Fort Knox opened to civilians for the first time in 40 years

For much of the country, yesterday was “eclipse day.” But at Fort Knox, the big yellow wasn’t being covered up—it was being revealed: for the first time in 40 years, the U.S. Bullion Depository there was opened to civilians.

The Washington Examiner reported that yesterday (August 21), at the behest of the treasury secretary, Steve Mnuchin, the depository was to be opened to a delegation of politicians. The Washington Post later reported that the party included Mnuchin, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, U.S. Representative Brett Guthrie (R-KY), Kentucky’s governor, Matt Bevin, and several journalists.

McConnell said that the idea of visiting the $186 billion in gold assets “just kind of came up as a result of a casual conversation.” He declined to say much about the visit because of security concerns. Governor Bevin, in an interview on Louisville’s WHAS radio (840 AM), described the process of entering and leaving the vaults as being time-consuming, and said that officials had to break one of the famous vault seals to give them access. Stating that the gold was, indeed, safe, Bevin described it as being “freakishly well secured.”

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  1. cagcrisp says

    @Daveinswfl, “I am among those “innocents” who loved the coins but got really beat up on the values. Had I studied the hobby more when I began, I would have bought a lot more nice bullion and a lot less expensive coinage.”

    For the Most part KCSO and myself has promoted this for Years on this blog.

    Buy Bullion as close to spot as possible and stay Away from Clads.

    Even Graded Generic Old Gold and Silver have come down Drastically from highs and I continue to see pressure on intermediate grades on Many Old Gold items.

    Flip, Flip, Flip if you want to purchase Most Mint Moderns…

  2. So Krates says


    @ Buzz Killington – I think the same study found a proof palladium program would be more viable.

    BTW, I just read that the lowly Isle of Man platinum Noble gets the lowest dealer bid of the five main Pt bullion coins (spot minus $7). It was the first Pt coin I bought and still have. I, I, I, I like that design with the Viking longship. While they were privately minted (Pobjoy), and aren’t really denominated (what is a Noble anyway?), I’d still take one over a bar any day.

  3. Tom says

    @cagcrisp. So true. I mix it up. Bullion close to spot at my buy price. When it comes to graded or raw generic gold & silver, good deals can be had by offering buy to bid prices. For the moment, I’m concentrating on anything CC and some high grade early commems.

  4. So Krates says

    “Buy Bullion as close to spot as possible”

    Unless you change your mind and buy like a dealer. Then you want to be as far away from spot as possible. Under , that is.

    I used to give the same advice until a few years ago when I observed a few guys I know buying common circulated Morgans for around $30 when silver was near $35/oz. I thought they were fools for not getting a full ounce of pure silver. Looking back, those guys only lost about 15%, while I lost HALF.

  5. cagcrisp says

    @Tom, “I’m concentrating on anything CC ”

    We have probably competed against each other then.

    I don’t do “anything” cc, But I do “anything” in a Specific Narrow Narrow Narrow Window concerning cc coins…

  6. cagcrisp says

    “Buy Bullion as close to spot as possible ”

    To clarify my post. I don’t buy Bullion Gold. I buy Bullion ASE’s when they hit a “specific” price target.

    In other words the price for me This year for the 2017 ASEs was $380.00 for tubes of 20. IF it hit that price I bought and IF it didn’t then I was going to pass.

    I adjust “my” bullion prices all the time so I’m not locked into any predetermined price.

