First Look: Lyndon B. Johnson Coin & Chronicles Set

lbj1The U.S. Mint’s product page for the 2015 Lyndon B. Johnson Coin & Chronicles Set has been updated to include new images and an order limit of 2 sets per household. The set, available for $57.95, will be released on October 27 at noon ET and will have a product limit of 25,000 units.

The Johnson set is the fourth and final 2015 release in the popular series. It includes an exclusive Reverse Proof Presidential $1 Coin, a presidential medal struck in silver that is .999 fine, a Lyndon Johnson postage stamp issued in 1973, and a booklet featuring pictures from the President’s life, military service, and his years in the White House.

The obverse of the Reverse Proof Presidential dollar bears a portrait of Johnson facing the observer, with LYNDON B. JOHNSON, IN GOD WE TRUST, 36th PRESIDENT, and 1963-1969 inscribed along the rim of the design. The reverse features a design common to all of this year’s Presidential $1 coins, with an image of the Statue of Liberty surrounded by the inscriptions UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and $1.

lbj3The silver medal’s obverse features a rendering of Johnson in profile, with LYNDON B. JOHNSON circling the rim. The reverse carries the Presidential Seal with the inscriptions PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES and Johnson’s inauguration date of NOVEMBER 22, 1963. Also inscribed on the medal’s reverse is a quote from Johnson’s “Let Us Continue” speech, delivered to Congress on November 27, 1963: WE WILL SERVE ALL THE NATION, A UNITED NATION WITH A UNITED PURPOSE. – LYNDON B. JOHNSON

The LBJ set is expected to meet high demand upon its release. 2015’s previous three Coin & Chronicles issues have all seen impressive sales. The Harry S. Truman and Dwight D. Eisenhower sets both sold most of their 17,000-unit allotments within 15 minutes of being launched, while the John F. Kennedy set, issued last month, sold over 40,000 of a 50,000-unit limit in its first hour of availability. The Kennedy Set is still in stock at the Mint’s Web Site, leading some collectors to conclude that its product limit was set too high for it to accrue much value in the short term; by contrast, a quick sell-out of the Johnson set—with its lower product limit of 25,000—seems likely considering the brisk sales that greeted its predecessors.

After the Lyndon Johnson set, the next issue in the Coin and Chronicles series will feature Ronald Reagan and is due for release in 2016. Tom Jurkowsky of the U.S. Mint has confirmed that the set will also include a Reverse Proof Presidential Dollar.

For more information, visit the product page for the 2015 Lyndon B. Johnson Coin & Chronicles Set on the U.S. Mint’s Web site.

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Comments

  1. thePhelps says

    I like the profile on the medal. Too bad the mint has taken to providing poor images on the dollar coins – which is in sharp contrast.

  2. cagcrisp says

    ‘Sold Listing’ of the ‘2015 high relief Liberty’ on the bay Through 10/01/15 since Day 1. (updated Sales Number since 09/20/15):

    OGP…..170…. Average Sold pricing….$1,630.15 (+16 Sold)
    NGC 68…..3…..$1,514.83 (+0)
    NGC 68PL…..1…..$1,625.00 (+0)
    NGC 69…..71…..$1,606.50 (+3)
    NGC 69PL…..13…..$2,099.61 (+3)
    NGC 70…..340…..$1,818.38 (+20)
    NGC 70PL…..5…..$6,869.80 (+0)
    PCGS 69…..60…..$1,568.09 (+5)
    PCGS 70…..359…..$1,828.27 (+49)
    PCGS 70PL…..11…..$9,214.91 (+2)
    TOTAL …..1,033…..$1,867.42 (+98)

  3. Brad says

    While it would have been better had the Mint left the mintage limit at 17,000, this Johnson set will still do very well. There’s always a possibility that sales may slow a bit due to the perceived lack of interest in the Kennedy set, but that ultimately won’t matter. I’ll still be in there fighting for mine at the opening bell! I need it for completion, and I’m not going to risk missing it.

    Regarding the Kennedy set, the sad part is had the Mint made the limit 40,000 instead of 50,000, it would have sold out in the first hour and would be commanding a nice premium now. However, since the Mint can’t seem to move out those final 2,000 sets, it will be tainted for a long time to come.

    On a final (unrelated) note, doesn’t it seem that the Mint should remove the household ordering limit on the NA Coin & Currency sets? At this point I doubt many would buy extras of them anyway, but leaving the unneeded limit intact is like shooting themselves in the foot! At least TRY to help move them out!

  4. Jayarejr says

    If the Mint still has Kennedy C&C sets left, then why was my order cancelled? Seems like the left had does not know what the right hand….

  5. Bill777 says

    Agree with Brad on removing the hh limit for the NA coin and currency set. I would probably buy a few more for gifts etc. I was expecting the limit might be removed on October 1, but didn’t happen. Also could remove (or raise) the Kennedy C&C hh limit and probably would sell out quickly, although I agree that the damage has been done in terms of it not having sold out within a few days or a week.

    However, this is by far the rarest small-size dollar coin (by date and mint-mark), since there would be only 90,000 of these 2015-W dollars available in any condition. Maybe people are no longer trying to collect complete sets by date and mint-mark?

  6. cagcrisp says

    Tale of Two Coin and Chronicles

    Truman vs. Eisenhower

    I’ve tracked the Truman’s since 08/02. Total bay Sales since 08/02 for the Truman’s in OGP are 475

    1st 62 Sold Averaged $201.00
    Next 59 Sold Averaged $204.81
    Next 59 Sold Averaged $205.93
    Next 59 Sold Averaged $192.91
    Next 59 Sold Averaged $193.37
    Next 59 Sold Averaged $193.64
    Next 59 Sold Averaged $195.57
    Last 59 Sold Averaged $214.75

    I’ve tracked the Eisenhower’s since 08/17. Total bay Sales since 08/17 for the Eisenhower in OGP are 1,671

    1st 215 Sold Averaged $206.68
    Next 208 Sold Averaged $190.01
    Next 208 Sold Averaged $181.08
    Next 208 Sold Averaged $169.49
    Next 208 Sold Averaged $165.77
    Next 208 Sold Averaged $164.73
    Next 208 Sold Averaged $160.19
    Last 208 Sold Averaged $153.62

  7. Bill777 says

    Should have made explicit in my post that the 90,000 is for the NA dollar (not Kennedy dollar for which there presumably are millions in regular uncirculated conditon).

