Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee Looks Ahead to New Dollar Coins

Astronaut John B. Herrington (Chickasaw) and Michael E. Lopez-Alegria, STS-113 mission specialists, work on the newly installed Port One (P1) truss on the International Space Station in November 2002. The 2019 Native American $1 coin will honor the involvement of Native Americans in the space program. (NASA photo)

Astronaut John B. Herrington (Chickasaw; at center) and Michael E. Lopez-Alegria, STS-113 mission specialists, work on the newly installed Port One (P1) truss on the International Space Station in November 2002. The 2019 Native American $1 coin will honor the involvement of Native Americans in the space program. (NASA photo)

Dennis Tucker serves the hobby community as publisher at Whitman Publishing, the nation’s largest publisher of numismatic references. He holds the position of numismatic specialist on the CCAC.

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017, the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee (CCAC, met telephonically, with members calling in from both coasts and points in between. U.S. Mint staff and officers coordinated the meeting from the agency’s impressive headquarters on 9th Street in Washington, D.C.

The CCAC was established by Congress in 2003 to advise the secretary of the Treasury on the themes and designs of U.S. coins and medals. Our mission and purpose is to serve as an informed, experienced, and impartial resource for the Treasury secretary and to represent the interests of American citizens and collectors. Our meetings are open to the public and the media.

Circulating coins (such as America the Beautiful quarters), bullion coinage (silver, gold, and platinum), commemoratives, Congressional Gold Medals, national medals, and the like all fall under our congressionally mandated review.

The January 17 meeting introduced the general themes for the 2019 and 2020 Native American dollars, part of an ongoing coinage series that started in 2009. Past years’ themes include subjects ranging from the Three Sisters to Mohawk Ironworkers and the famous military Code Talkers.

The themes for 2019 and 2020 were developed by the National Museum of the American Indian, and were vetted and endorsed by the Mint’s legislated liaisons at the National Congress of American Indians, the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs, and the Congressional Native American Caucus of the House of Representatives. The CCAC’s goal was to give input on what the Mint’s artists should consider as they begin designing the 2019 and 2020 coins. We were joined by Dr. James R. Adams, senior historian of the National Museum of the American Indian, whose research interests include tribal sovereignty in U.S. constitutional law, North American tribal horse culture, and diverse other subjects.

The 2019 Dollar and America’s Space Program

The 2019 dollar will honor the involvement of Native Americans in the United States space program. The Mint noted that “American Indians have been on the modern frontier of space flight since the beginning of NASA.”

Several notable American Indians were discussed in connection with the U.S. space program. John Bennett Herrington (Chickasaw) served on the International Space Station in 2002, making three space walks. Jerry Chris Elliott (Cherokee, Osage) started working for NASA’s Mission Control in 1966. Both men are still active in the aerospace field. U.S. coins, of course, rarely depict living people.

John Bennett Harrington. (NASA photo)

John Bennett Harrington (Chickasaw. (NASA photo)

Jerry Chris Elliott. (NASA photo)

Jerry Chris Elliott (Cherokee, Osage). (NASA photo)

Another space scientist, Mary Golda Ross (Cherokee, 1908–2008), considered the first female American Indian engineer, helped develop the spacecraft for the Gemini and Apollo programs. She was the individual we gravitated toward as a potential subject, if a portrait ends up being used in the design. Adding to Ross’s already considerable significance, 2019 marks the 50th anniversary of the Apollo 11 landing on the Moon (the Mint will be issuing a separate commemorative coin series on that topic).

Mary Golda Ross.

Mary Golda Ross (Cherokee). (Photo courtesy Cherokee Almanac)

Two things I noted in our discussion:

  • Ross didn’t just do her job and quietly retire. Yes, she designed rocket missiles and satellites, but she also actively recruited young women and Native Americans into engineering careers. There might be a way to capture that spirit of mentoring and role-modeling—the “people” side of space exploration—in the coin’s design.
  • Ross was trained and educated as a mathematician, a field she held dear and often spoke about. Incorporating mathematical elements into the design would symbolize that cornerstone of her engineering career.

I liked CCAC member Herman Viola’s observation that Native Americans are “always looking to the sky,” an idea that might translate well into the coin’s design. Robert Hoge suggested the use of an arrow, symbolic of flight (noting that many of the Native tribes involved in the Code Talkers medal program used such a design element), as well as “something celestial.” Dr. Adams noted that, in addition to arrows, star imagery is important in many Native cultures. Committee Chair Mary Lannin proposed a design element incorporating mathematical symbols shaped into an arrow. Tom Uram wondered if the Mint will tie the 2019 dollar coin to that year’s Apollo 11 commemoratives, to give a publicity boost to both coinage programs. Erik Jansen cautioned against connecting the 2019 coin’s design too closely to NASA rather than to the broader theme of Native Americans and space flight. Michael Moran pointed out the dual significance of Mary Ross’s being not only an American Indian but also a woman, in a field traditionally dominated by men; he also noted that her grandfather was John Ross, the famous principal chief of the Cherokee Nation from the 1820s to the 1860s.

The 2020 Dollar and the Movement Against Discrimination

The 2020 Native American dollar will honor Elizabeth Peratrovich and Alaska’s 1945 anti-discrimination law—the first such law passed in the United States and its territories. The Mint notes that Peratrovich (Tlingit), “through her advocacy for Alaskan Natives with her husband, Roy, and an impassioned speech in the Alaskan Senate in support of the law, is widely credited with getting it passed.” Dr. Adams further observed that Alaska’s anti-discrimination law was later cited in New York State’s first such legislation, an instance of progress in a faraway U.S. territory having a ripple effect and, ultimately, great influence on the continental States.

Elizabeth Peratrovich. (Wikimedia Commons photo)

Elizabeth Peratrovich (Tlingit). (Wikimedia Commons photo)

Something that stands out to me, in Peratrovich’s life and experience, is her activity in the Alaska Native Brotherhood and its sister organization, the Alaska Native Sisterhood. These groups sought to end anti-Native racism in Alaska. I find it significant that they were organized in 1912, the year after Peratrovich was born. Anti-discrimination was a cause that Alaskans were fighting for when she was a child, and the movement continued into her adulthood, involving and affecting many people. I think capturing the spirit of that movement, and the active involvement of many voices and individuals, could bring a sense of energy to the coin’s design.

For the 2020 coin, Robert Hoge suggested a design of clasped hands, illustrating a coming together of different cultures. I noted several numismatic precedents in this motif, including Indian Peace medals that were given to Native chiefs as symbols of the friendship of the American government in the early 1800s, and, more recently, one of the Westward Journey nickel designs of 2004. Several other committee members noted their approval of the clasped-hands concept, while also admitting that it might be “overdone,” having appeared fairly recently in various coins and medals. Jeanne Stevens-Sollman suggested a circle of hands, a design used to good effect in a 1973 British 50-pence coin honoring the European Economic Community. Erik Jansen wondered if the symbolism of clasped hands might be more significant to an Anglo audience than a Native American one, and suggested an eagle, raven, and wolf might speak to the inclusion and interdependence of many tribes. Michael Moran suggested the word “Equality” be used in the design. April Stafford, director of the Mint’s Office of Design Management, pointed out that 2020 marks the 75th anniversary of Elizabeth Peratrovich’s famous Senate testimony. CCAC chair Mary Lannin recommended that the coin’s designers read the text of Peratrovich’s inspiring and influential speech, and look for words or phrases that leap off the page and could be incorporated into the artwork.

Moving Forward Into 2019 and 2020

One challenge with all of the Native American dollar coins, of course, is their small size—they’re minted in the “golden mini dollar” format, smaller than the old-fashioned Morgan silver dollar. The Mint’s artists and sculptors will be working with the end product in mind: a coin just one inch in diameter.

Our thoughts and observations will be passed along to the Mint’s coin designers. I look forward, with the rest of the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee, to seeing what they develop to honor these important subjects in Native American history. In the coming months we’ll meet again to review and discuss finished sketches, and we’ll then make our final formal recommendations to the secretary of the Treasury. If you’d like to share your thoughts, please feel free to contact me at   ❑


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  1. Numismatrix says

    They should also include Fred Begay, the first Native American PhD (Physics) who did work at Los Alamos Laboratory to understand plasma propulsion.

  2. cagcrisp says

    Kareem Abdul-Jabbar has just been announced that he will be filling the vacancy on the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee (CCAC) that was created by the resignation of Steven Roach…

  3. says

    I guess we’ll be getting a domed commorative basketball coin in 2019,

    To accompany the domed lunar landing commorative coins in 2019

  4. Darek says

    Another PC decision. What advice can he gives about the coins? We need different kind of artist in CCAC. It doesn’t matter if he is coin collector or not.

  5. says

    The guy from Poland is criticizing this as PC? What do you know of PC Darek? What do you know of our country and our history with people of different backgrounds being here.

    You are new to America, right? So please, don’t take this the wrong way, but you might want to just shut up about PC!! If not, feel free to go back to Poland. We are an inclusive nation, and you have no clue why Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was selected to the CCAC. Do you know anything about the CCAC (“we need different kind of artist”)?

    Here’s Kareem Abdul-Jabbar’s own take on PC, for those open minded enough to comprehend the meaning:

  6. cagcrisp says

    ” We are an inclusive nation”

    “The guy from Poland”

    ” We are an inclusive nation”

    “you might want to just shut up about PC!! ”

    ” We are an inclusive nation”

    “feel free to go back to Poland”

    ” We are an inclusive nation”

    “those open minded enough to comprehend the meaning”

    ” We are an inclusive nation”…

  7. says

    When someone criticize the appointment of a notable black American to a coin committee as being PC, they are saying he is likely not deserving of that position based on his merits as an American, and it is only because he is black.

    So I believe it is you Darek that sees only black and white, and assumes the choice of a black person for this position was a decision based only on wanting to be PC.

    Yes, we are an inclusive nation, so deriding the appointment of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar as being PC (which certainly implies he is undeserving) is counter to that spirit!

    A linguist explains how the far-right hijacked political correctness

    Why don’t you explain in detail Darek what YOU meant by saying “Another PC decision“. Do it! Stand up for your beliefs! Can you honestly say, your comment has absolutely nothing to do with race?

  8. The Real "Cool" Brad says

    Got a follow up from the numismatic forum, interesting next steps:

    “As we kick off 2017, five key projects are underway:

    1. Establish a pre-order system:

    ‒ The pre-order system will be implemented for the 2018 World War I American Veterans Centennial commemorative coin program, allowing customers a 30-day pre-order window.

    ‒ Currently, the 2018 production schedule is being developed, which will determine on sale dates for our products.

    2. Develop fractional Buffalo coins:

    ‒ The Mint is considering minting and issuing fractional Buffalo 24K Gold Proof coins in 2017 in 1/2 oz., 1/4 oz., and 1/10 oz. weights.

    3. Implement bulk packaging:

    ‒ Already in development prior to the Numismatic Forum, dealers will have the option to order the 2017 American Eagle Silver Proof in bulk packaging.

    4. Increase portfolio of high relief silver medals with date and Mint mark:

    ‒ A four-medal set based on the designs of the 2017 American Liberty Gold Coin is scheduled to be launched mid-October 2017.

    5. Commitment to outreach – establish next year’s Numismatic Forum:

    ‒ The next forum is being planned for Fall 2017 in Washington, D.C. – our team will communicate details as they are finalized.”

  9. Darek says

    one fine dime,
    I explained my point in my post. Jabbar was an artist on basketball court. In CCAC we need different kind of artists with passion about the coins. You like that he got the “job ” in CCAC because he is black and has few collectible nickels in his pocket. Your are the biggest racist here.

  10. says

    woah buddy. I didn’t say anything about him getting the job because he is black. My point is that you implied that by saying “Another PC decision”.

    If you want to clear things up, tell us why you said “Another PC decision”.

    By the way, the CCAC is not comprised of just artists, you clearly know nothing about that organization if you think that. Here is some info for you.

  11. says

    As the Coin Update article says, Mr. Abdul-Jabbar is filling “the vacancy created this year by the resignation of Steven Roach, a member representing the interests of the general public.

    From the bio of Steve Roach on the CCAC website:
    Steve Roach serves the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee as a member representing the interests of the general public in the coinage of the United States. Steve is a certified member of the International Society of Appraisers and sits on its board of directors. He is an independent appraiser and consultant focusing on rare coins and fine art, working with collectors and their advisers across the country.

    A respected journalist and lifelong coin collector, Steve is the former editor-in-chief of Coin World, the world’s largest coin hobby publication, and continues to serve as an editor-at-large. Two years spent as a professional coin grader, nearly three years at a major coin wholesaler and a stint as a paintings specialist at an international auction house have given Steve a unique perspective on numismatics. He previously served on the Michigan State Quarter Commission and is an instructor at the American Numismatic Association’s Summer Seminar.

    He holds a B.A. in Art History and Organizational Studies from the University of Michigan and received his J.D. from Ohio State University’s Moritz College of Law.

    I’m interested to see what they put up about Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Then one can compare the two and decide if they believe one is more qualified than the other. But to automatically say “another PC decision” is really rude and uncalled for.

  12. Darek says

    one fine dime,
    I honestly saying that my comment about Jabbar had nothing because of the color of his skin. I called him artist, because he was an artist on the basketball court. You see what you want to see. I’m done with you.

  13. achmed says

    @Derek: Your comments are boring!!! Why not have a former basketball-player and present columnist in the CCAC, no matter of what origin he is. It has got nothing to do with PC.
    I think that Mr. Jabbar as a coin collector has a passion for coins. No matter what colour his skin has.

    If there comes nothing positive from you: Do not write comments.

  14. Louis says

    @Real Cool Brad- can you clarify where you got that info.? I followed the forum closely and did not hear about several of those points. Did the Mint send this to you or someone who went to the forum? I may have missed an earlier post, which could be why it is confusing to me. I don’t recall hearing anything about a pre-order system or bringing back the fractional Bufs until now, both of which would be great.