    What was $380.00 for 2017 could possibly be $400.00 in 2018. I don’t think it will be but it could be…

  7. cagcrisp says

    Again….Little Love for the “P” pucks…

    Those that have complete sets are going to end up in the Same Boat as the First Spouse people…

    Dwindling Overall Sales Numbers…

    16AN 2016 ATB SILVER UNC 5 OZ – FT MLTR 17,416 + 6
    17AJ 2017 ATB SILVER UNC 5 OZ – EFF MNDS 15,658 + 19
    17AK 2017 ATB SILVER UNC 5 OZ – DOUGLASS 15,456 + 41
    17AL 2017 ATB SILVER UNC 5 OZ – OZARK 14,073 +132

  8. cagcrisp says

    16EA 2016 AM EAGLE SILVER PROOF 1 OZ 568,781 +694

    16EB 2016 AM EAGLE GOLD PROOF 1 OZ 23,705 + 5
    16EC 2016 AM EAGLE GOLD PROOF 1/2 OZ 5,729 + 6

    16EG 2016 AM EAGLE SILVER UNC 1 OZ 203,029 + 699

  9. cagcrisp says

    The “P” will Outsell the 4 coin sets…

    17XA 2017 AM LIBERTY 24K GOLD 1 OZ 24,225 + 85
    17XB 2017 AM LIBERTY SILVER MEDAL (P) 42,513 + 580

  10. cagcrisp says

    17CA 2017 BOYS TOWN GOLD PROOF 1,392 +4
    17CB 2017 BOYS TOWN GOLD UNC 1,934 + 14
    17CC 2017 BOYS TOWN SILVER PROOF 22,878 +181
    17CD 2017 BOYS TOWN SILVER UNC 9,686 + 130
    17CE 2017 BOYS TOWN CLAD PROOF 16,028 +99
    17CF 2017 BOYS TOWN CLAD UNC 14,032 +82
    17CG 2017 BOYS TOWN 3-COIN SET 5,011 +15

    17CH 2017 LIONS CLUBS SILVER PROOF 64,753 +161
    17CJ 2017 LIONS CLUBS SILVER UNC 16,327 +124

  11. Brad says

    The 225th Anniversary Enhanced Uncirculated Set must be playing out exactly like someone here predicted: Recipients are refusing their packages and returns are outpacing sales. It’s a shame that a product is deemed a “failure” today if it doesn’t achieve an instant sellout. I guess the guy who cancelled a 20,000 set order doomed this one to failure, at least for the time being. Who knows, it may develop a following later if it turns out to be a one-off.

  12. cagcrisp says

    16XA 2016 WALKING LIBERTY 24K GOLD .5OZ 64,107 +40
    16XC 2016 STANDING LIBERTY 24K GOLD .25OZ 89,941 + 51

  13. cagcrisp says

    Platinum going in the Wrong direction…

    17EA 2017 AM EAGLE SILVER PROOF 1 OZ 299,270 + 1,917

    17EB 2017 AM EAGLE GOLD PROOF 1 OZ 6,024 + 40
    17EC 2017 AM EAGLE GOLD PROOF 1/2 OZ 1,406 +16
    17ED 2017 AM EAGLE GOLD PROOF 1/4 OZ 2,204 +19
    17EE 2017 AM EAGLE GOLD PROOF 1/10 OZ 9,313 + 181
    17EF 2017 AM EAGLE GOLD PROOF 4-COIN SET 8,093 +42

    17EG 2017 AM EAGLE SILVER UNC 1 OZ 120,161 +467
    17EH 2017 AM EAGLE GOLD UNC 1 OZ 2,881 + 36
    17EJ 2017 AM EAGLE PLATINUM PROOF 1 OZ 8,836 (181)
    17EL 2017 AM BUFFALO GOLD PROOF 1 OZ 12,480 +99

  14. cagcrisp says

    JQ1 2015 FS GOLD PROOF 1/2 OZ – TRUMAN 2,695 +4
    JQ2 2015 FS GOLD UNC 1/2 OZ – TRUMAN 1,892 + 2
    JQ4 2015 FS GOLD UNC 1/2 OZ – EISENHWR 2,037 + 3
    JQ6 2015 FS GOLD UNC 1/2 OZ – KENNEDY 6,749 +10
    JQ8 2015 FS GOLD UNC 1/2 OZ – JOHNSON 1,821 +1