    Re Johnson C&C, would have been nice if the medal had had an interesting reverse (like the Truman and Eisenhower silver medals), not just the Great Seal.

  8. says

    The Mint’s inconsistent household limits, product limits, and mintage limits all defy logic for want of any explanation. There must be reasoning, but they just won’t say. Why?

    Because of the Mint’s erratic sales and distribution policies (and the fact that I’m quickly running out of storage space), I’m thinking of selling one complete set of Presidential Coin & Chronicles sets from Lincoln to Kennedy in OGP on ebay to give someone who missed out a decent shot at obtaining a complete set and continuing on through next year. I’m not sure what a fair starting price should be, but my experience is that buying bundles of a series is usually less expensive than buying every coin or set separately. I’m thinking the fairest starting price would simply be what I paid (plus shipping).

    I’ll still have two complete sets which my collection requires (one for grading and the other to keep in OGP), but the Mint’s recent website antics have left a lot of people who wanted to collect a complete set out in the cold. My local coin club has a general disdain for modern coins, so I’m thinking ebay is the best way to reach these collectors.

  9. Goat says

    Yelp . consistently inconsistent
    25000 of a person that’s ???? and other officials at that time .

    My FAMILY and FRIEND’S have ??? with his/other official’s in office at that time.
    Truth is poor people are expendable .

    With this statement !
    I give the upmost most respect too our VIETNAM VETS , to all that served at that time ! May GOD bless you all !

  10. jeff says

    Clark Double would be a more fair and amicable starting point, unless your just feeling generous nice gesture ..

  11. says

    Hey Clark, please let us know when you list your collection on the Bay. I was thinking of doing the exact same thing. Hopefully a decent profit on the extras will help us offset the future releases. Good Luck!

  12. says

    Just another Mint created collectible with a contrived and arbitrary mintage limit, in which collectors will be fighting over to keep their collection/hoard of C & C sets “complete” or “intact”.

  13. Xena says

    Clark – You raise good points, especially storage space. A month or 2 ago, I saw a Lincoln thru Ike set on this website (http://coinandchroniclessets.com/) for… it was either $795 or $995 (no idea what/if they really sold for). I don’t see it there now, although there are some collections on ebay.

    Jeff’s point is good. I don’t like flipping, but I’d argue that’s not exactly what you are doing. I think you could start a little higher than just cost plus shipping, then see where it goes. Another option maybe – do you have a coin show coming up in your area? Might be worth shopping it around there to see if there’s interest.

    My coin club and my local coin shop shun moderns also.

  14. says

    Thanks, Xena. As a history buff, I enjoy the presidential C&C sets and think they make an interesting library with a numismatic twist.

    I vividly remember back in October 2009, when the Lincoln Coin & Chronicles Set went on sale with a one per household limit for the $55 set. It was special not only because of Lincoln, but also because the Mint wanted as many collectors as possible to participate, but it didn’t produce enough to dilute the excitement. All the coins in the set were available a la carte, so I personally was more interested in the U.S. Government’s chronicles of Lincoln’s life…the coins were just really nice visual aids. Now the darn things are selling in the $125 range, which suggests that the literature in the set appears to have lasting appeal and value. More recent C&C sets are still nice, but don’t have the same heft or tactile appeal of the Lincoln and T Roosevelt C&C sets, IMHO. Long may the series live.

  15. a Bob says

    The medals produced in the late 60s. And 70s are bland. This one included.
    Do I need this for my medals collection? Yes. Great art? Meh.

  16. Brad says

    Something I find neat to think about regarding these C & C sets is the stamps they contain. Who ever would have thought that when these millions of stamps were printed 42-50+ years ago that a small handful of them were destined to one day be included in hot U.S. Mint coin products?

    Back in 2002, I bought a postcard on eBay because it had the 1 cent 1898 Trans Mississippi stamp on it. It was postmarked St. Louis Missouri Dec. 24 1898 and had several small pictures of the city and Mississippi River on it (one of which I believe shows the area where the Gateway Arch is today). The cool thing about it is, the woman who dropped it in the mail that Christmas Eve never realized that someone would pay $26 for it 104 years later. I love thinking about the history of things like that, like where the postcard spent all the years in between the time it was mailed and when it ended up in my hands. That’s part of the fun for me when it comes to old coins and stamps. I actually collect both, so these C & C sets are good for me in both areas.

  17. Mr. Kairu says

    It is nice to sell the extras in order to help out someone who may have missed out, Clark. I actually just sold my own Truman/Eisenhower just because I needed to condense my collecting priorities and also these uncertain modern sets seemed more risky than Capped Bust or Seated Liberty coinage for my 7070. Luckily though, got a nice profit on the two sets so now gotta figure out what to spend that on. Hopefully I won’t be kicking myself years down the road too hard but we will see…

  18. cagcrisp says

    17 Separate listing for BIN’s for the Eisenhower were Sold withing an Hour Window. Looks like they were just lined up and Closed out bang bang bang. Many Lower BIN’s were skipped over for these 17. The Lowest Sales was for $160.00 and the Highest Sale was for $199.95.

    Some very strange Sales. Some went Internationally and Some show the Same Buyer. In all the Sales of Eisenhower’s that I have tracked I’ve never seen this many BIN’s Concluded this rapidly.

    It Sure took a Lot of BIN’s off the market…

  19. fmtransmitter says

    Momma always said life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what your gonna get..

  20. johnaz says

    Send a copy of that tape to ANACS,About that guy on HSN. I think they have rules about being honest.Coin dealar.

  21. cagcrisp says

    One of the same parties that were responsible for the Majority of the 17 BIN’s Eisenhower’s last night is Back today. Currently bought 2 more Today. That’s a Total of 12 Eisenhower’s Bought and Currently has the High bid on 7 Other Eisenhower’s.

    Leaving out the Lower priced BIN’s and taking out much Higher BIN’s.