  15. Louis says

    The easiest way to end this silly fight is to look at the info. above which notes that the specific slot on the CCAC that Roach had, which Jabbar is filling, represents the interests of the general public in coinage. he is of course well-qualified for that on the basis of being a collector, and I think it is a great move as it will bring fresh air and new perspectives.

  16. cagcrisp says

    @The Real “Cool” Brad , “1. Establish a pre-order system:

    ‒ The pre-order system will be implemented for the 2018 World War I American Veterans Centennial commemorative coin program, allowing customers a 30-day pre-order window.”

    As you understand it, how will this be implemented? Will customers COMMIT to ordering ? And thus the Mint uses those numbers for Mintage estimates? Will customers pay during the 30 day window? What about HHL during the 30 day window?…

  17. Louis says

    Thanks, Brad. I don’t mean to pry, just trying to establish some sourcing as I was planning to call for the return of fractionals and it is good to know it is being considered.

  18. HarryB says

    @Louis: let’s all get behind return of the Fractional Buffalos! Any recommendations as to how best voice support? Harry

  19. cagcrisp says

    IF I was a fan of FS or the uncirculated NPS, I would Not be happy with the prospect of fractional Buffs. I see fractional Buffs cannibalizing fractional AGE’s. The pie is just SO big. You May expand the Initial pie somewhat but down the road you are going to have fractional AGEs competing with fractional Buffs. Even if you Grow the Gold pie 125-150%, you’re still going to half to split the pie in smaller and smaller slices.

    You will get a Palladium coin and I just haven’t seen anything from the mint that has addressed the declining customer base.

    I personally would MUCH prefer fractional Buffs to fractional AGEs. I’m not a buyer of fractional AGEs and truthfully I would only be a buyer of fractional Buffs for gifting purposes.

    SO…for me you are just moving deck chairs on the Titanic…

  20. Louis says

    @Harry- Not sure yet. I am trying to get the Mint to confirm that they are considering it. It does not seem like this would require cong. action, so it is a matter of the Mint moving forward.
    I will write in support of it, and you may want to send a letter to the editor of one of the main publications supporting it, possibly in response to the article I will post tomorrow if you are so inclined.
    One thing to consider is they are no longer making FS coins, so this could be aimed in a way at giving former spouse collectors something new to collect.
    Commems ($5 gold) I don’t really see as a signif. factor since there are only 1 or 2 coins per year of a 1/4 oz and issued in dwindling numbers.

  21. Darek says

    If they start to mint fractional Buffalo, I hope the mintage will be higher than the mintage of 2008.

  22. John Q. Coinage says

    KAreem is an Americsn icon, scholar, UCLA grad (!) and jazz lover. I think he is also a cancer survivor. I can’t figure WHO would object to him. He also collects coins which is what WE need on the CCAC. I am sure Mr. Trump may place some of his people in asap IF he can & Kareem would be a good balance maybe.

  23. Louis says

    Having a icon and celebrity and one who works with kids could help bring much needed attention to the hobby. Not to mention being a millionaire he must have a hell of a coin collection.

    I agree on the Bufs mintages must be higher than 2008.

  24. says

    @cagcrisp –

    Trying to follow your moving chairs metaphor.

    As collectors, don’t we sort of like it when mintages are low? Doesn’t that often spur sales because many perceive low mintages to equate with higher value down the road.

    …down the road you are going to have fractional AGEs competing with fractional Buffs. Even if you Grow the Gold pie 125-150%, you’re still going to half to split the pie in smaller and smaller slices.

    So splitting the pie like this would likely create more low mintage coins because all these programs melt whatever isn’t sold, right? If the AGE and Buff fractional collectors “compete” then each issue sells fewer coins in a given year, and those sold end up with higher value due to the lower mintages. Who loses here?

    Please elaborate on the point you’re making that I’m evidently missing here.

  25. Dustyroads says

    cagcrisp, Moving chairs is right, but to say “moving chairs on the Titanic” is just a bit cynical.
    Also, I’m not so sure that the buyers of commemorative gold coins are the same people buying gold fractional coins.
    Last year the Tribute coins competed will ALL gold coins. This year we are back to a more normal release scheduled of offering different issues to different types of buyers. But, and it’s a big one, it will be interesting to see if the Mint will be able to pull any sales away from bullion. That is their idea, isn’t it?

  26. Dustyroads says

    One fine dime, I’m confused by your question. You should know that lower mintage does not always mean higher value.

  27. says

    @Dustyroads – yes good, point. But I think the perception that it may, can effect sales.

    I guess my point was, so what? So what if the AGE and BUF fractionals compete. People like different things, it’s not like the Mint is flooding its catalog with bugs bunny gold coins…or teeny tiny fractionals like I’ve seen at some world mints.

  28. A different Jeff says

    @cag –
    The ‘pre-order’ window sounds somewhat like the standard ordering method pre-web. The coins had a pre-release price, typically $30 or so less for gold when the gold commems ran in the $180 to $200 range. for 30 days that price held, then the ‘real’ price went into effect for the duration of availability, typically the balance of the one-year (not calendar year) period. I would always order during that period, by mail, and sometime in the next two months the coins would show up. The only time I ever had a response that my order had been rejected was for the 1986 Statue of Liberty 3 coin sets (proof and uncirc) because they had sold out. This seems to accomplish two goals – first, those who want the coins would get them (mint to order) and second, no more of this ‘early release’ or ‘first strike’ nonsense. The advantage to the mint is that they will know how many coins to strike, so inventory can be better managed – no more ‘out of stock’ or ‘backordered’ status – and also much less pressure on the web ordering process. Only if an unreasonably low production limit is established will we see repeats of the past couple of year’s sellouts. That;s my take on this anyway. We’ll have to see how the Mint implements it.

  29. cagcrisp says

    “As collectors, don’t we sort of like it when mintages are low? ”

    Depends on Why mintage is low. Mintage is low for Current FS and NPS because there is no Demand. Demand for fractionals will eventually be Low because you are splitting products. Mintage is low for some classical Golds because those coins were not produced for numismatic purposes. They were circulated in everyday business or for banking transactions. Those coins are in true Demand.

    “Who loses here?”

    Anyone that chases Low Mintage Wonders will lose because Eventually the US Mint will follow the rest of the world mints and start selling lower and lower mintage coins at a higher and higher premium and what seems like low mintage now will be high in the future…

  30. Erik H says

    I’ve been waiting since 2008 for the return of fractional Gold Buffalos.

    Especially if they do them in Proof, Uncirculated and regular bullion.

  31. Louis says

    No one knows what the Mint may or may not do down the road, but as I see it our mint stands apart from most pf the others in so many ways. The others can make all that stuff because they are either privatized or don’t need approval for coin programs from their governments, and the others are pretty much all strictly set up to make money. Ours has statutory missions that include, among other goals, enabling as many people as possible to buy the coins they want, and it comes under a major amount of flak when it creates a product that is a big money maker for a small number, while locking out others. It’s really a different business model. Rather than lots of coins with ultra low mintages used to hype demand, it is more likely we will see more and more minted to demand.

  32. cagcrisp says

    @A Different Jeff

    Thanks for the reply. I would agree that it would take pressure off the ordering system. I would agree that anyone that wants a coin would get one. How are returns handled? That seems to be a major problem with all releases now. If you have a set number of sales for a 30 day pre release, how do you prevent dealers from ordering thousands, cherry picking and returning for the sole purpose of manipulating mintage numbers?

    Seems to me that if you commit to purchase (mint to demand) for 30 days then you need some accountability from the buyer that they indeed will purchase what they say they will.

    Your example seems to be pre-Internet and pre First whatever and I wouldn’t think the TPGs would take this development favorably.

    Thanks again for the follow up. I’m all for going forward with a system that works for the most…

  33. cagcrisp says

    @Dustyroads, “moving chairs on the Titanic” is just a bit cynical.”

    Yep. Could be.

    The point isn’t that the ship is going down, it’s just that it really doesn’t matter IF you don’t do something to get a Bigger Tent…

  34. hawkster says

    Kareem’s appointment to the CCAC is a slam dunk. Actually, he was more known for his sky hook.

    For someone who presents himself as a relatively recent arrival from Poland, you seem to exhibit more than a rudimentary knowledge of U.S. coin collecting, as evidenced by your mention of Buffalo fractionals.

  35. GoldFishin says

    Bring on the fractional gold buffaloes!!! Make my mint purchasing a whole lot easier.

    You are now free to return to your regularly scheduled propagandist programming. 😉

  36. says

    Bring on the fractional gold Buffaloes IN PROOF, BURNISHED, & BULLION!!! Make my mint purchasing a whole lot easier, so I don’t have to spend $11,000 to finally pick up 2008 4-coin sets.

    You are now free to return to your regularly scheduled Troll’istic propagandist programming. 😉

  37. Tom says

    Karem is obviously a feel good somehow pc appointment for the committee. I mean when you consider the serious credentials of the person who he is replacing, Steve Roach who has been all over the ‘coin world’. Just being a collector doesn’t exactly fill out the resume, otherwise most of us on this bog would be ‘Fully Qualified’ and since I have a good eye for Art I’m 1st. Ha!
    He was probably Obamas B-ball buddy so he set him up and gave him a shot.
    Nice thing to do for retirement, Heck maybe he will be good at it I don’t know.
    (true I don’t think Obama going to be playing for the Lakers in February?
    but he will be in D.C. …and …So will Karem…Nice!

  38. cagcrisp says

    @KCSO, IF they make a 4-coin 2017 set of the Buffs, I’ll 30 day pre-sell you, and you only, a set for $9,900.

    (That’s a 10% discount according to Common Core)…

  39. says

    Haha.., I think I’d rather be arranging those deck chairs.., blub, blub, blub…

    My bigger issue with a 4-coin set is that I’d have to renege on the committed recess until 2019, curtail my expenditures on the Walkers.., & then blow my 2019 budget on ’17 Buffaloes, when I’ve already overextended on the ’16 budget…

    Yeah, the mint knows how to hook in us suckers…

    I’ll be surprised if we see fractional Buffaloes, they don’t want any competition for their 225th Anniversary Grande Masterpiece.

  40. Darek says

    In the previous post I stated that I started collecting coins from the US Mint in 2007 ( Jamestown, Martha and Abigail). I had some extra cash, so I was buying amost every PM coin and I have fractional Buffalo in my collection.

  41. The Real "Cool" Brad says

    Sorry they were just mentioned in a follow up email from Rett Jeppson. Don’t know any more details than what I’ve copied and pasted. You’re right, many of the details weren’t really showcased during the forum so it was a pleasant surprise.

  42. Don Cantrell says

    New buffalo fractionals will knock down the premium of the 2008 fractional buffalos. I’d like to see the Mint work on quality control insted of new product lines. If they just HAVE to make buffalo fractionals, they should get Congress to allow silver fractional buffalos. More people could afford them. And silver fractionals would fill a niche of no silver fractionals.

  43. Dustyroads says

    “I’ll be surprised if we see fractional Buffaloes, they don’t want any competition for their 225th Anniversary Grande Masterpiece.”

    Au contraire Mon Fraire the Mint knows the score. The Buffalo fractionals would sell like sun block at the beach. They want the Buffs…they need the Buffs!

  44. Erik H says

    Don, my thoughts are that the price of the 2008 will probably go up especially if the mintage increase’s in future years, 2008 now becomes a must have.

  45. cagcrisp says

    IF you see fractional Buffs it will come Q4 CY17 (along with Paladium coin) . Numbers are already made for FY17 because of the WLH and the 2017 HR. You need something for FY18. By October, all the Steam will be gone from the HR, the AGEs and what little juice the BT Gold has.

    IF the Mint Releases fractional Buffs 6 months After AGE release you will have less cannibalization and you have a chance of jump starting the last quarter of the calendar year…

  46. So Krates says

    “…they should get Congress to allow silver fractional buffalos. More people could afford them. And silver fractionals would fill a niche of no silver fractionals.”

    Do we really need silver fractionals? Seems like a solution looking for a problem. That’s what 90% halves, quarters and dimes are for.

  47. cagcrisp says

    Silver fractional Buffaloes would need the Same legislative actions as any other Silver coin.

    That’s why the Mint is doing Silver medals…

  48. data dave says

    For those watching the S Mint quarter sales, it looks like Cumberland could set a new low. Saratoga (1.046M) and Shawnee (1.029M) have already passed Bombay Hook (1.014M) but Cumberland is at 0.975M with only about 15 weeks left until it should be removed. Harpers Ferry and Roosevelt are a hair ahead of Cumberland and have more weeks left.

  49. So Krates says

    Can the critics who continuously cite Political Correctness as a motivator for some coin designs and decisions acknowledge the dwindling base of collectors and the need to expand the tent from a business model perspective? Perhaps it’s not political. Maybe they’re just trying to reach a wider audience in order to get more customers like every other business.

  50. So Krates says

    @ longarm – Ok so maybe some won’t buy the HR or the rose gold breast cancer coin, but most will still get their ATBs and proof sets like always, right? Worth a try

  51. says

    Thanks but no thanks will be the message I send to the mint, looks like I need to fill another 5 gallon bucket of pre 65 silver and pre 33 gold is looking pretty good to me. With 5 lbs. of gold and my gold/silver ratio at 1/60 I won’t miss giving the mint my green paper(although they might miss it). If Trump restores some sense to the coin designs the mint is pumping out I might be a buyer again, but that’s a big “if”.
    A hundred years ago a $100 bought what $2201.90 buys today, so spend your cash wisely.

    CPI inflation calculator

  52. So Krates says

    longarm says, “CCAC what a bunch of crooked cronies against collectors”

    Please tell us why you think the author is crooked and against you?

  53. cagcrisp says

    This is what I posted January 8th…

    FY12-FY15 the Mint had a Net Loss in Total of $31.5 million on a combination of the Silver Proof set, the Proof set and the uncirculated coin set.