    16SA 2016 FS GOLD PROOF 1/2 OZ – NIXON 2,572 +6
    16SB 2016 FS GOLD UNC 1/2 OZ – NIXON 1,656 + 6
    16SC 2016 FS GOLD PROOF 1/2 OZ – FORD 2,389 +3
    16SD 2016 FS GOLD UNC 1/2 OZ – FORD 1,650 + 7
    16SE 2016 FS GOLD PROOF 1/2 OZ – REAGAN 3,411 +10
    16SF 2016 FS GOLD UNC 1/2 OZ – REAGAN 1,909 + 5

  15. cagcrisp says

    The Mint’s website has Not updated any Bullion puck sales in weeks.

    NO Ellis Island puck sales listed…

  16. John Q. Coinage says

    I read Treasury Sec. Muchkin & his trophy wife went to check out he gold @ Fort Know. She said she wants to seeif she can use it for a sitz bath & bidet @ their Aspen mansion…why not!

  17. bob arsenault says

    if you believe that the gold is there, I have a bridge to sell too. Didn’t the Bernank say it was a relic, serves no value in society? It’s just tradition?

  18. Mark says

    @Tom, Republicans control the House, Senate and the Oval Office, the debt is no longer an issue

  19. data dave says

    In regards to the bullion ATB 5 oz pucks, it looks like the price of Yellowstone has closed the gap with Hawaii (at least on the APMEX site).

    I’m wondering if in the long run the most popular parks (Yellowstone, Mt. Rushmore, Smokey Mts, etc.) will command a premium just because people relate to those parks.

    I figure you have the standard collector base that wants them all, then you have the people who only want the “pretty ones”. Then you have the people who only want the parks they have been to. I also think there are the military collectors who want the military themed ones.

    Which one should be the favorite of the Confederacy buffs?

  20. Sith says

    They must be getting desperate to go through this dog and pony show. Anything to avoid an audit. Of topic, I was just thinking “The Great American Eclipse” had people flocking everywhere, and not a single official medal, or coin for the event. I’m sure that it would have been a high risk proposition, but could sale be any worst than the current batch of commemorative coin. Another concave coin (yes I know) but with mass appeal, instead a niche market. Oh well…

  21. Sith says

    @data dave- I just got an extra Fort Moultrie, as I just visited the fort. I’m not a Confederacy buff, but that might be their favorit, as the irony is that all they talked about was the Civil War on the tour. They had two cannon outside the fort where the old original fort stood, and at least our guide did not even mention Sgt. Jasper

  22. says

    If they would wise up and make these sorta kinda slightly concave … like an ashtray.

    Well, people need ashtrays. People buy ashtrays. If they were a nice design I’m sure the cost wouldn’t be too awfully bad considering it would be 5 Oz of Silver.

    Silver Ashtray Coins vs Silver hockey puck Coins? Ashtrays definitely the bigger seller….. no question.

  23. Daveinswfl says

    Free shipping offer included in the flashy mint mailer I got in the mail yesterday. Oh, you can still buy the 2016 uncirculated coin set along with your 2017 set (gotta buy the uncirculated set to get the free shipping!)
    2016 set priced at 1.28 X face value
    2017 set priced at 2.6 X face value
    Six fewer dollar coins for six bucks less = guess it costs nothing to mint those pres dollars.
    Guess who paid to retool the folders, print and send the advertisements, and pay for your “free” shipping?
    Don’t even ask how many times melt these sets cost!
    Was it LBJ who tried to fool us into believing that clad junk would circulate with silver, or was it Tricky Dicky?

  24. cagcrisp says

    Mintage through 7 months for the “P” cent…

    2.5456 Billion.

    IF you don’t have one, someone else has Yours…

  25. My Preccciousss says

    With 7+ billion people in the world population, I predict a mad scramble to obtain one of these scarce cents.

  26. Tom P. - MA says

    @Daveinswfl It was LBJ. Huge amounts of 1964 silver coins, then stopped redemption of silver certificates in 1968. Not to be outdone, Tricky Dicky took us off the gold standard a few years later.