    There is a reason for the Madness. I’ve tracked the same pattern before in the coin market but usually I see it in gambling or the stock market. I tracked the same pattern in 2009 for the Gold Ultra High Relief and most recently with the 2014 Gold BHOF.

  22. VA Bob says

    Will pass on these just like the JFK’s, since the Ike set wake up call. I’ll happily leave the two sets I’d normally pick up to those participating in the US Mint’s personal flipper stimulus program which penalizes collectors without the time, resources, or just plain luck to get on the website in time. Good luck to all playing the game.

  23. VA Bob says

    Cag – those international BIN’s probably went to China as templates for counterfeits. After seeing the ridiculous money being paid for clad, it makes it all that much more lucrative for the counterfeiters. They can even use real silver for the medal and still come out ahead. Packaging is already made there.

  24. Ends in Error says

    VA Bob

    Give it a little time and everything from this era will turn out to be a loser for US Mint Hoarders. These metalic POGS are too numerous to hold any value.

  25. cagcrisp says

    I had Zero Interest in the Kennedy and I have Zero Interest in the Johnson. IF the Mintage is ‘correct’ the Reagan has potential.

  26. Sith says

    @Steve G – Yep I always wondered how people consider Johnson so highly on Civil Rights when he actively sent citizens who did not fit in a Market-Based Economy, to Vietnam., and then assured their defeat by his inept micromanagement of the conflict…“Those boys can’t hit an outhouse without my permission”

  27. jeff says

    VA Bob your comments #1 & #2 just made TPG happy and made their point have your coins graded for authenticity . By this it will brings higher premiums .. GO TPG’s

  28. CaliSkier says

    @VA Bob: The counterfeit scenario is very, very likely…. One reason that TPG’s prove quite useful. That’s one reason I like to purchase directly from the mint. Keep in mind that counterfeiters have and are probably at this point able to produce most if not all TPG holders and I’m guessing the legitimate barcodes and serial numbers to go with them. So unless the original person with the genuine product refutes or sees the fake version up for sale, some other collector will be duped….maybe, maybe not the case…. I had this thought when a few years back I p/u a few graded modern uncircs off EBay. Ponder?

  29. So Krates says

    @ CaliSkier – I have run into more slabbed counterfeits this year than ungraded. They all had very high quality holders and matching numbers.

    @ CaliSkier/VA Bob/cagcrisp – Perhaps I’m missing something…why would a Chinese or any other counterfeiter buy the higher BINs but leave the cheaper ones alone?

  30. cagcrisp says

    @So Krates, “why would a Chinese or any other counterfeiter buy the higher BINs but leave the cheaper ones alone?”

    Answer: ‘ships to”

    NO ‘ships to’ China

  31. Tom P. - MA says

    @ a Bob indirectly. My wife asks me why I watch these coin TV shows if they upset me so much!

  32. stephen m says

    Sith, and Jimmy C granted everyone that left the states to avoid the war and draft amnesty after that war. You all come on back to the US boys, all is forgiven. Just wasn’t right right.

  33. Larry says

    Went to a local coin show to try and trade my extra Truman for an Ike. No luck. Most of the dealers didn’t even know the sets existed and none had ever seen one. But one old timer did want to do a deal, but I declined, I will just wait until I can make the trade. I did find a dealer selling a few things for 5% under grey sheet, so I picked up a nice 1964 proof set to compliment my 2014 Kennedy anniversary coins.

  34. CasualCollector says

    @Larry
    Right now the Truman CC is worth more than the Ike CC. Out of curiosity, was it no luck because nobody had the Ike Set? Or did dealers have the Ike set but refused to do the trade? I know I would have given you an Ike set for a Truman (assuming the condition of the coin/medal/stamp were the same).

  35. Larry says

    They didn’t have any of the sets. A couple said they tried to buy from the mint, but ran into the same trouble as most of us. I know the Truman is worth more, that is why I figured a dealer would do the trade. Most dealers just are not into moderns it seems. I think if I go to enough coin shows, sooner or later I will make the trade. I would rather see the coins in person than buy from Ebay.

  36. So Krates says

    @ stephen m. – You are incorrect. It was a Republican.

    “On Sept. 16, 1974, President Gerald R. Ford issued a proclamation that offered amnesty to those who evaded the draft during the Vietnam War. Mr. Ford also granted amnesty to those in the military who deserted their duty while serving”.

    NY Times

    President Carter lifted the public service requirement for dodgers (not deserters) a few years later.

    Anyway, it WAS the right thing to do, The UNDECLARED war on the Vietnamese people who posed no threat us was what was wrong.

  37. stephen m says

    Whom ever granted the amnesty it didn’t and doesn’t agree with me. When our country called, right or wrong, we all should serve. The sacrifices made is what made our country great and that’s why we live in a free country with rights that others in the world aren’t privileged with. Sure everyone has the right to take an easy out but I don’t think the dodgers should have been given the opportunity to return to the USA after neglecting their duty to the country. Deserters should be shot.

  38. So Krates says

    “When our country called, right or wrong, we all should serve. ”

    That’s the defense they used at Nuremburg. Just following orders.

  39. fmtransmitter says

    To his credit HSN guy didn’t lie and say Kennedy set was sold out in his primetime show. Thanks for not telling a lie. I understand you are used to saying that and may have slipped. I see your sick and under the weather. Get well soon and just be honest Mr. HSN Coin Collector…

  40. fmtransmitter says

    @ a Bob: I yell all the time. I’m Italian. Bada bing bada boom…But seriously he prolly was just tired and sick. Buyer beware is why I shared…Hope it helped some people who may have believed him. This is the one hobby you should be honest in. If there is one hobby to do it ie be honest, it is this. If your on national tv to boot..

  41. says

    I’ve pretty much stopped going to local and regional coin shows unless I’m looking for good deals on raw gold or silver bullion. Although they are a step up from the brick-n-mortar local coin dealers/pawn shop operators (both use the same business model these days), the hostility towards modern coins is prevalent and often emotional. Last year when the Baseball Hall of Fame coins came out, I was lucky enough to have a few extra silver BHoF dollars that I thought to share locally at almost my cost. One crotchety old man hobbled a long distance across the room just to tell me, “I have zero interest! Zero!! in those baseball coins!” I politely laughed at him and watched him hobble back to his table where he was selling crappy old circulated coins in cardboard flips which he’d graded by hand in ball point pen before I was born. Thank goodness Al Gore invented the internet or that environment would be the extent of the hobby for me.

