/investing.

    The 2011 SPS's price of $68 seems so high to me even with current silver prices and I might consider them if silver was back to $50 again (or higher) but then the mint would just raise prices again to keep their profit margin about the same. But I am definitely considering the 2011 unc AGE and now maybe some of the FS coins that might start having some of the lowest mintage figures yet – if I can just come up with the money.

    Also some of the prices I've seen for the 2007 FS coins seem to still be a good way to just invest in gold plus with the possibility these coins might be ending early even those coins might have some additional collectible value as well.

  44. Anonymous says

    The 1999 silver proof sets still sell for large premiums even though the sales were over 800,000.
    The 2011 siver proof sets look like they will be winners. The hyped up 2010 sets will be on sale for a full year more than the 2011s. Currently only a little over 400k of the full set and 100k of the silver quarter set have sold(the 2011 silver quarter set may be the real sleeper of sleepers).
    Most sales happen at the start of the sales offering, not the end.

  45. Anonymous says

    Isn't it a possibility that future ATB P silver 5 ounce coins could be produced in numbers less than the 2010 ATB coins?

    I mean, who says that the mint is required to produced 27,000 coins during 2011 and beyond? In fact, the mint could theoretically stop minting them altogether since their production is not required by law….

  46. Anonymous says

    Does anyone find it odd that the Yosemite and Grand Canyon silver P coins are still available for sale?

  47. Anonymous says

    The golden dollar coin is never going to replace the dollar bill. The general public does not want to carry around coinage. More likely, currency as we know it will become even more electronic over time and coins and eventually dollar bills will become things of the past.

    As gold spot moves higher and higher, less people are able to afford it even if they want it. If gold goes to $3-5K as some are predicting, our economy will have hit rock bottom and people will be in survival mode. In other words, you may have trouble selling you gold unless you sell it way below spot. Same thing happened with the real estate bubble. The key with gold is know when to sell, and that time is soon.

  48. Soapy says

    I believe I read (on this blog) that eliminating the paper dollar would save the US Treasury $500 million a year. Can anyone confirm that estimate?

  49. Anonymous says

    If the Presidential and Native American dollars no longer are minted, will that mean lower prices for proof sets and mint sets? That would be good news for collectors.

  50. Anonymous says

    Proof & Mint sets…no, the way the Mint works the price would be the same…just fewer coins.

  51. Anonymous says

    Actually, cancelling the presidential dollars will be a savior for all that collected the presidential clad proof sets. I'm sure these will increase in value, maybe even to issue price!

  52. Anonymous says

    kitco gold ask $1,599.80 an ounce. an all time record high. apmex ask price should easily pass $1,600.00 an ounce.

    silver high at $39.89 an ounce. ATB 5 oz is set only at $37.50 an ounce. it should be a good buy right now.

  53. Anonymous says

    Gold is now at 1596.90 in the overseas market. Heading for a one tier increase at present.

  54. Anonymous says

    Same coin, same grade MS70 silver, made in the last 5 years, gold, gold e/r, blue e/r, black20th, blue 20th these would be a very good coin to look at. there are no other moderns that have such a dif. in price NGC USED 5 DIF LABELS ALL IN MS70. I would buy the gold label coin for around 200 dollars each,much better value.

  55. Anonymous says

    In an attempt to get this back on topic, how long in circulatio9n till the dollar coins start turning brown and ugly?
    I hope micheal weeds out this thread.
    The spelling here is horrible!

  56. Anonymous says

    People throughout Europe get along in their daily lives just fine with the €1 & €2 coins. Americans need to stop wasting money printing and shredding our one dollar bills and do the same.
    If American elected officials can't move forward with this "difficult" change, we truly are a doomed nation.

    Yet I have a question: With the Fed banks storing all of these $1 coins, why does the US Mint website limit the Direct Ship to only two options – and those are backordered to August 1st???

  57. Anonymous says

    yes sir, i was told the same thing fri. when i called. so i ordered 4 $50 AGE,2-proofs johnson and 2 proof grants. i also got lucky. someone returned 5 of the lincoln in UNC. i took them sight unseen. now i am broke until my x-mas bonus. i guess i got lucky.