    Bipartisan agreement! Usually it’s better that they accomplish nothing.

  27. KCSO says

    cagcrisp says
    AUGUST 22, 2017 AT 3:30 PM

    Again….Little Love for the “P” pucks…

    Those that have complete sets are going to end up in the Same Boat as the First Spouse people…

    Dwindling Overall Sales Numbers…

    16AN 2016 ATB SILVER UNC 5 OZ – FT MLTR 17,416 + 6
    17AJ 2017 ATB SILVER UNC 5 OZ – EFF MNDS 15,658 + 19
    17AK 2017 ATB SILVER UNC 5 OZ – DOUGLASS 15,456 + 41
    17AL 2017 ATB SILVER UNC 5 OZ – OZARK 14,073 +132

    You Sir are all too polite, with respect to, “are going to end up in the Same Boat as the First Spouse people…”

    Shouldn’t you make reference to the HMS Titanic? ‘Cause that’s where this series is headed, or shall I say going to end up.., just kidding, sort of.

    You’re a Baby Boomer.., the Greatest Generation which I have the utmost respect for.., I’m just a Gen X’er.., I’m just impatient and very to the point.

    These AtB’s are on a collision course to something.., perhaps send them to my embarrassed 7th Fleet. Sad..,

    I’m looking forward to Tuskegee.., I seriously want this one. Though the U.S.Mint will undoubtedly screw even that up with making it overtly PC.., rather than making it simply an American, stepping up to made a difference.., to tear ass across Northern Germany in a P-51 Mustang.., to make a difference.

    The U.S.Mint needs an appointed Director.., to step up and make a difference.

    How profitable has it been? Need a clue, check your dismal sales #’s.


  28. KCSO says

    longarm says
    AUGUST 23, 2017 AT 11:19 AM

    Glad gold is safe, yeah right, whose gold and how much? A lot of questions left unanswered, but as long as the average Boobus americanus believes it’s there then everything is AWESOME. I also wonder who scored the 22 MS70 Douglass pucks? Maybe Mnuchin?

    Dude, Mnuchin is too busy trying to figure out how to contain his new bride of 45 days as to how to get off an U.S. Gov’t asset without making an ass of her self. What an idiot. And I totally bought into Mnuchin. Bad, bad decision making.

    Longarm, I swear to God, I want you, or Cag, or a couple Dave’s or Steve in GA to step it up and run for POTUS..,

    This Country needs unifying Leadership.., this country is getting worse, I expected better…,

  29. Scott says

    In case you haven’t noticed, this country peaked about 50+ years ago just about the same time LBJ started paying people to have illegitimate kids. Detroit had the highest per-capita income in the whole country around 1960, look at it now. All empires collapse from the weight of their excessive government spending and ours will be no different.

  30. gatortreke says

    Whatever you may think of Jim Rickards and his stance on gold, he makes an interesting case that the gold is indeed in Fort Knox (and at West Point) and is being help as collateral for an IOU given to the Federal Reserve by the US Treasury back during the Gold Recall Act. I heard him interviewed when his New Case for Gold book came out last year and he explained it as found in this online transcript:

    You can see the sequence. Step one: take the gold out of private hands, put it in private banks; step two: take the gold from private banks, give it to the Fed; step three: take it from the Fed and give it to the Treasury. But remember the Fed is private and the Treasury is the US Government and the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution prevents the government from taking private property without just compensation. To get around that the just compensation was this gold certificate that the Treasury gave to the Fed. To this day the Fed carries that on its balance sheet.

    Now the Fed values that at $42 an ounce which, of course, is that is the historic cost. That is historic cost convention, but that was last revalued in the 1970s. Of course gold today is around $1200 an ounce so a little bit higher. But if you take the face value, the historic cost of the gold on the Fed balance sheet and divide it by $42 an ounce and come up with a number of ounces and convert that into tons it comes out to almost exactly eight thousand tons, which is interesting because that is how much the treasury owns. The Treasury says they have eight thousand tons. It is as if the Treasury cannot sell anymore gold because they need to hold that much gold at least in order to back up this paper certificate that they gave to the Fed way back when to get around the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution. That is how it is significant because what it means is that the treasury cannot dump anymore gold. If they want to suppress the price they have to twist arms to get other people to do it.