  42. says

    A common theme in some of the comments on this thread is that: 1). dealers have little regard for moderns and, 2). many coin club members don’t bother pursuing moderns. Enough said.

    Va Bob,
    Yes, the Mint has turned these recent C & C sets into a “catch-as-catch-can” game, turning off many of it’s formerly loyal customers.

  43. says

    I just want to point out that many local dealers have great disdain for modern numismatic products.

    Also, it is important to remember that a lot of local coin club member do not collect recent issues from the United States Mint.

    Does anyone else share these observations?

  44. says

    I just want to point out that many local dealers have great disdain for modern numismatic products.

    Also, it is important to remember that a lot of local coin club member do not collect recent issues from the United States Mint.

    Does anyone else share these observations?

  45. Sith says

    @stephen m – You do realize your debating\chatting with a troll. One minute he is praising a president’s actions, the next minute he is bad mouthing the very same president’s actions. It just shows that it does not mater what side\point he debates as long as he gets a rise out of someone …For the record my initial post was against a President who sent the people your troll says benefited from his administration and assured their defeat by his inept micromanagement of the conflict.

  46. Jeff says

    That’s why coin shops are going out of business and becoming pawn shops, get with the times coin dealers haha.
    I would not buy anything from a coin dealer that’s me .

  47. Sith says

    Every coin show I have been too seems to have lots of moderns for sale, and the few local dealers have more moderns than classic coins for sale. As far as collectors I wonder why they would disdain moderns. If true then its little wonder coin collecting is dying.

  48. Neptune says

    Ford also pardoned Nixon. Ford was a nice guy and tried to be kind to Nixon. Ford could have been elected but claimed Poland and Czechoslovakia were free countries not under Soviet control.

  49. VA Bob says

    Jeff – Only those that buy clad online and are too lazy to learn the markers on the coins they pickup without ever even understanding. Send those TPG’s all the Jeff cash you care to, if they depended on me they would have been gone years ago. Go collectors that understand what they collect.

  50. says

    Jeff–I agree with you about not buying from local dealers/pawnsters. I have found bullion priced at spot at coin shows from ordinary folks who have tables. They generally are decent collectors who are adjusting their collections or have traveled from a neighboring state to make a few extra bucks on the weekend.

    The local coin dealers’ practice of paying folks 1/3 to 1/2 of what they know coins to be worth and then marking them up with hefty premiums really is shameful. At least pawn brokers are regulated by state and/or local laws, so in a very real sense, many local coin dealers have become unregulated pawn brokers.

  51. VA Bob says

    Cag and Cali – I had a chance a few years ago to examine some of those Chinese counterfeits over there. Some are very good at first glance, but if one knows what to look for on the type of coin they collect, shouldn’t be any issues. Personally, I never buy a coin on the secondary market I can’t personally examine, and never a coin that I’m not familiar with. The counterfeit slabs are getting better too, especially the retro slabs. IMO TPG’s are dumbing down buyers that might be more cautious otherwise. Anyone that believes counterfeits, even in what appears to be major TPG’s (even some legit, maybe older, slabs could be opened and used). Knowledge is power, and make sure the seller has a return policy and sellers be careful what is being returned.

  52. VA Bob says

    Clark – the reason coin shops have distain as you say for moderns is because, novices and label buyers that pick up their coin for the eBay, HSN, or CV hype price expect the coin dealer to shell out that price or more. For some eBay is their end all be all word on coin value. Just because some are free with their money on eBay, they shouldn’t assume the dealer is. They do have to pay the overhead, then hope a buyer walks in the door. These guys have to look at a lot of “grandpa’s collection” that people bring in and expect a fortune for. Do your homework beforehand. There are some lousy dealers for sure, just like any business. Building a relationship takes a little time. Don’t expect to get issue price for that complete set of First Spouse medals next year, no one is going to walk in looking for it, and their space is probably limited. Better to find someone with more money than sense on the bay for that.

    Classic coins are probably more popular because prices are easier to gauge the values based on condition and rarity. Personally, I’d go in first looking for something I want, knowing in advance what range I was willing to pay, rather than trying to unload some junk. Find out what coins they are looking for (they often keep an eye out for pieces regular customers are seeking). Build a good rapport and, for example, you will probably get spot or near for PM’s and let the buyer pay the premiums ( that’s a better deal than APMEX or the others will give).

  53. Piotr says

    Anyone else noticed the “100 items in cart glitch” doesn’t work for Kennedy C&C or other limited offerings since Saturday AM? Now the system truly limits the quantity to 2 in cart. Just throwing it out there.

  54. says

    VaBob–You and I have different experiences with local coin shops, perhaps because we live on opposite ends of the country, but I think the business model is consistent throughout the country because I make a point of visiting coin shops when I travel.

    I agree with you that all collectors must do their homework before taking on a transaction and I consider myself better informed than most and spent years living in Hong Kong and negotiating with the people who invented capitalism (the Chinese).

    When I visit coin shops in the US, I typically spend an hour or so at the counter with my loupe and a lot of patience. I witness people of all sorts and with varying levels of sophistication enterthe shops, usually trying to sell to raise cash. I’ve routinely seen dealers pay some of these poor souls half spot for coins with numismatic value because the sellers needed money and didn’t know any better. They spew out ridiculous excuses such as: “I have enough gold inventory,” “this [bullion] is in very poor shape,” “nobody will want to buy this,” etc., etc. It is sickening to see and I leave when I realize the ethics of the shop. It may be that the poor economy has caused previously reputable coin dealers to endure endless streams of people wanting cash for coins, and who, of necessity have adopted the pawnster business model. But their mentality bleeds into the coin business.