    FY15 Lost $8.5 million on Annual Sets
    FY14 Lost $16.9 million on Annual Sets
    FY13 Lost $3.4 million on Annual Sets
    FY12 Lost $2.7 million on Annual Core Sets

    SO…As sales of the Annual Sets continue going South, either prices must Increase (catch 22) OR we will continue to lose money and Gold/Platinum/Silver will have to continue to carry the water bucket for profitability…

  54. cagcrisp says

    This is what I am posting Today…

    According to the audited numbers for FY16 the Annual Sets continue to go southward

    FY16 Lost $24.1 million on Annual Sets

    SO…Now in the past 5 years the Mint has lost $55.6 million on a combination of the Silver Proof set, the Proof set and the uncirculated coin set.

    At some point Gold/Platinum/Silver will not be able to carry all the other products…

  55. cagcrisp says

    Gold AM Fix $1,199.10
    Gold PM Fix $1,200.55

    …SO…For 4 Fixes we are Averaging $1,199.76

    Can’t get much closer than that…

  56. cagcrisp says

    The following is strictly about the Numismatic side of the Mint’s business…

    Because of the late date issue of the Proof ASE, the profitability of FY16 was even more the responsibility of Gold/Platinum.

    Total Net Income (excluding seigniorage) for FY16 for ALL numismatic products was $8.9 million.

    Total Net Income for FY16 for Gold/Platinum numismatic products was $41.1 million.

    …SO…Silver coin products, annual sets, quarter products, presidential and first spouse medals, commemorative and miscellaneous products (excluding seigniorage) Lost $32.2 million.

  57. data dave says

    @cagcrisp – I would like to know why seigniorage is excluded for the sets but not for the gold?? These numbers are funny numbers based on how the mint chooses to allocate costs and account for seigniorage. I have posted about this in the past but got no response. It would make a lot more sense to look at cost of goods produced and what they sell for to determine whether you are making money or not.

    Either that $250 box of NA dollars cost $25 +$20 overhead (based on production costs) or $250 + $20 overhead (based on “seigniorage” costs). So do you book a $230 profit or a $5 profit on this item?? Booking a $5 profit and shoving the other $225 into a different pocket is stupid accounting.

  58. bobo says

    Cagcrisp wrote: “how do you prevent dealers from ordering thousands, cherry picking and returning for the sole purpose of manipulating mintage numbers?”

    Why doesn’t the mint place limits on what % of ordered items can be returned? For example, if not more than 25% of items can be returned, the big boys will not order or return 80% after having cherry-picked out the top 20% of coins for grading. To protect the little guy from receiving picked-over refuse coins, this rule might only kick in on orders over some amount, like $1500.

  59. data dave says

    Maybe if the mint lets the big boys order in bulk without OGP and gives them a discount, then the mint should not allow returns on those items.

  60. cagcrisp says

    @data dave “I would like to know why seigniorage is excluded for the sets but not for the gold??”

    Answer: There is NO seigniorage assigned to Gold/Platinum products. Never has been

    This is how the Mint defines seigniorage: “Seigniorage is the difference between the face value and cost of producing CIRCULATING COINAGE. (My emphasis on Circulating coinage).

    On the numismatic side concerning seigniorage: “Seigniorage portion results from the sale of CIRCULATING COINS (boxes, bags and rolls) directly to the public through the numismatic channels. (My emphasis on Circulating coins)…

  61. cagcrisp says

    @bobo, “Why doesn’t the mint place limits on what % of ordered items can be returned? ”

    I’ve always thought that would be a fair proposition. I would prefer it based on a percentage of sales dollars.

    We ALL pay for returns. Maybe have a % for restocking IF you can’t prove there is a problem coin.

    As previously posted here by someone returning 10 of 25 NPS Golds because they ALL 10 had the same mark.

    IF you read enough posts on here and other blog posts, when there is a HOT product you have a much smaller percentage of returns vs. a non HOT product.

    Remember how many Winged Liberty Dimes were returned/cancelled After Launch 6,414 (122,510-116,096)?

    And yet..

    …With the secondary market showing Mid to Upper $280s at the time of LAUNCH #2…There has been a Total of 59 coins returned/cancelled (124,950-124,891).

    Same coins that were returned/cancelled the First time were Sold and kept the Second time…

  62. data dave says

    @cagcrisp – The mint made enough “seigniorage” on the dollar program over the years you reference to wipe out the total loss. Since these are NOT CIRCULATING COINS, that profit should count of the numismatic side of the balance sheet.

  63. sharks2th says

    Has anyone offered any proof the big boys are allowed to return large numbers of items without being banned from future purchasing? A lot of people talk about theoretical returns but I’ve never seen any proof of this going on. I recall reading somewhere in the last 20 or so years the mint would refuse to continue to sell to customers who had a high number of returns. This would be counter to the statements made here by some.

    If anyone can provide evidence of large returns it would shed some light on how future items which are “presold” might be treated if purchased in large quantities.

    From what I’ve seen, the big boys tend to “dump” the less desirable items at a discount in ogp on their websites or on the Bay. This would indicate to me they are not making returns in bulk, but rather dumping the low grade items and making their money on tpg graded 69 and 70 items.

    As for the ccac membership, I’d like to see more people like “us” everyday collectors and less of the well connected coin industry people on the committee. I think an everyday collector like Jabbar would provide a better service to everyday collectors than a big shot from the aftermarket and marketing industry.

    More “little guy/gal” members on the ccac like Louis and Jabbar actually give the everyday collector better representation of what “we” the collectors would like to see.

  64. Old Big Bird says

    @bobo Here is a good reason not to limit the percentage of returns. At the end of the year I ordered 5 of the Silver proof sets. When they came in 3 of those sets had the three president proof set lenses with large air bubbles on the reverse side. (Note this has been a common problem with the 3 coin president proof lenses)
    So I called the Mint and received a return label. Today, I received the replacement 3 Silver proof sets. And guess what ALL 3 PRESIDENT PROOF SET HAD LARGE AIR BUBBLES ON THE REVERSE SIDE. These where even worst than the first ones that I had received. So now I had to call the US Mint again and get another return label due to their poor quality. So if there was a limit on the return percent, what would stop them from just sending out junkie quality products. Note this also happened in the middle of last year when I had also ordered 5 Silver proof set and again when I received my original order of just the President proof sets. My best guess is that the three coin set has had a problem in the packaging and sealing process. This was not as back on all of the 4 coin president proof sets.

  65. HarryB says

    @Louis Golino, Author: great article, your voice is one the Mint listens to from my observation. Harry

  66. Mint News Blog says

    What HarryB said — I have a feeling the Mint listens to you, @Louis. I enjoyed the story, and your then-vs-now analysis of the market for fractional Buffalo coins. I’ve been meaning to ask you: do you think the Mint could successfully issue even smaller gold coins, like 1/20- or even 1/25-oz.? There’s something gemlike about a perfectly executed, tiny coin, and it would be nice for collectors who might enjoy participating in the gold programs but are constrained to a silver budget.

  67. Louis Golino, Author says

    Thanks, Diana. Your kind words are greatly appreciated.
    That is an interesting question on the tiny gold coins. I see no reason why our mint could not produce such coins, though they would require planchets we have never used. To me the question is how much of a market is there for those little gold coins. A marketing study might help.
    As I see it most people who buy coins want the largest they can afford because bigger coins are more impressive, and it is easier to see the detail too. But of course there are limits due to budgets. Coins of the sizes of Buffaloes that may return are in the sweet spot I think.

  68. Tom P. - MA says

    There is a market for the smaller gold coins. Personally I collect the 1/20th ounce pieces each year from Mexico and China. Canada and Australia also produce pieces as small as .5 grams.

    Mexico produces fractional silver pieces but looking at the mintages the average seems to be under 100,000 total pieces each year for all fractionals combined. The problem with fractional silver and gold is the premiums. Mexican 1/20 ounce silver pieces will generally set you back at least $3.

  69. gatortreke says

    I’ll weigh in on the appointment of Jabbar to the CCAC. I can see the argument that he might not be the most qualified person on the Committee but his position isn’t for someone who is the most credentialed, just someone who is a collector so he satisfies the requirement.

    I find it hard to balance the argument by some that this is pc to the arguments that the hobby is dying, currently the domain of aging white men. Any attempt to try and broaden the collector base to different races, gender, etc… is deemed to be pc and is criticized but to continue doing things as we’ve been doing it would seem to guarantee we’ll continue to get the same results, i.e., a declining collector base. You can’t complain about a declining collector base and complain about attempts to expand it.

    Therefore, I have no problem with his appointment. He’s a self proclaimed collector, willing to serve and bring attention to the coin hobby. Is this not a positive? If he can bring just a tiny percentage of the sports base with him to the hobby by showing them the hobby is “cool” or whatever, then it is a huge win IMO.

    Also, thanks to Louis for letting us know the 2017 HR Liberty coin will be an “enhanced” proof. If the enhancements are anything like we had on the 2013 enhanced uncirculated silver eagle, then this coin will prove to be one of my new favorites.

  70. hawkster says

    Members of the CCAC have an advisory role as to themes and designs of U.S. Mint coin offerings. Who exactly is “qualified” for such a role?
    I would offer that such a person should have a good handle on the history of U.S. coins and medals. He or she should also have a good perspective on modern Mint products and be able to offer suggestions as to future Mint offerings.
    Probably most importantly, such a person should be able to judge and recommend design submissions for proposed coins and medals which will be embraced by the coin community.
    Kareem is an intelligent individual. A graduate of the now defunct Power Memorial H.S. in New York City and UCLA , he has always been aware of, and publicly commented on, social issues.
    Being a knowledgeable and committed coin collector, as many posters have suggested, will enable him to serve on the CCAC in a unique capacity.
    Haven’t we, in past posts, stated that more coin collectors should be on this Committee? Well, Kareem’s appointment is a good start. He will be attuned to the wants of coin enthusiasts.

  71. Just Another Dave In Pa says

    I like coins and stamps and odd collectibles (glass, some vintage jewelry, cards, etc) because they’re a niche market. Opening up these niche markets to a broader audience seems doomed to failure. Mass markets focus on the least common denominator and increased mediocrity and profit. I don’t think the new cultural focus will necessarily hurt but I wish the focus was on something else. Making Coins Great Again instead of pandering to racial and cultural demographics.

    I like most Native American designs and get these sets yearly but I don’t feel compelled to get the new Liberty coins for some reason. I think there are much better designs coming from other sources.

    I’m ok with Kareem (Lew Alcindor). He’s been given many titles and awards including global cultural ambassador from Sec of State Clinton. He endorsed Clinton and vocally opposed Trump so he’s now kind of a political hack. Still, he’s had some health problems and may not be around much longer so I think it’s fine. A lot of people look up to sports figures and celebrities for some reason.

    I think the focus on America The Beautiful is the best thing the US Mint has ever done. More of this would be excellent.

    The multi-cultural aspect of the mints new direction is a bit off-putting for me. Most people have been programmed to accept diversity and globalization but I think the downside of all this diversity is increased violence, crime and unrest. Monocultures like Dareks’ Poland or Iceland or Japan, China, Russia, Mongolia, Sweden, India, Korea, etc..etc… seem to have much more cohesive societies compared to countries where cultural and racial fragmentation exists.

    All this diversity and fragmentation makes it a lot easier to divide and conquer. And so here we go with Donald Trump. Maybe he’ll end globalization. This might be the start of something big.

  72. Barry says

    As for the hobby declining I think most are just switching to bullion instead of buying numismatic coins. Besides are people really collecting anything anymore as a hobby ?
    If so it is on a individual basis and not like what it was with baseball cards for example. Coins may be the last major collecting hobby going. Btw, those criticizing the constitution here or in the schools / media doesn’t help the hobby either.

  73. says

    just want to say i really appreciate some of the recent comments here that have been very honest and insightful. it strikes a nice balance with, “CCAC what a bunch of crooked cronies against collectors, Jabbar was probably added just appeal to the simpleminded and to push more PC crap.” and the like.

    today is a somber day for many americans. i would just respond to the commenter that said, “Most people have been programmed to accept diversity and globalization but I think the downside of all this diversity is increased violence, crime and unrest” if you are talking about racial divisions in america, please keep in mind that most black americans are the descendants of slaves, who didn’t choose to come here. it was “violence, crime and unrest” that brought them here. this is similar to native americans, who have literally been fighting terrorism since 1492 (i.e., “violence, crime and unrest” was thrust upon them). i don’t think we have been “programmed” to accept diversity, i think we’ve been programmed to accept “violence, crime and unrest”. it often just comes down to perspective.

    regarding the Abdul-Jabbar selection, someone on the Coin Community Forum mentioned they thought he might have gotten turned onto coins from LA Lakers coach Jerry Buss.
    Apparently Jerry Buss was quite the coin collector.

  74. Louis Golino, Author says

    Thanks, gatortreke. I agree and think all this pc-talk alienates collectors from other demographic groups.

  75. gatortreke says

    @ Louis: at the very minimum, all the pc complaining makes us appear as if we’re just a group of grumpy old men (with apologies to Diana of course) and an unwelcoming group at that.

    I really don’t understand the philosophy that we can’t try anything new or all the new stuff is just poorly conceived and designed. We might as well just go back to the bland Charles Barber designs and be satisfied with them.

  76. cagcrisp says

    “If as I expect the Buffaloes considerably outsell the Eagles in 2017, the Mint could consider limiting the Gold eagle program to the 1-ounce coin.”

    This is where I disagree with Louis.

    Current AGE sales numbers extended at the Current sales price for each AGE proof offering:

    ¼ oz. Gold proof 7,135 x $410.00 = $2,925,350
    1/10 oz. Gold proof 21,619 x $175.00 = $3,783,325
    ½ oz. Gold proof 5,429 x $795.00 = $4,316,055
    1 oz. Gold proof 22,311 x $1,560.00 = $34,805,160
    4 coin Gold proof set 15,934 x $2,890.00 = $46,049,260

    …SO… In Total there has been approximately $91,879,150 for ALL proof AGEs.

    Backing out the Current price of a 1 oz. AGE from the 4 coin set and you have $21,192,220 for the fractional in the 4 coin set.

    Combine that with the Individual AGE proof fractionals and you get a grand total of $32,216,950 for ALL forms of fractionals.

    (Now I understand that this is a simplistic method and you can’t just back out the cost of a 1 oz. Gold proof from the 4 coin set, however, you have to do something to guesstimate the revenue in the fractional in the 4 coin set).