  58. Anonymous says

    I thought the question who will buy gold at $5K or 10K was interesting.
    If it goes to 5K next year I do see the risk. If it follows the trend… say over the next 4-5 years then I’m sure there will be buyers. Personally I play the ratio game, sell silver – buy gold when the ratio is low. Sell gold – buy silver when the ratio is high.

  59. Anonymous says

    I think I'm gonna take a chance on both the 9/11 silver medals P & W mint marks. I've seen comments for and against the design. But if for some reason I really don't like them I can turn them into gifts. Probably wouldn't send them back. I think the price if ordered before Aug 18 is worth the risk. Ten bucks more afer 5pm 8/18. I guess I missed the sales update on them but as I recall they were slow out of the gate in sales possibly due to all the other silver the mint is churning out.

  60. Anonymous says

    Gold / Silver ratio simplified:
    For a very long time Silver & Gold traded at a 16:1 ratio (16 oz of silver got you 1 oz of gold). A few years back the ratio was 70:1. A few months ago it was 30:1. As I type the ratio is 40:1.

    One metal is undervalued the other is overvalued. I’ll let you decide which is which.

  61. Anonymous says

    Also, I will add if gold is at $5K and oil is at $250 a barrel, eggs $6 a dozen, bread $9 loaf, milk $10a gallon then it’s probably a safe bet!

  62. Anonymous says

    Like somebody said earlier gold is not going up, your purchasing power is going down.

    1% interest on a savings account… I'll stick with the PM

  63. Anonymous says

    As commenters have stated. Yellow metal at 5 large means milk is 10 bucks. Yes a slow steady increase about 15 or so per cent a year on metal is best. Metal is not really an investment but it definitely protects your purchasing power.

    A gallon of gas is only a dime if you use a pre 1965 dime, one with 90% silver. So in sound money (i.e. precious metal) we are in deflation. As 40 yrs ago gas was 25 cents a gallon and now you can get it for a real dime. Milk 39 cents a gallon 40 yrs ago. Now milk is at $3.5o/gal in paper and pot metal money. In real money one thin a dime.

  64. Anonymous says

    No, I’m not Mr. Caps guy. You may not like my sentence structure but you may like my math.
    I stated buying silver in 2009 at around $14. Since then I’ve bought & sold both metals as well as roll searched for 40% & 90% halves. Flip a few ATB sets, UHR and a few others items on the way.

    Today my dollar cost average on silver & gold is more than 50% below current market values. So if I kept the money in the bank & never used my cash back card for purchases I might have made $200 over that time period . If I sell everything today I make 20K.

    I notice a few people on this blog always assume that they know everything about other person responding. When people like me were getting ATB from APMEX graded MS69PL they would comment “you must work there / know somebody”. I’ve been posting on this blog for about 3 weeks, my IP is good.

    Back to the coin dollars baby.

  65. Anonymous says

    It looks like a one-tier price increase is pretty much unavoidable this week. Unless gold takes a SERIOUS pull back for the Wed pm fix back into the current tier range of below $1,550, we WILL see an increase this week. The fixes are low enough that two tiers most likely won't happen, but one tier is definite.

    I'm going to go ahead and pick up a 2011 W gold eagle for the $1,778 price tag before it goes up. At the rate it's going, the gold spot price might be that much in just a few months. I'll go ahead and gamble. Even if it goes back down, I will still own a coin I enjoy!

  66. Anonymous says

    @ 6:42 a.m. "I'm going to go ahead and pick up a 2011 W gold eagle for the $1,778 price tag before it goes up."

    I agree but I have a question concerning the American Gold Eagles for you and others on this site. I noticed that the Proof version of the American Gold Eagle sells for less than the Uncirculated version of the American Gold Eagle on the US Mint site. Don't Proof versions usually cost more than uncirculated versions of the same thing? Why is it that in the case of the AGE, the Proof version is actually less than the Uncirculated version? This seems the opposite of the usual case. Is there some particular reason for this? Might this have something to do with the fact that the Unc. has the "W" on it and, maybe, the Proof doesn't? Thanks to any and all who can provide enlightenment on this situation.