    Just for fun, I make it a practice to ask local dealers with whom I have good relationships if they were able to get this or that new product from the Mint and they almost always reply, “Oh, I don’t touch that modern junk.” A month or two later, I usually see “that modern junk” in their display cases priced above retail–often while still available directly from the Mint.

    I’ve been in this hobby and in business too long to fall for the local dealers’ con game, but so many hapless people out there fall victim to them everyday. I’m glad the internet sellers are putting the hurt on the local dealers, but they’re staying in business by taking advantage of pawn broker patrons.

  55. VA Bob says

    Ends in Error – Well everything with a denomination will have at least that as a value. While I agree there is plenty of coins, even some of these low mintages, for what I perceive to be a contracting hobby base, there will still be some winners. 2001 Silver Buff comes to mind. Plenty of nostalgia and excellent artwork in that coin that transcends collecting numismatics alone. There’s plenty of dreck out there too, and I’m not too proud to say I own some of it. It all boils down as to what one bought a particular piece for. Can’t go wrong if it’s for personal satisfaction.

  56. VA Bob says

    Clark – To me it’s a lot like buying a car, especially years ago, perhaps not so prevalent today. A car dealer one walks into is more than likely to either give you a great price on a new car, and lower the price given for a trade in, or vise versa. They ask a bunch of questions in an attempt to learn your weakness, gotta have this model, believe your trade in is so valuable, etc. If you know the dealer for years, they might slip you an x-plan deal.

    No different for coin shops, especially for new faces. Do you really expect to get the favored client discount popping in on your travels? Most people selling grandma’s gold necklace are desperate for cash. They either think it’s priceless as the crown jewels, or they don’t know it’s value at all (or even if it’s real). How does that differ from eBay? We see sucker purchases there, some of them linked on these pages on occasion, all the time. If one treats a coin shop as a dumping ground, especially from customers that will probably never make a future purchase, a nuisance fee might not be unwarranted. Junk PM’s have to be tested for fineness, then the dealer has to sell it and he probably isn’t going to get spot for it either. The seller can always refuse the offer, problem is too many don’t. Coin shops have to make money, what would you like them to sell at wholesale? They must be selling something, or they would all be gone.

  57. The Real "Cool" Dave says

    @Sith says, October 3, 2015 at 10:03 pm

    No, no, not a “Troll,” a Sociopath — get it right man 😉

    Interesting blog string. Anyone else’s crystal ball down 🙂

  58. So Krates says

    @ Clark & VA Bob –

    I have also experienced the full spectrum of coin dealers. Most do not like moderns for the very reasons VA Bob expressed. They see HSN and CV stuff come in all day long and never have anyone come in asking for it. Coin club members are similar in their disinterest in moderns. We even hear it here from Cleveland Rocks and the like. There are a few dealers who specialize and embrace moderns (MCM) and who are very successful, but it is a small portion of the market and local dealers who try this will soon be broke. The shops in my area ARE regulated, but more importantly there’s a decent amount of competition. The better shops here are forced to pay higher if they want the business because of competition. Many customers call/drive around looking for the best price. Current rates at the best shops are spot + $10 on GAEs, spot +.$50 on bars and rounds, spot on 100 oz bars, spot +$2.50-$3 for SAEs. I could see in a one horse town one could get beat up on a buy price but in that case one should utilize the online competetion.

    As VA Bob says it is similar to buying a car with a trade in. Some dealers buy low and sell low. Others pay more and charge more. Best to buy from the first and sell to the second. Or again as VA Bob suggests, build a relationship with a dealer and hopefully you’ll find your spread (difference between buy and sell price) will start will start to narrow.

  59. CasualCollector says

    @Piotr
    About the “100 Items…” glitch — I saw that last night, but didn’t know when it changed. I was trying to check how many Kennedy CC sets were left (if under 100). But it kept limiting me to 2 in cart. I am guessing the Kennedy CC Sets are very close to the end, and we will soon see them tagged as CURRENTLY UNAVAILABLE

  60. Alex in MA says

    fmtransmitter, have you ever remove anybody from the blog?
    I am recently new to the blog (one year) so I don’t know. And if yes can we ask blog administrator to remove So Krates from the blog. Before he/she came it was a coin blog or coin related themes blog. Now it is not.

  61. thePhelps says

    So Krates… it is safe to say you are more than a one man troll. The majority of your posts are combative and seldom anything less. Once in a while you actually post a surprising and helpful post – the rest are troll fodder.

  62. So Krates says

    @ The Phelps says:

    “Once in a while you actually post a surprising and helpful post ”

    I appreciate the compliment

  63. Mint News Blog says

    I’ve deleted some unhelpful posts. Please think twice before you post combative comments. Thanks to all who are working to keep it positive.

  64. Sith says

    Thank you Dan, I should have known better than to post, especially as I have warned others about posting against a troll, but for the record I did not think my post was combative just educational, and I truly though the troll was that ignorant. As The Phelps said about the troll “Once in a while you actually post a surprising and helpful post ” Then again “a troll attempts to pass as a legitimate participant, sharing the group’s common interests and concerns.”

    But the post was obviously not related to coins

  65. mattarch says

    I talked to the coin dealer in town, where I have a relationship, to see if they were interested in a Johnson C+ C Set. I had purchased 2 Ike C+C sets and sold the second on eBay. I thought it might be easier to sell to them. No other fees, etc. They offered only $60 if I brought one in. They see no local demand for the set.

  66. Bill777 says

    Just wanted to chip in with a couple of general thoughts and questions. Relates to an earlier post about there being two different types of collectors – those collecting new mint products and those collecting older coins.

    I recently started purchasing US mint products with the MOD set, after a long hiatus from when I collected some coins from circulation several decades ago. I saw that the 2015-W proof Roosevelt dime in the set is by far the lowest-mintage Roosevelt dime (no other comes anywhere close), and is tied (with the 2015-P RP dime in the same set) for 3rd lowest mintage among proofs (though of course some of the other proofs from the 1950s will have lower surviving populations particularly in nice condition). Yet the MOD set has not really taken off after some initial interest.