    As I’ve said before, without Gold/Platinum/Silver the Mint would lose money on all the other numismatic offerings. The Mint Needs the profit from the AGE fractionals. There will be cannibalization between fractional Buffs and fractional AGE’s, however, the two combined will be much more profitable than a single fractional would generate…

  77. So Krates says

    I’d like to hear about the extent of Kareem’s collecting. Self proclaimed avid collector? I know folks with two proof Ikes, a Lincoln penny board and some circulated buffalo nickels that would fit that description. I see from one fine dime’s link that the team owner is serious. “Jerry Buss, Ph.D., is the only modern coin collector to concurrently own the two great American coin rarities: the 1913 Liberty nickel and the 1804 silver dollar.”
    Is there anything out there about Kareem and his collection? I know about serious celebrity stackers like Curt Schilling, who put up 3,200 Krugerrands as collateral… and the artist formerly known as Prince who left 670 oz in gold bars behind. Maybe Kareem is a First Spouse collector 😉

  78. So Krates says

    Correction – Curt Shilling’s pledging of his 3,200 coins was actually described in documents as Krugerrands, Maples and Eagles.

  79. Erik H says

    So Krates, I don’t follow celebs. but if their fans read / see that they’re hoarding gold & silver that can only be a good thing to drive home the fact that gold/silver = money.

  80. VA Bob says

    Kareem might be good for coins, I don’t know for sure, as time will tell. I’m still waiting for some midget basketball fans to play in the NBA, you know, to be diverse and bring a new demographic of viewers. Why limit it to just coins? It’s all about being fair. No one has anything against little people, do they?

    The 2017 HR anniversary coin. Its design is all right. I’m just not going for the the Mints new series for an outrageous additional premium coins. Same amount of gold, higher price. BS. I all ready get a Buffalo each year (been in since the beginning, should have left when they change the way they price in 2008), and saw the premium for 24kt gold over the AGE as part of refining (part greed) costs. Now the 225th anni is more than the buff for the same fineness of gold? No thanks.

  81. Erik H says

    Also has to be better than a celebrity shoe collection or over spending $$ getting inked up like Lil Wayne and others.

  82. Mint News Blog says

    @Art — The blogs got turned upside-down for a week by so-called perfect storm of scheduling and technical issues. The week after that, I was scrambling to get even partway caught up. The coming week should be back to normal, thank heavens. My apologies for the irregular schedule!


  83. VA Bob says

    Erik H – Yeah, I suppose you are right. I don’t blame the Mint for throwing the kitchen sink at the problem of getting new buyers, and for some that hang on the every word of their favorite celebrities, maybe it will help. Personally, it does little for me, as I haven’t found a celb I can relate to outside the performance of their profession. I’m sure any single person on this blog could provide a valid/invalid justification for a particular coin, as any famous hobbyist could. Perhaps if Kareem would comment here, and let his thoughts on coin related issues be known, it would help others justify if he represents a group of collectors or not. Until then it’s all speculation.

  84. hawkster says

    So Krates,
    I’m not quite sure as to why you bring up Jerry Buss and his ownership of two very costly U.S. coin rarities. This alone would not necessarily make him a coin expert or one who has the qualifications for a position with the CCAC. Perhaps Mr. Buss has an investment advisor who steered him toward purchasing these coins to round out his portfolio. It seems that Buss has more interest in classic, rare coins than in modern Mint issues, with the possible exception of modern bullion.

  85. hawkster says

    Mr. Buss’s foray into coin collecting is not much different than the way most of us got started: pushing circulated Lincoln cents, Buffalo nickels, Mercury dimes , and Washington quarters into the round, open slots of those blue foldout-type Whitman coin albums.
    His wealth allowed him to eventually invest in expensive, rare coin toys.

  86. Darek says

    Do you still following the Truman sets?
    I am thinking to sell some coins because lack of storage space( 10 Truman sets, 10 5coin ASE sets, 44 sets of enhance Native American etc)

  87. Qui Transtulit Sustinet says

    Fractional Buffalo coins (both numismatic and bullion), legislation for silver buffalo coins, high relief silver medals with date/mint mark, 30-day order windows with immediate payment, discounted pricing and reasonably low household limits, mint to demand for reasonable time frames (3-4 months?), and restrictions on large volume returns.

    Trolling, arguing and politics.

  88. Qui Transtulit Sustinet says

    I would like to see the early consideration of coin and medal designs commemorating the adoption of the 19th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution granting women the right to vote, which was adopted (signed) on August 26, 1920.

    The road to adoption had been long and hard.

    The final steps included passage by the House of Representatives in January of 1918, by the Senate in June of 1919 (both required two-thirds majority votes), and ratification by two-thirds of the States on August 18, 1920.

  89. Qui Transtulit Sustinet says

    Does anyone know if APMEX, Provident, JM Bullion, MCM, or other dealers offer electronic check payment (not a mailed check) as a payment method at prices below the credit card price? If so, where on their site do you find the necessary information? Thanks.

  90. Barry says

    Qui-The first three on your list offer e-check for payment (same price as a paper check), MCM I don’t know about them. Just go through the checkout process and all the payment options show up on the screen.

  91. Louis Golino, Author says

    @VA Bob- I am not aware of the Mint releasing a specific price for the 2017 Lib gold coin, but I believe if it were offered at current gold prices, it would be same as the Buffalo proof, or 2 spouse proofs, plus or minus a few dollars.

  92. cagcrisp says

    The 2015 HR was initially offered at $1,490.00.

    That price was $50 higher than the Buffalo price.

    IF the Mint follows the Same pricing and IF the coin was released in today’s price grid of $1,200-$1,249.99, It would be priced at $1,640.00…

  93. cagcrisp says

    I would not be surprised to see a 1/20 oz. fractional Gold Buffalo.

    Why not?

    Demographics are changing. Less disposable Income. Higher premium, Lower mintage.

    Give the customer what they want…

  94. So Krates says

    I hope we don’t go down the mini coin road. If you can’t afford $135 for a tenth then just save up until you can.

  95. Dustyroads says

    I’m not a fan of the teeny tiny coins, but they have been popular elsewhere. They do appeal to someone.

  96. hawkster says

    Why would anyone possibly want or need a 1/20 oz. fractional Buffalo? It would be so tiny that even those among us with good vision would probably require a magnifying glass or loupe to see the coin’s details.

  97. Scott says

    @ Cag, remember the 2017 HR coin is a proof, unlike 2015 HR, so I’ll bet money it’s higher than the $50 spread over the buffalo.

  98. cagcrisp says

    @Scott, I would Not be surprised if it was $100 higher.

    Why? Because they can.

    They SO the Winged Head Liberty at $30 higher. Eventually they will SO the SLQ at $50 higher and Eventually SO the WLH at $70 higher.

    Why not raise it $100? Even if they leave it on the website for two years, they won’t sell 100,000 and another $100 will not be a deterrent.

    If you’ve got the money for a $1,600 coin, you’ve got the money for a $1,700 coin…

  99. cagcrisp says

    Regarding the size of a 1/20 oz. Gold coin, the US Mint has already minted 14,000,000+ Gold Dollars between 1849-1889.

    These Gold Dollars had .0483 oz. of Gold.

    …SO…We have a history of minting some Small Gold coins (and those were for circulation)…

  100. Scott says

    @ Cag, when I have the money for a $1600 coin, I’ll be buying an MS-63 pre-1933 double eagle, not the 2017 gold anniversary coin. You are right, there are some fools that will pay $1700, or more. Eventually those overpriced coins will give the hobby a bad reputation. I think we’re closer to that day than most collectors realize.

  101. VA Bob says

    Louis – I’m assuming the 2017 will be as high on the pricing grid as the 2015 HR was (as cagcrisp pointed out) when that coin was believe by many to be a one off . Pure money grab on the part of the Mint IMO. I’ve had enough of it, so I’ll leave it to folks with deeper pockets that are willing to pay more for an ounce of gold. Not interested in collecting another expensive series anyway.

  102. KCSO says

    With respect to the “17 High Relief pricing and having gone through this rodeo a few times over, I don’t see how the mint will be able to price it in line with the “15 High Relief with only a $440 premium.

    The ’17 HR offers 1), Proof finish, 2) Raised Edge letter, and 3) a pretty little black box to boot.., over the ’15 HR coin.

    The Proof Buffalo maintains a $390 premium over spot.

    The ’15 High Relief had a $440 premium

    One could reason that the premium on the ’17 High Relief may be in the neighborhood of $465 to $500.

    Saw some humorous comments on Facebook I believe, some new folks to the mint page commented that “Oh, I’m in on this $100 bucks!” – it was quickly explained to them that that was just the Face Value of the coin.., followed by a little price shell shock, too funny.

    The mint may see a $490 premium over spot of $1,200 as only a 41% premium, which is considerably lower than most of their other offerings, when you stop and really think about it.

  103. says

    Cag, if you had to throw down on where it’ll end up within the premium range over spot, any thoughts?

    Would be nice if the mint offered another more affordable gold option for the 225th Anniversary, thereby not alienating most of the core base with a high dollar gold offering, Time Will Tell.

  104. cagcrisp says

    @KCSO, “Cag, if you had to throw down on where it’ll end up within the premium range over spot, any thoughts?”

    My Guesstimate that the Mint will take on an Additional $50 above the 2015 HR …

    …SO…at a Gold grid price of $1,200-$1,249.99, My Guesstimate would be $1, 690.00…

    …OR…a Gold spot price premium of $490.00 or in this case 41% over spot…

    …How does a 41% spot price compare to the centennials at Launch?

    Winged Head Liberty SO at 71%
    SLQ Launched at 49%
    WLH Launched at 44%

    IF I was the Mint Director I would go with $1,740.00, however, I would also raise ALL Gold pricing…

  105. bobo says

    Are there any rules for picking nominal values of coins or does the mint just pick valuations out of a hat? How can the 2016 walking liberty gold centennial, with half an ounce of gold, say ‘Half Dollar’ on it, whereas a one ounce American Eagle gold says ‘fifty dollars’ and the upcoming 2017 American liberty gold coin also has one ounce of gold, but says ‘One hundred dollars,’ and the NPS gold coin with a quarter ounce says $5, whereas the 2016 Standing liberty quarter, also a quarter ounce says ‘quarter dollar’? Isn’t this absurd? Why put any values on the coins at all if those values are basically meaningless?

  106. achmed says

    You must see the different values in historical context. I personally like to have coins with a value on them (because for me these are coins, contrary to medals). .
    With us-coins in gold and a value on them I know they are coins. And I do not care of the value on them. Nobody would spend a gold coin for the value on it. Except for france may be: They have gold coins with values of up to 1000 Euros on them. And you can buy them for a bit more than the value from the But nobody accepts these coins when you want to pay with them in France. So I prefer us-coins. And some of them are really beautiful: the buffalo gold, eagle gold, liberty 100 dollars gold, UHR 2009 , WLH and many many more.

  107. says

    @So Krates – my thoughts exactly, thanks for being another rational mind in the darkness here. And it’s interesting that anyone who wants to discuss anything of depth beyond how much money the US Mint is making off its customers or how foolish it is to buy this or that issue, is labeled a “political operative”.

    @bobo –
    I can appreciate your confusion / concern, it does at times appear inconsistent. With the 2016 centennial issues, the value was based on the classic coin. So the WLH say “Half Dollar” because from 1916 to 1947, those were the designs on our half dollars. It is the same for the mercury dime (“ten cents”) and the standing liberty quarter dollar. For the commemorative $5 gold issues, these coins are of the same specifications as classic half eagle coins, which were worth $5. For the $100 Liberty gold, no idea. I believe indicating the value on a coin is actually part of the definition of “a coin”, otherwise I think you’re entering the territory of medals.

  108. So Krates says

    1/4 oz Gold SLQ = Quarter Dollar

    5 oz Silver ATB = Quarter Dollar


    1/4 oz Gold SLQ = 5 oz Silver ATB


    The face value structure also breaks down with the AGEs. If kept in proportion, the 1/4 oz should have a $12.50 face value but instead it’s stamped ten dollars….who knows why ??

  109. Mintman says

    Back to COIN TOPICS………..if I want to read political commentary I can read 100’s of other blogs

  110. Barry says

    Maybe with the new administration the mint will produce enough ASE’s without rationing ( or “on allocation” as they describe it ) during periods of high demand. What’s preventing the SF mint from helping out West Point as they did some years ago. ? Suppression of demand should not be a function of the mint.

  111. fmtransmitter says

    anyone get notified by discover they are sending you a new card as a precaution because one of the merchants we use data was compromised? I think it was the mint…

  112. Asherspapa says

    Unwilling to sort through all the comments since the beginning of the year, I’m wondering if anyone else has commented on the change in Mint’s Product Schedule to a monthly update…judging by the February update, somewhere about 10-14 days before the month begins. I like to see what’s ahead, even if the release date is TBD or just a month. Let’s me plan ahead a bit and set an alarm for any upcoming potentially hot items. Does the Mint really not know what they’re producing this year? The change strikes me as another stupid decision by someone who doesn’t care about collectors.

  113. Erik H says

    FM, no. I do have Discover but I only use AMEX for mint purchases so you may be on to something.

  114. IPS_STUFF says


    I use Discover card for all my transactions to my PO box and Amex & Visa to home

    I have not had any notifications from any of these card companies and I have mad purchases with both in December and January.

  115. Just Another Dave In Pa says

    I’m just glad Trump nixed Obamas’ TPP deal. We lost a lot of jobs in the last 8 years. This article is from WaPo (not Brietbart) and sheds a bit of light on Obama and free trade. I like that Trump is trying to bring jobs back by re-negotiating NAFTA and other trade deals. He’s not pushing the globalization agenda put in place by the Clintons.

    I like that Trump isn’t beholden to the usual party interests. I even got a few of the Trump Liberty Dollars that were sanctioned by Bernard von NotHaus. Although I’m not a Libertarian I think these are nice collectibles. I would’ve voted for Bernie Sanders but Clinton and the DNC cheated and screwed Bernie so they would never get my vote. I think that’s why Trump won. I voted against Clinton after her disgraceful treatment of Bernie. A lot of Bernie or Bust people went for Trump over a corrupt Clinton.