    LL

  67. Anonymous says

    LL,

    The proof version of the 2011 Gold Eagle is selling for $7 more than the uncirculated version on the Mint's website ($1,785 versus $1,778). Both coins carry the "W" Mint Mark for West Point. The main difference is that the uncirculated coin has sold very few coins at the time of this writing (only 3,000 reported sold as of last week's sales report). The proof version, on the other hand, has sold a combined 25,384 through last week as both singles and part of the 4-coin set.

    The uncirculated coin is basically identical to the bullion version, with the addition of the "W" Mint Mark. That little letter can make a HUGE difference to collectors and thus command much larger premiums on the secondary market. There have been over 500,000 1 oz. bullion coins without the Mint Mark sold this year, but only 3,000 of the collector version with the Mint Mark. That helps put it in perspective.

  68. Anonymous says

    To writer at 7:36 a.m. Thank you very much for your explanation. That certainly helps to put things in perspective.

    By the way, believe it or not, I had actually seen the prices as $1775 versus $1778, instead of, as you correctly pointed out, $1785 versus $1778. Hence, my mistaken thinking that the Proof was priced lower than the Uncirculated. My dyslexia, or whatever it is, still exists.

    Thank you for so gently pointing out my mistake and setting things in proper perspective. You are a credit to the blog.

    LL

  69. Anonymous says

    I'll bet the Mint is selling a LOT of gold coins right about now, with gold breaching the $1,600 barrier. I'm really surprised that the Mary Lincoln proof coin is not backordered yet. I wonder how many of those were struck?

    I'm wondering too if the Mint might exercise the option of suspending sales of the gold collector coins, since the price is rising so fast. I remember reading somewhere where they reserve the right to do that.

  70. Anonymous says

    Thats why I placed an order today.
    If gold spikes $50, the mint just might suspend gold sales.

  71. Anonymous says

    Goldbugs keep your eyes open for a two tier jump this week. Still a remote possibility but yellow is staying up over 1600. I haven't run the numbers but eyeballing the fixes appears yellow would have to finish around 1635 today tomorrow and Wednesday for two tiers. One tier almost certain as other commenters stated.

  72. Anonymous says

    1P3 is the Mint product code for the 2011 W Gold Eagle coin, currently priced at $1,778 each and sometime Wednesday morning will be raised to $1,828, possibly $1,878. If the $1,878 price tag does not happen this week, it could well happen next week.

    I just wonder how many more of them the Mint will sell before pulling them off-sale for good. I keep thinking for some reason that 5,000 will be it. The slow early pace of sales made that number seem like a good stopping point. Remember, the Mint is under no obligation to keep making those, especially with demand for the bullion versions so high right now.

    How long do I wait before taking the plunge? If the coins are suddenly declared "sold out", I will have missed a true "golden" opportunity.

  73. Anonymous says

    I do not think Gold price can substain the 1600 level for long; it's likely to go back down to 1500 lvl after the debt crisis in Europe finds some footing…. no need to rush in on the Uncir W Eagle imo

  74. Anonymous says

    Yes, 5000 would be a good guess.Probably the whole initial run.
    Kind of feel sorry for the mr. caps guy taking so much heat from us. Happy, i did not participate in the mean comments to him.

  75. CaptainOverkill says

    I don't know exactly how much the Mint is selling, but today I took the plunge and snapped up:

    A. Some Grant dollar coin rolls
    B. The Mint uncirculated set (since that contains Hayes and Garfield), and;
    C. I took Michael's advice and snagged a gold uncirc MoH. My friend likewise snapped up a gold MoH and also a Julia Grant too. Thank you Michael for the advance warning!

    My thinking was that with gold now $1600, it won't be long before the Mint suspends sales of commemorative gold products. Even if we have a price dip later on, now that the $1600 barrier's been officially breached, I think passing the mark won't really be an issue a second time. I just did not want to wait and take a chance.

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