    Similarly, the 2015-W EU NA dollar is by far the lowest-mintage non-gold regular-issue US dollar since 1873, except for the 1922 high-relief Peace Dollar (based on a quick perusal of the red book – though of course the old silver dollar populations are greatly affected by melting etc.). Yet the 2015-W EU NA dollar is completely languishing at a fairly affordable price from the mint, and nowhere near a sell-out at a mintage limit of 90,000.

    To avoid too long a post (don’t know whether there is a limit beyond which they automatically go into moderation), I will stop here and send another one raising some questions shortly.

  67. Louis says

    I’d have to challenge the notion expressed above by several people that modern coins are a small segment of the market and that this is supported by the fact that your local dealer won’t touch it. Modern coins are the fastest growing segment of the market, and while the number of brick and mortar shops keeps declining, the online side of the business keeps growing. MCM and APMEX are the two biggest sellers on eBay and that is across all categories, and coins are the biggest part of eBay’s business in terms of revenue. Look also at the growth of TPG’s. As for selling, unless your local dealer is someone that specializes in moderns, don’t sell that way. There are many other and better venues for selling moderns and that is not just eBay. And it’s not either or anyway, I have always been interested in classic and moderns and many collectors are the same way.

  68. Louis says

    Bill- It’s apples and oranges. You can’t compare a coin that just came out and is still avail. from the Mint to one that is about 100 years old that has been collected for a century. And anyway, the modern market is very saturated, so it is becoming harder to find winners. And mintage alone is not what matters.

  69. Bill777 says

    Further to my previous post, what gives? Since the dimes are 90% silver it should not be solely a PM issue, although from a purely bullion point of view they are not worth very much.

    Is it because there are two completely different collector groups, with only a few tens of thousands of people collecting recent issues while lots more are collecting the classic coins (and supporting prices of $10 plus for the scarcer 1950s era Jefferson nickels for example – also no bullion value – in half-decent uncirculated condition, even though multiple millions were issued, not to speak of the prices of proof nickels of that era)?

    Is it because issues like the MOD dimes and 2015 EU NA dollar are seen as “gimmicks” and not legitimate objects for collecting in date and mint-mark series? Well, that train has left the station, and yesterday’s gimmick may be tomorrow’s rarity, though of course not inevitably so. Not to speak of the really old gimmicks like the 1804 silver dollar (not struck for circulation and moreover struck many years after that date), the recent gimmickry started with the S-mint proof sets, where most or all of them were available in proof only. I see these are listed in standard references, and presumably collectors wanting a complete set have to include them. I also see the 1996-W Roosevelt dime is included in the red book, so presumably the MOD dimes and 2015 EU NA dollar also will be included in the standard reference books when they are updated.

    Is it that these series are somehow much less collected than Jefferson nickels or quarters or the like? Maybe, but that should affect value only up to a certain point, especially when mintages are so ridiculously low,

    Or is it that people really focus mainly on the sets and their mintages, with over 50,000 being problematic for any set, and below that a quick sell-out and sharp increases in secondary-market prices. The craze over Truman and Eisenhower C&C sets (while Kennedy C&C languishes) may suggest this – there are plenty of those dollar coins available in uncirculated condition – although these are truly low mintages for proofs, not seen since the early 1940s.

    Finally, I agree with various earlier postings (in other threads) that there is a danger of too much gimmickry by the mint spoiling things, although I think the mint’s website problems with some recent sets as well as other complaints are probably a more important factor in discouraging people. However, so far it may be a bit of a stretch but still within reason – special Roosevelt dimes in the March of Dimes set makes sense, as does a New York state mint for the EU NA dollar, given the linkage being made to 9/11.

    Needless to say I am confused about all this, and any enlightenment would be great. So far I have been wrong about MOD set and the 2015 EU NA dollar, but sorting out the reasons for this may be of interest more broadly.

  70. thePhelps says

    Louis…agreed.

    That said, I think older coin shops are a bit snobbish towards modern coins, because the market value is pretty much what they buy and sell for. Hard to churn a profit on a 2001 silver mint proof set – but a 1951 proof set has possibilities.

    Most here use the internet and can see what the market is for modern coins on eBay or other auction sites… no need to fret over the local coin shop – or coin show.

  71. CaliSkier says

    @Bill777: The 2014 Enhanced Unc. D from the 2014 American Coin and Currency set had only 50,000 , the 2015 NA $1 EU W this year, up to potentially 90,000, we’ll see? Both(EU) however
    are collector coins with special finishes, not intended for circulation…..it’s hard to compare as Louis commented with older low mintage dollars. However, interesting to give thought to how all of this pans out over time…. As many have commented previously, I believe even one whom collects would like their collection to increase in value over time…..even if they have no intention of ever selling!

  72. Bill777 says

    @CaliSkier, agree with your points.

    However, the 2014-D is also available in regular uncirculated condition for those who want to complete an NA dollar set, so total mintage of 1 million-plus versus 90,000 for the 2015-W. But I think you may be right in suggesting that many people collect only by the finish, and are not taking into consideration the total mintage of that date and mint…

  73. says

    If the old style coin shops step into moderns, I believe they are more likely to offer contemporary silver and gold Mint offerings, namely AGE and ASE coins. The gimmicky Mint coin sets which have proliferated over the past several years seem to be shunned by the small-time local dealers.

    Ebay sellers and specialized dealers ride the initial craze of “hot” Mint products, often getting prices which represent the “end of the rainbow”, before things cool off and values drop, sometimes precipitously. In other words, the C&C sets, for example, are in the realm of ebay sellers, TV coin hucksters, and big boy dealers who specialize in moderns.

  74. Louis says

    If/when the wholesale market is good for better-date modern PM coins, an honest local dealer even if they don’t personally sell a lot of this stuff will buy and give you a fair price. i’ve done this plenty of times like back on 2006 about 6 months after the 20th anniv sets were hot and were peaking, and I got more than they retail for now. These guys can always sell to a bigger dealer if the market is hot.

  75. So Krates says

    A favorite LCS of mine sometimes offers to pay me in clad Ikes, rolls of unc ATB quarters, Sacs or even clad mint sets…all at FACE VALUE. I have thousands of dollars worth of astronomically marked up gold plated/colored/fancy packaged clad crap from CV, HSN, American Mint, etc. all purchased at FV. That’s about what it’s worth.