    Politics plays a large part in monetary policy. I was reading about the Coin Act of 1873 which demonetized silver and took us from Hamiltons’ bimetallism (gold and silver) to the de facto gold standard. It also gave us those Trade Dollars which are pretty nice.

    I’m not sure where I would have stood on those issues. Some say (Milton Friedman, et al), in retrospect, that it was a mistake. It was a big issue in the 1896 election between William Jennings Bryan and William McKinley. It’s some fascinating history and purportedly a big theme of Frank Baum’s Wizard Of Oz. The yellow brick road was gold and the silver slippers (later changed to ruby slippers in the 1939 movie) represented the silverites.

    Of course, McKinley and the gold standard won and the 20th century and Modernity followed. We always believe that we live in interesting times but history just repeats itself over and over.

  116. cagcrisp says

    How does First day sales for Lions Club Silver compare?

    First day sales Lion Club Silver:

    Proof 19,244
    Uncirculated 5,926

    2016 First Day Mark Twain:

    Proof ~23,900
    Uncirculated ~ 9,600

    2015 First Day US Marshal:

    Proof 24,057
    Uncirculated 10,200

    …SO…Lower Mintage, Higher Price…

  117. Mint News Blog says

    @cagcrisp — I’m just about to put up a post of the Lions Club sales on Coin Update, and the Mint issued a slight correction to their numbers. Strictly speaking, those aren’t first-day sales; they’re cumulative sales, from the first day through January 22. I don’t know whether that affects your comment at all, but I thought you’d like to have the details.

  118. Just Another Dave In Pa says

    I always thought those social clubs were a vestige of the 1950s so I wouldn’t expect large sales. It’s surprising they sold as many as they did.

    There are a lot of those clubs still around, though, I guess.

  119. Erik H says

    Diana, I was just going to post the “Strange Inheritance” story. Can’t believe you beat me to it.

    I’ll be watching.

  120. Erik H says

    By the way, there are two episodes one at 9P and one at 9:30P. Do you know for sure which episode is about the cent? The tease just said to watch at nine (maybe the second episode is a re-run from earlier in the season).

  121. says

    cagcrisp says
    JANUARY 23, 2017 AT 6:52 PM

    How does First day sales for Lions Club Silver compare?

    First day sales Lion Club Silver:

    Proof 19,244
    Uncirculated 5,926


    Flippers – buy in now, the next new Low! … well until BT

    I can see all the hype and hot air blowing 11 months from now – Mark Your Calendars, & get those First Strike Win Fall Labels today!

    All your peers are lining up for fleabay poll positions; Don’t be late!

  122. VA Bob says

    The Lions Club coin would have been nicer if it didn’t have Dave Thomas of Wendy’s on the Obverse. Pass for me.

  123. Barry says

    Does anyone here collect the Ike silver / clad coins ? I have the proof versions in PF69 and the BU’ in MS65 or better. One of the BU’s is starting to tone a very light golden yellow on the whole coin. Very interesting to see.

  124. says

    Sounds like that Ike is starting to develop some nice toning. What are you storing it in?

    “Strange Inheritence” was a bit dumbed down… reiterating half the show after every commercial break, really?! On substance, they really seemed to gloss over how the court sided with the US Mint even after the former mint director’s deposition refuted the claim that Harry Lawrence fabricated the coin himself (“Harry was a real straight shooter”). Biggest question seems to be why the US Mint had to have the coin back, especially with established precedent. for example, not fussing over similar extreme rarity issues, like the 1913 nickels.

  125. J. Miller says

    2021 will be the 50th anniversary of the Eisenhower dollar. What would it cost at today’s spot if there was a dual-dated 1971-2021 (REVERSE PROOF) 24 k with the exact circumference of the original Ike WITH THE US MINT PREMIUM? Could there be a sacrifice of thickness to make it an even 2 or 3 oz?
    I know I would buy one!! 🙂

  126. DBR says

    @ Barry re collecting Ike dollars:

    I have thought about collecting the Ike Dollars for a couple of years. I think it’s a sleeper series of sorts because of its short duration and relatively low mintages on some years. It’s very very affordable to collect in high grades. I think Ike is well-regarded by most Americans still. He’s been out of office for over 50 years now so expect some good history to be written about his era soon. His popularity may help the collectibility of the series which bears his name.

    I do watch coin shows on TV (not HSN….but I love the snarky comments that readers here make about HSN), namely Coin Vault and Rick Tomaska’s show. Periodically these shows will offer and present on the Ike series. They offer good information about the coins and its run.

    I’m very interested in the series because of the years it ran and how the Ike dollars’ chances of being a good Coin increase by freeing them of the toxic packaging in which they were issued. It’s a large coin with some fun varieties and a modern design.

    The Ike series is one that I would only collect “slabbed” and graded. (And that isn’t my preference because I usually like OGP.).

    I could see myself purchasing an entire Ike set from a dealer. Like Barry, I would only want PF69 and MS65+.

  127. So Krates says

    I like Ikes. My first coin purchase was a Brown Box Eisenhower Proof. I just thought that thing was the greatest when I was a kid. Several decades later and it’s still only worth ten bucks. Last year I bought a single lot of about fifty to seventy “Blue” Ikes and submitted the ones I thought would grade MS67 or better. Got back a couple of 66s,, a couple 67s, and three MS68s. These three brought enough added value to balance out the losses in fees on the other coins (Truman sets and proof ASEs) which came back mostly 69s. I kept two of the MS68s which I often look at. One has a slight yellow/gold tinge but the other is as minted and just looks great in the PCGS holder. This slightly older, large diameter silver coin with clean fields, nearly free of marks, always gives me a bit of inner satisfaction when I view it.

  128. merryxmasmrscrooge says

    TPP nixed! Yes let’s continue making these coins in the USA. Keep the good jobs here.

  129. Barry says

    I appreciate all the responses, I always liked the Ike dollar when I was younger and have some of the clad circulated coins. I heard about the OGP causing problems and decided
    to purchase only slabbed coins.
    @ofd. The Ike that is toning is in a PCGS slab which is what may be the issue as my storage location has a stable environment. I like how the coin is toning but will not buy any more PCGS slabbed coins in the future as posters here also have had problems with them.

  130. data dave says

    Has anyone else read Rogoff’s “Case against Cash”? Scary book from my perspective. He totally blows by any privacy concerns and ignores the possibility that people will turn to other means (bitcoin, gold) if they are forced to use eDollars for everything. I wonder what the founding fathers would think about his ideas?

  131. says

    Went by the WBG shop Sat. morning and there were goodies galore, the guy said there’s alot of sellers but few buyers(hmm, I wonder why). Picked up 5 proof Kennedy halves, 2 rolls of decent silver Roosies and a ’37 CB, I also snagged a ’59-d Franklin when I stopped off at the bank to see if they had the new P cents, they didn’t, they didn’t have the new Sequoyah dollars either.

    1837 Capped Bust

  132. Mint News Blog says

    Gents, in addition to the points raised here, I’m starting to get separate complaints about the tone of the comments. I’d like to ask everyone to refrain from political discussion except where the subject of a particular policy is relevant to the numismatic discussion. (Obviously, it’ll be helpful if I hurry it up with a fresh blog post to provide a clean slate for discussion!)

  133. cagcrisp says

    Sales of the Lions Club Silver proof and uncirculated coin for the first reporting period were Dismal. Some have guessed that sales would be robust because the Lions on the reverse would Save the coin. IF that happens, it is going to have to do something recent commemoratives coins have Not done…

    … Come From Behind.

    Here is how the opening Week sales of the Lions club compares to the past two years Opening January weekly sales of Silver commemoratives AND the Last Known Sales (LKS) numbers for each offering that we currently have. Keep in mind when comparing:

    1. The Lions club only has a Silver proof and Silver uncirculated
    2. The Mark Twain had a Silver proof, Silver uncirculated, Gold proof and Gold uncirculated
    3. The US Marshal had a Silver proof, Silver uncirculated, Gold proof, Gold uncirculated, clad proof, clad uncirculated and a 3 coin set

    2017 Lions club sales first week:
    Silver Proof 23,349
    Silver Uncirculated 7,107

    2016 Mark Twain sales first week; LKS:
    Silver Proof 37,198; LKS 78,540
    Silver Uncirculated 14,576; LKS 26,285

    2015 US Marshal Sales first week; LKS:
    Silver Proof 37,530; LKS 109,345
    Silver Uncirculated 18,835; LKS 38,149

    …SO…Averaging the past two January Silver offerings:

    2017 Lions Club Silver proof is Down 37.5%
    2017 Lions Club Silver uncirculated is Down 57.5%

    Considering no Meaningful competition for the USD for US Mint offerings…

    …Dismal, Dismal, Dismal…

  134. says

    Getting closer to something official –

    Buffalo Fractional Gold

    “In other Mint news, CoinWeek has confirmed that the United States Mint is looking into the possibility of bringing back fractional denominations of the American Gold Buffalo bullion coin. Beginning in 2006, the program gave collectors and investors the first .9999 fine 24-karat gold coins produced by the U.S. Mint. Only one-ounce, $50 face value coins (struck in Philadelphia and West Point) were available during the first two years. In 2008, the Mint produced half-ounce ($25), quarter-ounce ($10) and tenth-ounce ($5) denominations as well–but these proved to be the first and last fractional Gold Buffalos ever made.

    Now, with the end of the Great Recession, the culmination of the First Spouse $10 gold series in 2016 and ever-increasing buyer interest in gold and gold bullion, CoinWeek has confirmed with Michael White of the Mint’s Office of Corporate Communications that the U.S. Mint is considering reviving the fractional weights but no other information is forthcoming.”

    Certainly hope they’re released in Proof & Burnished, as well as Bullion, will take a lot of pressure off the ’08’s.

  135. says

    Cag, we typically see a Proof to UNC ratio of 3 to 1, even for first day Comm sales, didn’t happen this time though did by weekend close out.

    Just speculation for fun, if the Proof manages to sell 60,000, that would imply a simple range of 15,000 to 20,000 for the UNC.., & BT hasn’t show up yet.

    Nor the 4-coin Silver Liberty Medal set with different Mint Marks and finishes, it’s going to be a challenging year for the Comms when the medal set approaches.

  136. Scott says

    Fractional Buffalo Gold in Proof or Burnished format would get my attention. Fractional Platinum Eagles would also be nice.

  137. cagcrisp says

    16CF 2016 NATIONAL PARK SERVICE CLAD UNC 21,016 (14)
    16CG 2016 NATIONAL PARK SERVICE 3-COIN SET 14,589 (2)

    16CH 2016 MARK TWAIN GOLD PROOF 13,266 (3)
    16CJ 2016 MARK TWAIN GOLD UNC 5,693 (4)
    16CK 2016 MARK TWAIN SILVER PROOF 78,536 (4)
    16CL 2016 MARK TWAIN SILVER UNC 26,284 (1)

  138. cagcrisp says

    16EA 2016 AM EAGLE SILVER PROOF 1 OZ 530,887 + 1,366

    16EB 2016 AM EAGLE GOLD PROOF 1 OZ 22,902 +591
    16EC 2016 AM EAGLE GOLD PROOF 1/2 OZ 5,463 + 34
    16ED 2016 AM EAGLE GOLD PROOF 1/4 OZ 7,135 –
    16EF 2016 AM EAGLE GOLD PROOF 4-COIN SET 16,231 +297

    16EG 2016 AM EAGLE SILVER UNC 1 OZ 167,753 (418)

  139. cagcrisp says

    16AL 2016 ATB SILVER UNC 5 OZ – HARP FRY 18,898 + 4
    16AN 2016 ATB SILVER UNC 5 OZ – FT MLTR 15,494 + 363

  140. cagcrisp says

    16XA 2016 WALKING LIBERTY 24K GOLD .5OZ 60,810 + 399
    16XB 2016 MERCURY DIME 24K GOLD .1OZ 124,884 (7)
    16XC 2016 STANDING LIBERTY 24K GOLD .25OZ 87,443 + 272

  141. cagcrisp says

    16RA 2016 AMERICAN $1 COIN & CURRENCY SET 46,537 +107
    16RB 2016 ANNUAL $1 UNC SET 15,115 +351

  142. cagcrisp says

    16SA 2016 FS GOLD PROOF 1/2 OZ – NIXON 2,465 + 3
    16SB 2016 FS GOLD UNC 1/2 OZ – NIXON 1,550 +2
    16SC 2016 FS GOLD PROOF 1/2 OZ – FORD 2,243 + 11
    16SD 2016 FS GOLD UNC 1/2 OZ – FORD 1,507 (10)
    16SE 2016 FS GOLD PROOF 1/2 OZ – REAGAN 3,327 + 13
    16SF 2016 FS GOLD UNC 1/2 OZ – REAGAN 1,784 + 8

    JQ1 2015 FS GOLD PROOF 1/2 OZ – TRUMAN 2,599 + 1
    JQ2 2015 FS GOLD UNC 1/2 OZ – TRUMAN 1,825 +9
    JQ4 2015 FS GOLD UNC 1/2 OZ – EISENHWR 1,923 + 2
    JQ6 2015 FS GOLD UNC 1/2 OZ – KENNEDY 6,503 +21
    JQ7 2015 FS GOLD PROOF 1/2 OZ – JOHNSON 2,621 + 4
    JQ8 2015 FS GOLD UNC 1/2 OZ – JOHNSON 1,739 +5

  143. Tinto says

    Indeed sweet for the $5 NPS UNC … this is probably my last gold commemorative purchase so it is a nice way to end it …. I was gonna get all the Moon Landing coins but since the Mint decided to have only one design … I’ll probably just get the dollar sized coin …

  144. says

    I’m with you Tinto. With gold likely going up in 2017, and having no interest in the Boys Town design, I’ll probably not be making any gold purchases at all this year (though I’m not sure I’m ready for never say never on any future $5 commems). I think the 2016 Mark Twain and NPS designs are very high quality and timeless designs that could likely have wide appeal and long-term interest with those that enjoy the history and commemorative heritage of this series, which the forthcoming Boys Town $5 commem design seems to be lacking. So I won’t be surprised at all if the Boys Town comes in at an even lower final mintage (i.e., total sales).