    Unlike the TV hucksters, some local dealers don’t want to actively buy/sell most modern stuff we discuss here because they don’t want to be the bearer of bad news when the same customer comes back in years later expecting to be paid more or the same after all the smoke has cleared. These are often the same dealers who won’t pay extra for modern 70s. They feel it is a temporary market that may not be there years from now and don’t want to participate in the hyping. One guy by me calls them “Cabbage Patch Coins” after the doll market bubble of the 80s

  76. So Krates says

    @ MNB – Looks like right after your admonishment the poster in violation (in the VERY NEXT post) doubles down on name calling and ad hominem attacks. Not sure how that is either helpful, positive or coin related.

  77. Eddie says

    @Bill7777
    Isn’t it partly the coin album makers fault because they don’t make holes for all of the special and /or low mintage coins?
    The Kennedy albums don’t have space for any of the special Kennedy halves or Rossvibelt dimes albums don’t have spaces for special coins. None of the coin albums have any space for any of the modern coins. So if you are wanting to collect entire sets there is no place to put them

  78. The Real "Cool" Dave says

    @Louis, October 4, 2015 at 12:25 pm

    Very insightful and I have a tendency to agree.

    Oh — by the way, I am more a fan of the older “bond” flicks.

  79. Jeff says

    Mattarch that’s pawn slang for, if you sell to us we’ll low ballyou punk. There’s always no demand when you talk to a pawn broker. Stay clear of all coin / pawn shops the bay has prices set not a Grey book, not uncle john’s coin shop in a strip mall, not ampex, the bay these sellers have high standards that have been imposed on them it a buyers market if j to happy they gladly refund or exchange.

  80. Jeff says

    No krates your wrong they will low ball mom & pop when they come into the shop with their old coins, so I guess that’s fair . I know there there to make money haha. Brick and mortar is dying a slow death.

  81. So Krates says

    I assume “Mom and Pop” have at least access to a land line and a yellow pages. They can call the B & Ms in their area and get quotes. If they feel the LCS is lowballing, they can contact some national dealers and ship out. eBay is not the only way to get a fair price.

    Any LCS owner with half a brain will try to offer a fair price in order to secure possible future business and a greater marketshare. It’s ultimately in his own best interest.

  82. Bill777 says

    @Eddie

    Good point about albums for the various series not including special issues, definitely could be a contributing factor to people not collecting them as part of the series. Do the albums include places for S-mint proofs? If so, they should include places for other special issues in my opinion.

    Collecting just the circulating coins from circulation and putting them in albums is an interesting and fully respectable activity, great especially for people getting started in the hobby. But if the S-mints are seen as part of the series, so should the other non-circulating issues of that series – just my two cents.

  83. fmtransmitter says

    I like what I read and hear about LBJ. Some good, some bad but he was a LEADER! He didn’t put up with bs and Trump IMHO is that kind of modern day guy. Rather refreshing even though he has to stop generalizing so much. i was so guilty of that for many years and learned the hard way not all of us are created the same…

  84. Dave SW FL says

    Sure would like to see the platinum coin released now, with Gold priced 25% above the rarer PT. but poor old platinum just can’t seem to catch a bid……thanks VW.
    Just below $900 should provide some support from the looks of the long term chart.
    All the other
    PMs bottomed August 24. Friday was a fairly impressive day, but follow through has been a struggle for half a decade ( well, it FEELS like it’s been 5 years, but really only 4)

  85. Ends in Error says

    Ahhhh. Platinum.

    We should be able to get the APE for around $2,000.00.

    But dont even think of returning it to the Mint if you buy one.

    Their Returns Dept likes taking things home. They laugh at you if you call to complain about not getting a refund.

  86. Erik H says

    I visited 5 coin shops this weekend, one had four slabbed HR Liberty coins. Another had one HR Liberty. Another had a few 25th anniversary ASE sets and a few Kennedy 4 coin silver sets (all coins were on display but there may have been more in the safes of these shops). I also saw a shop with a box of several Kennedy C & C sets.

    I saw several Baseball Hall of Fame & US Marshal commemoratives at several shops. All shops said they sell online so my theory is that if the shops can make a quick flip they will, otherwise the modern stuff is not held in inventory.

    Last note, the MS70 HR Liberty coins I saw were very nice. One dealer tried to sell me one for what he thought he could sell it for on eBay minus the fees he would have to pay but it wasn’t in my budget. I sure would like to see a HR Liberty in a PL70 grade.

  87. Dustyroads says

    Ends in Error, I’ve been reading your troubles with the return department. Someone earlier mentioned a CC charge back, I agree with that if you have postal tracking of the return. In the very least I would never give up talking to the CS supervisor at the Mint.
    Did you request a return and then not receive it? If I remember correctly you sent the coin back, but the Mint says they never received it. I would think all you need is some paper work to support your claim to the CC company like the tracking and a letter from the Mint saying they never received it.

  88. Zaz says

    @Ends:
    I’ve been reading your travails with getting a refund on a missing return. I agree that’s there is some hanky panky strange stuff going on at the PSFWeb facility in Memphis. In May I was shorted on two coin & medal sets which they did nothing about even after submitting the form. These “missing” inventory items probably are more common with their shoddy service delivery. While my $20 loss in no way compares with your $1,450 loss, that facility really needs to be audited for theft and embezzlement. Reputable PM firms have video cameras especially in their packing and delivery rooms as do the TPGS, to avoid this issue. I’ll wager PSFWeb does not. And thus a loophole for theft.

  89. fmtransmitter says

    I only send clad back. I think I stuck a circulated NA dollar and kept the RP. Got my refund, they can keep the bill and OGP…I did have to call about them sending 2 4 coin FS Medal sets because other went to a mailbox I have no key for. If I had to return gold it would be sent full registered with signature confirmation. If you did not ship it back this way I see no re course…

  90. Two Cents says

    fmtransmitter, I’m not clear on what you did. Did you stick a circulated Native American $1 into a returned American $1 Coin & Currency Set, replacing the Reverse Proof (actually Enhanced Unc.) for a regular-issue coin?

  91. The Real "Cool" Dave says

    Just another comment about Pawn Shops — as I previously stated, I’ve had a few encounters where I Identified them trying to pass counterfeits, gold plated items and over priced items. Yet at the same time, I have also been able to get some great deals on miss-priced items, bullion items and negotiating.

    I have also negotiated and/or made some advantageous trades with dealers. Although, I did have one dealer at a show, agree to sell me a coin for a certain price and then reneged (while taking my money), when I mentioned to someone next to me what a good deal — the dealer apparently heard me and came back and demanded $25.00 more dollars (after some lame excuse); I snapped my fingers for my money back and just walked away, as did every single person (one by one) at his table. AND this was a local dealer from 40 miles south.

    Again, “Caveat Emptor.”

  92. Hidalgo says

    I was looking at the 2016 America the Beautiful quarter designs. And it struck me that 3 of the 5 designs prominently feature human beings – in whole or in part. That is a departure from previous years, when animals, scenery, etc. were the primary feature. When human beings were included (like the Shenandoah design), they were not the focal point. Of course, there have been exceptions….

  93. So Krates says

    @ Real “Cool” Dave – Same thing happened to me at a regional show on a 100 oz silver bar with a price tag on it. It was 5 years ago and I think the tag was still over the spot price. This out of state dealer tried to tell me it was an old price and now it was $50 more. It was the last day of a multi day show and I asked him if it was such an unreasonably low price why wasn’t it sold by now. I went to the show’s organizer and told him about this ridiculous behavior. At first he was hesitant to get involved but after some convincing he went over and talked to the dealer and after a minute or two I had the bar in hand at the advertised price.

  94. So Krates says

    @ Real “Cool” Dave – “I snapped my fingers for my money back”. You ARE real cool …like the Fonz

  95. A&L Futures says

    @ Piotr — Thanks for the update. Perhaps this will generate a slight spike in prices.

  96. Alfred E Numismatic says

    @JagFan

    … and originally purchased from our favorite ripoff huckstable hero … Mike Mizack of HSN.

  97. Bill G. says

    Mike Mizack will probably reference that ebay listing when he sells the LBJ coins. He will tell us that we better buy his coins now or else pay $20,000 later. Could you imagine if the buyer submits those coins to NGC or PCGS and they grade 69.

  98. cagcrisp says

    It is a SHAME that it took a FOIA to get the Mint to release the information that the Mint should have released without HAVING to…

  99. hw says

    Unless I read the Mint’s response to the FOIA wrong, returned coins are recycled to fill later orders. I’m not sure if the Mint is referring to unopened box returns and/or defective coin returns but it always has been their business model. I guess you take your chances when you return coins for an exchange.

  100. Az Dan says

    Back when Gold & Platinum were much higher a few years ago, I took some Gold coins (1/2 oz proof & Uncirculated Eagles) to a local pawn shop that was paying 2% over spot. If I sold them on eBay I would have had to pay from 10%-14% in fee’s, so getting 2% over spot was a good value compared to eBay sells which were right around spot.

  101. A&L Futures says

    I submitted a 1997 $25 PAE to PCGS in late 08 as part of a 4-coin (1997) PAE set. I was fortunate enough to have that coin certified MS70, which at the time was the 1st of its kind. Today that same coin has a POP of 6.

    In February of 2014, a similar coin sold at HA for $10,575. Eleven (11) months later one reappeared (at HA), which sold for $7,638. Without a doubt…sell while the POPs are low.

  102. Az Dan says

    @A&L, when folks buy a coin a coin for $20K because the POP was 1, they are really buying POP 1 rather than the coin. I had a similar experience in buying foreign paper currency. The PCGS populations on the notes were 1 and the seller was asking an astronomical amount because he claimed population statistics. Pity the poor buyer who buys a POP 1 of 1 note and then when he tries to sell it later finds out the population has swelled to 1000 or 10,000….

  103. johnaz says

    Those coins on ebay the ms70 from anncs,from someone that has 3 feedback, I would not send 20,000 to someone with 3 feedback. I have seen a lot of low feedback on ebay for the Truman and Ike set from anancs.

  104. A different Jeff says

    @Bill777 –
    You raise some salient points about the coin albums (presumably Dansco, but others as well) not having spaces for the ‘specials’ or other rarities of most of the coin series, thus contributing to the notion that they are not part of the series. This would include the 1996W dime and the current S mint AtB quarters (circulating quality).

    You also commented about the need for spaces for the S mint proofs. Most, if not all, of the recent Dansco album series include albums which have spaces for the proofs, yet most albums do not include spaces for the pre-1965 proofs. Those were traditionally collected as a set, and not broken up, kept either in the original mint cello or lucite holders for each year set. Generally one did not handle the proofs, and breaking up the older sets wasn’t common until recently when the TPGs got into the business.

    I recall as a kid having the blue Whitman folders for nearly every 20th century coin series, mostly because the folders were so cheap. I particularly remember the Indian head folder had a place for the 1856 Flying Eagle, the Barber dime had a punchout for the 1894-S (as if anyone would put one of those in one of those cheesy folders), the small coins type set had similar punchouts for some of the very early half cents and large cents (all of these were marked ‘RARE’).

    So, is a coin considered part of a series if there is not space for it in modern albums? I don’t know – given the propensity for slabbing, I would say it probably doesn’t matter, although given enough of those there is certainly a storage issue compared to albums.

  105. Bill777 says

    @A different Jeff

    Very useful points, though don’t know whether people follow these old threads. It seems to me that as long as something is in the Red Book and other references under the individual series and not only under the sets (e.g. 1996-W Roosevelt dime), it would have to be considered as part of the series, just like the S-mint proofs. I guess only time will tell…

    By the way, responding to some earlier comments, I was not seriously suggesting that the 2015-W NA dollar or 2015-W Roosevelt dime are comparable to century-old issues where lots have been lost due to circulation and melting, and populations of unc. or proofs are relatively small. However, the Roosevelt series is still continuing (and started only in 1946), and 2015-W is by far the key date of the series in terms of mintage, and the NA and presidential dollar series are quite new, and likewise the 2015-W NA is by far the key in terms of total mintage.

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