  145. Darek says

    one fine dime,
    Keep your fingers crossed, and maybe in 2018 the US Mint will issue the gold coin with Chimpanzee on it. The first monkey went into space in 1948, so next year will be 70 anniversary of this event.
    I would be a buyer of such coin, how about you?

  146. cagcrisp says

    On the Record…

    1. Knowing the sales numbers for Silver Lions Club
    2. Seeing the continued sales numbers for the SLQ and the WHL
    3. Knowing there is a Possibility we get Fractional Buffs in later part of 2017
    4. Knowing that we Should get a Palladium coin in 2017
    5. Knowing that the Mint could do a 4 mint mark Silver medal in 2017

    I…Knowing that there is a Possibility of Fractional Buffs, could be a game changer for the 2017 HR Liberty.

    I’m not looking for a Political debate. What I am saying is that there is a LOT of interest from BUYERS of Gold that will be interested in Fractional Buffs and from My Point of View it was a Tactical error on part of the Mint to list a Mintage of 100,000 for the 2017 HR and another tactical error on part of the Mint to Mention the fact that there is a Possibility of Fractional Buffs.

    To even List 100,000 Mintage for the 2017 HR is ridiculous. Launch Day is Critical for any successful Launch. Other than those Chasing Labels ,Why oh Why would you have to purchase Launch Day a coin that can’t sell 100,000 coins in Two years? What’s the emphasis? If at Launch Gold is in a Tremendous Upswing like what happened to the 2009 UHR.? Yep I can see If that happens there is a Possibility. How often has that happened? Well it hasn’t happened to that extent since the 2009 UHR.

    I just don’t see the Mint doing the things it does. The Mint unveiled the 2017 HR I thought THEN that the actual coin was SO much better than the drawings and that sales would be better than I originally thought .THEN the 100,000 mintage was announced and NOW with the Possibility of Fractional Buffs and 100,000 mintage for the 2017 HR is just a Non Starter for me.

    I just don’t see the Mint doing the things it does…

  147. Tinto says

    one fine dime

    Yeah it’s possible that Boys Town $5 unc will be even lower but I’ve mostly given up buying from the Mint, the only coin I will regularly buy going forward is the NA $1 C&C set and whatever coin that will help me make up a complete type set of EU and RP (no gold/platinum/palladium). If the Mint does come out with a complete EU or RP set in the future, all the better for me … but not holding my breath

  148. Louis Golino, Author says

    There is nothing in Coin Week’s story that was not in my earlier article, and the Mint gave me the same confirmation before Coin Week’s story appeared. They merely confirmed what is in the e-mail, which I received over the weekend from one of the forum participants. All we know if they may do them in proof. We knew that when someone posted here the e-mail from Jeppson. Nothing has changed, and nothing has been added.

  149. joe#2 says

    I never heard of a Mint that doesn’t come out with SOMETHING to excite people. Unheard of. Even the Anniversary of the gold buffalo, Turned out to be nothing.
    We need new leadership there, But, I guess no one cares.

  150. buddy says

    I assume you’ll be writing a piece for publication about the new $5 commem. Parks unc?

  151. Sherril Matney says

    Hi!This is a off topic question…………………..I got a 1934 $10.00 bill in my change at the bank today,so should I put it away or use it??It is in medium condition.

  152. Dustyroads says

    I like that year because it was the year my mother was born. I would count myself as fortunate if I were to come across one that way. They vary in value some, so here are some recently sold listings from ebay to give you an idea of what you have, monetarily speaking.

  153. earthling says

    1995-W (BU) Special Olympics Silver Dollar 89,301

    1995-P (Proof) Special Olympics Silver Dollar 351,764

    The Eunice Shriver Special Olympics Coin hasn’t shaken the Coin Universe in any design competition , but its sales were healthy compared to recent sales by US Mint items. What was different between then and now?

  154. bobo says

    Some things worth commemorating in the coming years:
    2018 centennial end of WW1
    2019 centennial women getting the vote/19th amendment
    2021 Peace dollar centennial (would love to see a large gold version)

  155. cagcrisp says

    From my Above comment:

    “I just don’t see the Mint doing the things it does…”

    Maybe this explains some things.

    The 5 point email was sent out from the Mint on January 19th .

    Rhett Jeppson resigned January 20th. ..

  156. Dustyroads says

    earthling, In addition to them being cheaper in those days, I believe the commemoratives were in a place of prominence.

  157. Numismatrix says

    “I got a 1934 $10.00 bill in my change” – Sherril Matney

    I would definitely keep it.

    These links may be of interest:

    U.S. Currency Price Guide

    Cool Currency Numbers

    MNB : “complaints about the tone of the comments”
    The issue to be cautious about is the possibility of driving away
    enthusiastic and well intentioned collectors or novices who are
    seeking a forum purely to discuss their coins and collections, and
    US Mint offerings. The tone of comments about the 2017HR are
    a case in point.

  158. Tom says

    Earthling, Your question raises alot of questions and many possible answers.
    In short I think alot of past collectors who saw a value in the mints offerings,
    (for many reasons) have sadly died away.
    Also the younger generation (are so busy with their Iphones and games) too appreciate
    that it was George Washington that created the US Mint to fill the countries monetary needs,
    and not what they’ve been fed.

  159. Tom says

    It is amazing that only around 21000 NPS halfs dollars were sold.
    I’m sure just a few years ago many a Grandpa would have gotten these
    to give as gifts to their grandkids.

  160. Louis Golino, Author says

    CC is right. It is in the Coin World article. Unlike the CoinWeek piece, it actually has something new. Jeppson is gone. Guess Jared Kushner’s portfolio will be growing. Or maybe Ivana is taking over the mint.

  161. cagcrisp says

    @Tom , “short I think alot of past collectors who saw a value in the mints offerings,
    (for many reasons) have sadly died away.”

    Which happened first: ? collectors sadly died away? Or collectors Not seeing value in mints offerings?

    The Mint has a tremendous opportunity to give customers value and yet they fail time after time.

    IF there is No viable secondary market, eventually there will be No viable primarily market …

  162. joe#2 says

    Let’s hope the new guy on the block is going to make things happen. Thanks for the responses folks.

  163. Louis Golino, Author says

    I agree with CC. Even coins like the 2007-W burnished AGE $25 that was worth two grand years ago is basically bullion now. In fact. APMEX sold a bunch over the holidays for just a few dollars over bullion half eagles. Glad I sold one a few years ago for a lot more..

  164. bobo says

    One fine dime, no I did not know there would be a WW1 centennial, but am glad to hear it. Yes, the others are just a wish list.

    Here is another:
    2018 fifty years since the assassinations of two brave men, Martin Luther King, Jr., and Robert F. Kennedy

  165. says


    while I’m half a decade shy of 50 myself, hard to believe it has been that long since the untimely deaths of those two great men. we’ve had an RFK coin, and I think the 2014 civil rights coin is as close we’ll come to honoring MLK (on a coin; of course there was a bronze medal for MLK and his wife).

  166. earthling says

    I wouldn’t mind getting a Jackie Robinson $5 Gold now – both Proof and BU. There’t certainly no rush to get one though. One day, the time will come.

    Jackie Robinson was one fine Baseball Player. One day, hopefully , I’ll get both Coins and a Rookie Card. Have ‘t checked Card values, hope I can afford a decent one. I got a 1955 Topps Roberto Clemente Rookie Card in about VG back in 1976 for a Dime . I know a Jackie Robinson will go for a much bigger price.

  167. Tom says

    Hey Cagcrisp and fellow boggers,
    I think the mint has had some real great stuff recently such as the Buffs and baseball etc.
    Really nice. Better than some liberty or eagle designs that last 30yrs+ … And ofcoarse No,
    I would not want to see the mint making too many products like the Perth and others
    that seem to make a coin for almost everything. I think the variations of finishes and
    reverse proof etc. shows the mint is trying to be innovative. As to the subject of design
    I don’t totally know what to say. I would have said ‘some’ designs appeal to a more
    limited number of people… but the Nps coins should have had broad enough interest?
    Sure, I did by one of the $5 Nps ms coins hoping it would come in under Jackie. Its the
    only big coin I bought all year. I did not by the $1 because I did not like the design.
    I did buy a few halfs because of its great design.
    I think also, some are tired of chasing lower mintages , especially in the
    overwhelmingly expensive and mostly ugly first spouse coins,
    (which should have just been medals), that they just gave up.
    I usually buy a coin because I think the design is cool and has a historic connection.
    I really thought the SF $5 ms coin was very cool and its mintage is still low enough
    that if there is a renewed broader interest in the mint it could still do well.
    The Lions Club coin should almost be a medal. I need to stop but maybe
    selling fewer items might be better. And lowering the prices might also be
    good. I mean silver at like $17 an ounce and they want almost $60 for
    a $1 commem.

  168. KML in KY says

    Glad to see good coin discussion on MNB again. Thanks cagcrisp for the updates. I bought some of the Lions Club coins. While I don’t think Lions Club is the greatest subject for a commem I like the lions on the reverse. Unfortunately the quality was very poor and I’m returning most of them. I wonder how many others will do the same. I asked the Mint for replacements if they have coins without contact marks. We’ll see what happens. I have returned more coins due to quality issues in the past couple of years than all the years before. I don’t if I’m getting more picky or if quality control at the Mint is declining or both.

    I buy some of all the commems and have for many years. I like the NPS coins and have quite a few of them.

  169. cagcrisp says

    Republicans are in control. I’ve always said that if/when Republicans are in charge that the Kennedy half will be discontinued and Ronald Reagan (a good likeness) will be put on the half.

    I still see that happening.

    Why not?

    1.Sales for the last year of the Kennedy half would spike.
    2. Complete sets of Kennedys could be started because we would finally put the Kennedy in the past category.
    3. A Reagan half coin sales would spike and at the very least be as popular as the current series of Kennedy.

    Why not?…

  170. cagcrisp says

    Departing shot…

    The email sent out January 19th from the Mint was a departing shot.

    Should never have been sent out. The fractional Buffs were never mentioned in the Numismatic meeting in October.

    The Mint has changed to a Monthly product schedule for a Specific Reason and now out of the blue a Fractional Buff is put out there one day before resignation.

    A departing shot and something that Should have never been put out there.

    Now you can plan accordingly and the Mint don’t want you to plan accordingly…

  171. cagcrisp says

    Gold AM Fix was $1,203.50

    There will be NO price adjustment for Gold Today (unless the new administration decides to change things)…

  172. says

    Republicans are in control. I’ve always said that if/when Republicans are in charge that the Kennedy half will be discontinued and Ronald Reagan (a good likeness) will be put on the half.

    Do you prefer honoring Reagan or Kennedy on the half? Or is your preference for a change only based on how it will effect premiums on coins…assuming you do prefer a change?

  173. cagcrisp says

    The Dow just Opened over 20K…

    …And Gold just broke $1,200 going Down…

    Risk on trade vs. Risk off trade…

  174. achmed says

    Reagan on a coin? I stopped buying presidential dollars 2015! The mint could produce a new half dollar with liberty on it. Or with a spirit of freedom on it. Or a spirit of brotherhood. Ou peut-etre quelquechose comme Egalite. That would be interesting.

  175. HarryB says

    @cag and others on circulating coinage changes. I seem to recall a lobbying effort to put Reagan on the dime, went no where. I suspect both the dime and half will be changed at some point, primarily to interest a new generation of collectors. I have often wondered if the clad halfs from the commerative coin programs should be introduced into circulation in an attempt to interest new collectors. I became interested in coin collecting as a child when I noticed the many designs of nickels, dimes and quarters circulating in the mid to late 50s, Barber, Buffalos, Mercury, Standing Liberty, and even A few Barber halves. Yes, a number of Indian cents could be encountered.

  176. Throckmorton says

    If the Mint wants to excite this collector start striking products such as the flowing hair silver dollar with a 2017 date. Just saying…………..

  177. Sith says

    @one fine dime – Unless they are restoring the silver content to the half I could careless, and unlike 1964 the half no longer circulates, so IMHO nobody outside of those that collect coins would notice a change. For example, not to sound bad, but the 2017-P Cent made a big stir, but only in the coin collecting community. It did have a few articles in the “mainstream” press, but those were only in locations that the US Treasury had a mint.

  178. says

    Royal Australian mint reportedly scammed for a million dollars by an employee last year

    The Australian Financial Review is reporting that last year the Royal Australian Mint was scammed by an employee for over a million dollars.

    Not the usual smuggling of gold out like that experienced by the Japan Mint , this involved nothing more complicated than transferring money out using the online banking portal. Happening last May, the employee in question made four payments totalling $1.095m and to date, less than 20% has been recovered.

    For those thinking that $1m is a drop in the ocean to a national mint, it isn’t. In 2015, the mint made a pre-tax profit of around a million dollars, so essentially this person took every cent the mint earned in the preceding year.

    The Australian Federal Police have been informed and an investigation is currently ongoing. The employee is no longer with the mint so they clearly know who did it but even so, $915,000 is still missing.

  179. KML in KY says

    I’ll be buying. Don’t tell anybody but with this design “animal crackers” could end up being the low mintage key ATB.

    I’m curious to see what the actual coin looks like. The pictures sure do look awful.

  180. gatortreke says

    The JM Bullion Effigy Mounds photos show a D mint mark. Is this a mistake or something new?

  181. Old Big Bird says

    Unless I have calculated wrong the Roosevelt ATB “S” quarters has gone higher than the two prior “S” quarters As of 01/22/17 US Mint Sales Figures.

    Cumberland 982,860
    Harpers Ferry 981,140
    Roosevelt 989,060 <<<
    Fort Moultrie 872,860

  182. KEITHSTER says

    Thanks KCSO I was starting to wonder what was taking so long as they have been putting up the SO L a lot faster theses days? My two #3&#2 on the countdown came yesterday along with a pride of lions which were all ordered and shipped on the same days. Any one here get the last Harpers Ferry I did post there was one left ? Well Good Luck All”>”>”>”>”>”>”>”>”>”>

  183. So Krates says

    “Bullion Pucks do not have Mint Marks –”

    And cents don’t have P mintmarks…

    until they do

  184. gatortreke says

    @ So Krates:

    And cents don’t have P mintmarks…until they do

    Exactly my question. So, is it a change in procedure for this year re: the bullion pucks or did JM Bullion put the wrong obverse design on their website?

  185. Einbahnstrasse says

    @ HarryB – “I seem to recall a lobbying effort to put Reagan on the dime, went no where.”

    That was largely because Nancy Reagan opposed it. Now that she’s no longer with us, it might be more likely to happen, in some form or other.

  186. KCSO says

    – the American Eagle Silver One Ounce Uncirculated Coin Enrollment HAS NO “enroll by” date.., so it probably won’t in late-March,

    Believe it always gets released later anyway.

    But they say the price is $44.95, though it hasn’t been publicized in the FR as of yet for either ASE.

  187. KCSO says

    Cag – I would have to agree that you were right –

    If the 2016 Proof ASE with edge lettering was $53.95.., and then plain vanilla Proof ASE’s in 2017 cost $53.95, then would you agree that the price went up?

    Need a ruling here…, how much were the 2015 Proof ASE’s? $48.95, I think?

    Ag certainly DID NOT go up.., at least not in my holdings. Sigh….

  188. cagcrisp says

    @KCSO, It’s a price Increase as far as I’m concerned. And yes the 2015 proof ASE was $48.95…

  189. So Krates says

    @ gatortreke – yeah it’s a strange image there on the Gainesville site. If it wasn’t for the visible edge lettering I would have guessed they just used a Denver quarter but…?

  190. KCSO says

    Interesting, wasn’t sure if a force out was required or not, though a new Acting Duty Director has been appointed,

    Dollars to donuts we have a new Appointed Director in short order.,

    Who would make a good Director of the Mint?

    “According to Michael White at the Office of Corporate Communications for the U.S. Mint, Rhett Jeppson has resigned as Principal Deputy Director of the Mint. His resignation was effective as of noon on Friday, January 20.

    While it is common for previous political appointees to submit resignations during changes of party and or administration, it is not necessarily a requirement; 38th Director of the United States Mint Edmund C. Moy was nominated and approved to the post under President George W. Bush in 2006 and stayed on to serve under Obama until 2011.

    With Jeppson’s departure, U.S. Mint Chief Administrative Officer Dave Motl becomes the Acting Principal Deputy Director. He will fulfill this role until the Trump Administration chooses Jeppson’s permanent replacement.

    The Mint has no further news at this time concerning Jeppson’s resignation or any upcoming nominations, but a public announcement of some kind is expected soon. CoinWeek will update the story as new information becomes available.”

  191. So Krates says

    @ bobo – No direct cause is evident for the 7.5% loss today…biggest one day loss in a decade.

    While the price move could be described as shocking by some investors, it is not surprising to some analysts, who noted that the precious metal is fairly volatile. Analysts reached by Kitco News did not see any signficant motive behind the market’s record selloff.

    In an email to Kitco News, John Howlett, division vice president and head trader at Mitsubishi, said that he is not surprised by the selloff, adding that he saw no significant reason why palladium would rally 17% in a matter of weeks in the first place.

    James Steel, chief precious-metals analyst with HSBC, said that palladium is a relatively thin market so it is not surprising to see exaggerated moves.

    Jim Wyckoff, senior technical analyst at, agreed that the overall move is impressive, but he sees it as basic profit taking as the metal hit a multi-year high the previous day.

    “This is just a downside technical correction with traders taking some money off the table after prices rallied strongly the past few weeks,” he said.

  192. A different Jeff says

    So, back on the 2017-P cents, if additional production is made in San Francisco, will those be without mintmarks?

  193. Joe M. says

    In 2028, I would hope to see a .900 Gold Morgan Dollar, 8TF REVERSE, for the 150th Anniversary with the actual circumference and thickness. 🙂
    Can someone calculate how many ounces that would be??
    How far am I off if I say 2.2??

  194. KML in KY says

    Just pre ordered a tube of Effigy Mounds from APMEX. Due to their low mintages and varied designs 5 oz ATB’s are my favorite bullion coins. I’ve bought one or more tubes as they have been released since 2011 and will continue to do so as long as I can afford it.

    I would like to see fractional Buffalos in proof and burnished again. I was fortunate enough to get some of those sets in 2008.

  195. says

    Any bets on how long this rally will last (stock market up, gold down)? I heard on the news (please no MSM comments) that this rally is likely due to white house announcing plan to lower corporate taxes…reality is that it will take some time for tax code modifications to get through congress.

  196. says

    I know I’m not a big time modern collector like you are KCSO, but you do know that many many many coin collectors think TPG’ing of modern coins is a bit ridiculous in general (not to mention all this EXTRA marketing “first strike”, etc. bs).

    The fact that some people pay a LOT more money for TPG-determined MS70 compared to an MS68 or MS69, when most people with a loup can’t tell the difference, kind of borders on mental illness.

    I mean is it a modern rarity, and if so, does it really need to be blessed by a TPG to have value? Honestly, we all know that you can submit and re-submit and eventually you’ll get a particular grader that slept really well the night before and squeezed in his/her morning run or had that extra cup of coffee and felt that particular coin on that particular day was worthy of 70 as opposed to 69. Geez.

    I totally agree that all of this “dcam”, “frist strike” label this label that stuff is total fad realm, and just marketing. Numismatists don’t typically give a hoot.

    Obviously, in the end: If it makes you happy / It can’t be that bad…

  197. Einbahnstrasse says

    @ Joe M. –

    Well, the gold Kennedy was 3/4 oz., so a gold Morgan ought to be about 1.5 oz. if we want it to be actual size. The gold Walker was only 1/2 oz., and undersized.

  198. Imwithher says

    Einbahnstrasse says

    January 26, 2017 at 4:46 pm

    @ Joe M. –

    Well, the gold Kennedy was 3/4 oz., so a gold Morgan ought to be about 1.5 oz. if we want it to be actual size. The gold Walker was only 1/2 oz., and undersized.


  199. merryxmasmrscrooge says

    we stole their land, nature and culture

    but not their spirits

    This is really Their Land and the Mint recognizes this

    Indian Nation will return

  200. Dustyroads says

    Did anyone else get the APMEX gift in the mail recently? If so, what are the #4, #8, #12, #6, and #2 slots for on this all in one tool?

  201. Phil says

    Yeah Dusty I got two of them LOL and I have no idea why two. I think those are nut driver sizes. Slide it down on end and start turning if there’s room. I’ll stick with the can opener “bud”.

  202. Buzz Killington says

    @cag —

    Do you really think they will change the design on the half dollar, considering it is essentially a non-circulating coin? (It is very possible that not one half dollar is used in a commercial transaction in the entire United States today.)

    I would much rather see politicians offs coins entirely, and a fundamental re-design of the coinage system, with the smallest denomination being raised considerably, and making coins for $10 or $20..

    But apparently the strength of the Zinc lobby is the only reason that pennies are still made. (The amount of changes to the political system if a real outsider was in charge would be amazing.)

  203. gatortreke says

    @ Buzz: Re: the half dollar in commercial use today, I went to a college baseball game last year and the prices at the food vendor were designed to all end with $x.00 or $x.50. If you paid for the transaction in coin or currency and the total ended with $x.50, you received a half dollar in change. FIrst time I’ve seen it used commerically in years. In fact, I tried to spend a half dollar at a local lunch establishment a while back and the youngster thought it was one of the new dollar coins. Hmm, that’s a 100% return on my cash, not too bad. 🙂

  204. So Krates says

    Einbahnstrasse/Joe M – “Well, the gold Kennedy was 3/4 oz., so a gold Morgan ought to be about 1.5 oz. if we want it to be actual size. The gold Walker was only 1/2 oz., and undersized.”

    FYI, the Morgan is not twice the half dollar but a bit more….and the proportion of silver per dollar is different

    Half Dollar – 12.5 g (.3615 t.oz. ASW [.723 t.oz ASW per dollar])
    Dollar – 26.7g (.7734 t. oz ASW)

    Without doing the math, I would guess it should be close enough to make a 1.5 oz gold Morgan in the same diameter if they adjust the thickness.

  205. So Krates says

    @ BK – I’m sure someone, somewhere, hit a BlackJack on a $5 bet today. The traditional payout is 3:2 which makes that $7.50. With a dollar being the smallest denominated casino chip, the half dollar coin is often used to settle the bet.

    I agree, no pols on coins, especially longarm’s suggestion of a current office holder on the half.. Too much like a monarch.

  206. cagcrisp says

    @Buzz Killington, I think everything in Washington is about politics and changing a half dollar to Reagan would seem about par for the course.

    They Have to stop making Kennedy halves at some point and now is as good a time as ever.

    Annual sets lose money year after year. At least if they changed to Reagan they would sell a few more sets.

    All these money losing coins/sets need to be discontinued but it will take congressional action to stop…

  207. cagcrisp says

    Gold AM Fix $1,184.20…

    It Appears we could have a Gold price Decrease from the Mint next Wednesday. I would Not be a buyer from the Mint currently…

    (But then again I would Not be a buyer of any Gold items left to be purchased. Matter of fact I haven’t purchased any Gold for my account since the Winged Head Liberty went on sale April 21st 2017)…

  208. says

    @cagcrisp –
    All these money losing coins/sets

    How do you figure the mint is losing money? The markups seem so high compared to cost of material and packaging. If anything, isn’t it the collector who’s losing money?

  209. cagcrisp says

    For the record…

    1. I’m Not 100% Convinced the 2017 HR coin will ever be sold.
    2. Yep they have been unveiled and Yep they are being minted and Yep we have a Launch Day scheduled.
    3. IF I was painted in the corner and I thought it was too late to Not sell the coIn I would do the following:
    4. Have a Mintage of 100,000
    5. Have a HHL of 1 and NEVER raise the limit. That way ever “collector” will be able to get his coin. (I don’t want a “collector” waking up from a comma two years from now complaining that he was Unable to get a coin because the system is rigged against the little guy).
    6. Put a “special” 225 year price tag on the offering
    7. Set back and watch
    8. The 2017 HR would then be the Final coin in the series because the People Have Voted with their pocketbook.
    9. Complete denialeability because the CURRENT Mint leadership has done ALL the above mentioned…

  210. says

    They ever get that Ft Smith mueseum built down there?

    I figure with all the USM coins I bought I should at least get free admission! 😁

  211. says

    6. Put a “special” 225 year price tag on the offering

    Is there anyone left (original HR stakeholders at the mint or CACC) to push, i.e., lead, the special price tag on the offering through to success?

    Sounds as if the mint has/had grandiose HR marketing and public engagement activity plan.., I’m going to sit back with popcorn to see whom emerges as the leader and frontline advocate to implement the plan.

    I’m not suggesting it can’t or won’t be done.., I’m just curious as to whom is ‘on point’ now…

  212. cagcrisp says

    @KCSO, “They ever get that Ft Smith mueseum built down there? ”

    Nope. Nope. And Nope…

    They have a SCHEDULED opening day of September 24th 2019.

    They took a page out of the Mint’s play book. September 24th 2019 is 230 years After the Marshal service began.

    Currently they are still in the “getting money” phase.

    (And for the record I gave to the Cause)…

  213. Erik H says

    Buzz, I know of a casino that still uses half dollars at the Black Jack table. In fact that’s one of the places I still score 40% & 90% silver at face value because people aren’t looking for it there (hidden in plain sight).

    If the mint wants to make more money from collectors they need to change the reverse annually on the Proof ASE (keep the bullion version the same). I started collecting, Kookas, Pandas, Koalas, etc. because they have variety, not the same thing over and over again. That money could be spent on American mint products but except for the RP and Enhanced ASE the only thing that ever change is the date (and a few different mint marks).

  214. cagcrisp says

    @KCSO, “Is there anyone left (original HR stakeholders at the mint or CACC) to push, i.e., lead, the special price tag on the offering through to success?”

    All the fanfare was done Before the new administration was sworn into office.

    IF I have a Super Bowl ad I would run it on Super Bowl Sunday.

    IF I wanted to Increase sales(promote sales) for the 2017 HR coin I would do my PR work Within two weeks of Launch, and not 2.5 months before Launch (but that would be for Financial reasons and preclude my political reasons)…

  215. says

    Noted, though PR really started 5.5 months prior with ‘the Flier’ leaked to Coin World,

    I’m not being negative on the coin or it’s releases, just curious as to what what the follow through plan is now that it’s gone quiet since the 12th..,

    I’d really like to hear more about the 4 coin HR release with different finishes.., sounds promising.

    Let’s see –
    Reverse Proof
    Biz Strike or Satin?
    Reverse Proof Enhanced?

  216. Scott says

    I have to agree with Eric H, the mint needs to change things up a bit not only for the Proof ASEs but also Proof AGEs too. The 2017 APE will likely be a dud because it’s the same reverse as the 1997 proof. It seems nobody at the mint has much of an imagination since Mr. Moy departed.

  217. says

    Perhaps Mr. Moy will do us all a favor, out of kindness of his heart,

    & throw his hat in the ring to be appointed U.S Mint Director for a round two…

    And save us all!

    I would really welcome that.,,
    the most profound modern series and design were were introduced under his tenure (in my opinion).., & that is the result of Leadership.

  218. Erik H says

    Scott, I almost suggested an annual change to the Proof AGE as well but figured the average collector probably couldn’t keep up with purchasing 1 oz. of gold every year. I do think the Proof AGE could use a permanent reverse change right about now.

  219. bobo says

    Getting Moy back in charge at the mint would be great. He said almost a decade ago that his UHR 2009 would be the closing of one era and the opening of a new one. He envisioned a neo-renaissance of American coin art.

  220. says

    To all you newbies out here (that are lurking and need to be more engaging):

    Now would be the time start to start planning ahead and proceed with weekly savings allotment to get out in front of the mint’s 4th Qtr., FY’18 when it appears they’ll be releasing:

    – Liberty Medal 4 coin set ~$160+
    – Proof Palladium with killer design ~ $1,000+
    – Enhanced UNC Set – Who knows?
    – Fractional Proof Buffaloes – ~$ A mortgage payment

    Just a friendly heads up, you have 6 months to 🤑

  221. says

    Yeah, from comments made on Mr. Moy’s article that he wrote a while back, I’d venture to say he says a very strong support base within the community.

    Would be awesome if Mr Moy could find himself to saddle up again, or at least recommend his prote’ge’ for the job.

    I feel that it’s make or break – numismatically, going forward from this point on…, IMHO

  222. says

    2017 Fractional Buffaloes –

    This is the mints 225th Anny, & the have stated that they are going to mix it up..,

    Those Proof Buff’s are going to come out of Philly, or Denver.

    Just a gut feeling, but there’s going to be a surprise, you just wait!

  223. The Kid says

    2017 Buffaloes coins, if minted, should be tied into the annual head count of all the Buffaloes at Yellowstone.

    Thirty years ago my bride and I hiked Yellowstone.
    We chanced to find slaughtered Buffaloes near the “northern entrance” to the park along a river.
    Naturally, we notified the Park Rangers in Yellowstone and hiked with them back to the hidden site in the willows. The Ranger said that we were the first hikers to report such an incident.

    As we said good bye to the kind Ranger who helped us, helicopters were arriving from the northlands with many more Rangers. My wife and I feel that the animals in all our National Parks should be better protected. Some of the Revenue from Buffalo coins produced at the U. S. Mint should be used to protect these wild animals at Yellowstone.

    The Kid

  224. Montana John says

    @the Kid….Every year the bison herd is thinned in Yellowstone..this year 1300 will be slaughtered (meat going to local Native American tribes…this doesn’t include bison who wander off the Park..they’re also killed…This is a state and federal program

  225. says

    America the Beautiful Quarters 2017 Silver Proof Set

    Denomination: Quarter
    Composition: 90% Silver, 10% Copper
    Weight: 6.250 grams


    With the passing of the coin law in late-2015, that authorized the edge lettered ASE’s, also authorized 100% silver coins outside of the ASE to help control cost.

    What’s up with 10% copper?????

  226. says

    So that would imply that the Silver Proof set for 2017 WILL NOT BE the first set with .999 Silver coins..,

    For the U.S Mint in 2017, I’d like them to stick to one simple saying –

    Say what you mean, & do what you say.

  227. says

    CALENDAR YEAR – 2016

    Surprised TR only sold 40,000 pucks, though that works for me.

    Looks like Moultrie will be pretty low

    By summer, I’d expect the TR P Puck to start picking up a little premium, given the designs of this year.

  228. So Krates says

    Sturgeon – Yes, lot’s of comments on coins. Please scroll up the page for two comments regarding half dollars. On the first page of this thread I made five coin related comments, second page I made four coin comments, third page I made three coin comments. So that’s fourteen.

    I see you prefer to comment on comments. Please direct me to your coin related comments on this thread.

  229. So Krates says

    Was just messing with somer older Britannia proof coins. After looking for a seam to pry open on the capsule in order to get a good unobstructed view at the glass-like surface, I realized they screw open. I don’t recall ever seeing a threaded capsule except on some kilo coins and oversize stuff. I’m used to the air-tites or USM OGP stuff where after years and years of sitting they becomes near impossible to open. Hats off the the RM for utilizing a consumer friendly capsule. One side has a wider lip all around so it can be set and easily removed from the perfectly inset holes in the box. Unlike USM OGP you risk damaging the plastic (and getting a hernia) trying to pry some of those damn caps out of a box when they are in there real tight.

    It’s the little things

  230. So Krates says

    As I recall the legislation authorizes, but not requires, .999 for the proof sets. Perhaps we’ll get a Reverse Proof set in .999. Now that might get me hook, line, and sinkered!

  231. Dustyroads says

    So Krates, The wording of the legislation was “not less than 90%” if I remember correctly.

  232. Buzz Killington says

    @SK —

    All of the British Mint stuff I have from the 1980s-1990s has screw capsules, including the small silver pounds. I have not always found them to be that great, as far as staying closed for shipping. They are certainly fine, though.

    I have started to use ring air-tites, as opposed to direct fit, because you just can’t remove coins from some of the direct fit ones. Still, I haven’t wanted to remove too many things from capsules over the years.

  233. Barry says

    The mint is not helping itself by using 90 % silver if using higher grade silver costs less. Wasn’t the idea behind the law to save the mint money ?

  234. So Krates says

    @ BK – Yes, I’ve had that same issue. I have a few Morgans that seem to have permanently fused with their direct fit capsule.

  235. So Krates says

    @ one fine dime – I’m sure Rick’s comment demanding respect for the majority shareholders was tongue in cheek.

    As for .999 vs. .9, it might be cheaper because the use of .999 is widespread whereas 90% is more specialized and may require more labor or production costs despite the lower purity. Not sure though.

  236. Tom P. - MA says

    Does anyone want to bet AkBob is still here looking to see if anyone responded to his comment?

    Otherwise nothing else going on for us mid budget coin buyers. I’ll buy the Lions club only after the silver proof quarter set comes out so I can combine the shipping. No rush for the Effigy mounds bullion coins yet. I can order next week or the week after. They’ll still be there at about the same price.

    I did get an UNC 1971-D penny in circulation today which is quite unusual.

  237. So Krates says

    The author of the twice linked FS article is careful not to speculate on future pricing or when the coins will be pulled. He is clearly suggesting collectors not investors may want to purchase now before the coins become harder to locate. That is far from Macro/Rick style pumping.

  238. Sturgeon says

    Did you see the story—-“Man who allegedly stole $1.6M in gold flakes in NYC arrested in Ecuador”—-made off with an 86-pound bucket—-he reportedly is 5 foot 6 tall and weighs about 150 lbs—–Small but mighty—I wouldn’t like to have to fight this guy—

  239. Barry says

    @ofd- this is from the article which you mentioned. at coinnews “The U.S. Mint indicates that while the material cost is lower for 90/10 alloy, the efficiency, quality and manufacturing improvements gained from .999 fine silver are offsetting. There is also a larger supply base for .999 fine silver blanks since they are easier and cheaper to fabricate then custom-made .900 fine silver blanks.”

  240. hawkster says

    That 86 lb. bucket of gold flakes the guy in N.Y.C. made off with is basically the same weight as a bag of Portland cement mix. Perhaps the guy was a mason’s assistant and is used to carrying a load of this weight.
    So Krates: The majority of us knew right away that Rick’s comment was tongue-in- check and tinged with sarcasm. But, there are always those who take a comment such as his at face value.

  241. TheForce says

    Please, NO MORE DOLLAR COINS!! They do NOT work!! There are billions of these things sitting in government vaults and they wanna make more!?

  242. Mint News Blog says

    @Dustyroads — Not an end, just a series of unforeseen complications that, thankfully, are FINALLY winding up. The delay has been quite frustrating, but a new post is on the way.

  243. Dustyroads says

    Honestly, I just hope everything is okay in your world. However, meantime we natives are getting restless here in the jungle.

  244. Mint News Blog says

    @Dustyroads, your concern is much appreciated — all is well, I just had a “perfect storm” of conflicting priorities. And @GoldFan, you are right and then some. Fingers crossed that the coming week makes up for the drought!

  245. smalltimecollector says

    I can see a first man to orbit earth, senator, oft decorated, member of Keating Five being emblazoned on some offering soon.

  246. merryxmasmrscrooge says

    Whoever complains we need a new post, please shut up.
    I think the Michael should take a rest.

  247. Imwithher says

    cc who really cares about spot gold prices. The mint never has sold gold at spot so really its a waste anyways. and if you cant afford $50 fluctuation you don’t need to buy over price, hyper-inflated gold .

  248. cagcrisp says

    @data dave, banks have them. They are not hard to find.

    There really has not been a lot in the press about them and as yet not many either don’t know or don’t care…

  249. cagcrisp says

    Gold PM Fix $1,192.80…

    Wednesday’s PM fix will be the main obstacle for there to NOT be a Gold price Decrease.

    It would take $1,222.35 or Over for the next 3 fixes for there to NOT be a price Decrease Unless Wednesday’s PM fix is $1,200.00 or Over…

  250. bobo says

    Why do Americans not like using dollar coins? In Europe one and two euro coins are in everyone’s pocket. In Asia and Canada and almost everywhere else, there are also equivalent coins in common use. So America is unusual in this regard. I could understand when the mint made Eisenhower dollars that were just too huge, or Susan B. Anthony dollar coins that looked too much like quarters. But why not now?

  251. cagcrisp says

    There has been comments posted on here about what will happen to secondary pricing IF/When the Mint issues the Fractional Buffs again.


    …Look No farther than what has happened on the bay since the Mere Mention of Fractional Buffs being produced.

    Not a Lot of Selling, however, a LOT of New Listings.

    Prices for the 2008 Buffs will come down IF/When the Mint produces Fractional Buffs because IF/When the Mint makes this an annual event (which I Suspect) there will be at Some point Lower Mintages than the 2008 issues…

  252. Mintman says

    Releasing fractional Buffalo gold will definitely have an impact on the prices of the 2008-w fractionals, even if they are minted in much higher quantities; if you want any fractional Buffalo gold you MUST by 2008’s…..not the case if they mint 2017’s

  253. cagcrisp says

    According to the Mint’s website, the Mint has Sold 20,000 bullion 2017 APE’s.

    That Equals the numbers Sold in July (19,000) and August (1,000) of 2016…

  254. achmed says

    This is for the administrator of Mint News Blog:
    Is it possible to remove comments that have nothing to do with coins? I use this blog as a source of information about coins. But what do I find in the last two weeks? people’s comments about other people contrary to kind manners.

  255. Government Drone says

    The most cited reason for dollar coins not circulating is that dollar notes have not been withdrawn. In other countries that have successfully introduced high-value coins (the UK, Canada, etc.) the note of the same denomination was withdrawn at the same time; people simply had no choice in the matter.
    For whatever reason, in the US the dollar bill wasn’t withdrawn when the SBA & later dollars were introduced, so we never see the coins very much at all. They do circulate, on a limited basis. In the 1980s & 1990s SBAs were most often found in some city mass transit systems where the fares were over $1. Several million were put into circulation every year during that time, from the massive stockpile made in 1979-80. So, although one rarely saw any SBA dollar in change, it was actually one of the more “successful” dollar coins in terms of entering circulation.
    Starting around 1997 the Post Office began using vending machines that took in bills up to $20, but made change entirely in coinage, dispensing large numbers of SBA dollars. Starting that year the annual demand for dollar coins jumped to something like 60 million a year. Within a couple years the remaining stockpile of SBA dollars were used up from the Federal Reserve vaults & a new issue of dollar coins had to be made. They weren’t quite yet ready with what became the Sacagawea dollar, & even had to issue new SBAs in 1999.
    Since then, dollar coins have been needed for circulation at the rate of about 50-60 million per year. But they turned out nearly a billion Sacagaweas in 2000-2001, which swamped that demand. The Post Office also switched over to a different self-serve kiosk that used credit cards (no cash of any sort), though the 50-60MM/year demand seems to have been maintained.
    After a long pause, the Presidential dollar program started in 2007, again with a large issue of coins, which got progressively smaller for each succeeding president. Demand was artificially goosed up in various ways, but eventually all the dollar coins of the 2007-2011 period washed back up into the Federal Reserve & other government vaults, & once again we ended up with a stockpile that was about 1.6 billion at its peak in 2011. The mint stopped making coins for circulation after that, & the stockpile has been going down by about 50 million a year.
    In some dollarized countries in Latin America (Ecuador, in particular) the Sacagawea dollar has seen extensive circulation. It’s reported to be a rather popular coin down there, & some believe that it had been deliberately designed for them, with the realistic portrayal of an American Indian.
    And so the US’s checkered history of the dollar coin continues…

  256. cagcrisp says

    According to the Mint’s latest numbers there were 4.7 Billion Philadelphia cents produced in 2016.

    IF the do All 2017’s Philadelphia cents with a “P” mint mark, there should be plenty to go around…

  257. Erik H says

    I asked one of my local banks if they had any 2017 cents and the teller told me that she hadn’t order cents in a while. I’ve been too busy to ask other banks or branches but maybe this week I’ll have some free time.

  258. Mint News Blog says

    @achmed, I’m in the process of doing that right now. During last week’s crunch, I didn’t read the comment thread closely — I just checked in for a minute once a day or so. I must have landed in between flurries of nasty posts, because I was actually pleased to see that everyone was staying on-topic. Today I’m reading everything back to the time of my last blog post, and I’m deleting a great many comments as I go. I apologize for letting things get so contentious, I really had no idea.

  259. Just Another Dave In Pa says

    I’ve never asked the bank for a box of coins. I may have to try. My go to roll and box dealer wants $52.00/box for the new pennies + $14 shipping. I guess that’s not too bad but for $25 fv I’ll ask the bank. They frown upon roll hunters from what I’ve heard.

    I’ve gotten some 2009 rolls lately (in those white boxes from the mint) for close to release price. They carried a high premium for a while.

    My other latest obsession is with sixpence coins. There are some beautiful designs. They go great with weddings, too. “Something old, something new, something borrowed, something blue and a sixpence in her shoe” is an old tradition in which the bride puts a sixpence in her left shoe for good luck. I like the British designs but the Irish coins are my favorite. The Irish Wolfhound 5p coins are beautiful. They have 1 penny and half-penny coins that feature the bird designs from the Book of Kells which is called the national treasure of Ireland.

    I love my Trump Dollars , too. They’re basically Norfed Dollars. I like the designs, too.

    I think MNB is great. Lots of diverse opinions makes for interesting discussions. It’s too bad that political rancor gets expressed in such pettiness but that can be attributed to a lot of things. It might be better to have a forum for different topics (a la and keep ot discussions to a minimum. or whatever…. I’m not bothered by any of the posts here.

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