  31. Louis Golino says

    The bullion pucks include many issues that have done well. I buy extras and have sold many at a nice profit. The P’s have always been overpriced, so if you get them, it is to have a set, not to make money. I believe pretty much only the 2012 P’s have done well, though if you had other issues graded and got SP70, many of those have also done well. Plus, long-term silver will go much higher, which will make the bullion coins more valuable. The basic point is the bullion coins are low risk because you buy them for bullion prices. And while there are a lot of coins to buy, you can get each year’s 5 issues most years for a little over $500, which is not a lot. That is nothing like the spouses, which required an outlay of thousands each year and were priced way over spot and had other weaknesses too.

  32. data dave says

    @Louis – very well stated. The bullion issues are low risk and have shown decent gains. The P issues are probably a money loser like a lot of other mint collectibles.

  33. So Krates says

    I remember some debate here about the Ellis ATB. Namely NY/NJ jurisdictional issues and which side was in fact pictured. From the artist:

    “When I began researching, I didn’t know that half of Ellis Island belongs to New Jersey and half to New York,” she said. “This is New Jersey’s quarter and, unfortunately, the big main administration building that all the immigrants went through is located on the New York side, so I featured the hospital building that is on the New Jersey side.” – Barbara Fox

  34. John Q. Coinage says

    Louis It appears there is slight increase in the % being charged by the re-sellers. Agreed slved will eventually go up & up, when is the big ? Scott it is more than government spending, it is also the giant gap between wage earners & CEO pay, bogus inflation claims, ill advised warS, tax breaks & off shoring of $ a ls Munchkin off shoring billions for client swho maybe paid taxes, by the way why does his clients include ‘non-profits” off shoring their investments? Huh….. The Mint is a mess & with their ineptitude the remaining collectors are really getting po’d…they can’t get a HH limit, mintage # or anything right. I saw they wat to issue a 2017 Eclipse Commemorative- in 2019! yeah

  35. cagcrisp says

    @Louis Golino ” The basic point is the bullion coins are low risk because you buy them for bullion prices.”

    @data dave “The bullion issues are low risk .”

    Bullion pucks , Low Risks???

    The following numbers are based on the First Day the APs that I track (those Most commonly mentioned on MNB) offered a bullion puck…

    • There has been a Total of 39 bullion pucks
    • There has been a Total of 1 bullion puck that was sold by APs UNDER current spot Silver/oz.
    • There has been a Total of 27 out of 39 (69%) that were sold by APs OVER $20/oz.
    • There has been a Total of 15 out of 39 (38%) that were sold by APs OVER $30/oz.
    • There has been a Total of 4 out of 39 (10%) that were sold by APs OVER $40/oz.
    • The AVERAGE price of 39 bullion pucks on the FIRST day ANY AP that I track offered a puck was $28.25/oz.
    • …SO… for the Entire 39 bullion pucks, If you are buying for an Investment these things have been a Far Cry from Low Risk. You better Hope that spot Silver goes Much Higher…

  36. cagcrisp says

    Those that think Silver is going Up, Today’s Silver futures contract volume on the CME for December 2018 is 37 contracts.

    Last traded at $17.42 down $.076

    The Last trade for July 2022 (5 years) is $18.812

    …SO…You have a Ways to go to get back to $28.25/oz. Silver…

  37. cagcrisp says

    On longarm’s post, APMEX buy price is Currently $87.70…

    …SO…At Current APMEX spot Silver price of $16.94 they are offering a premium Over spot of $.60/oz…

  38. Scott says

    @ John Q. The bogus inflation claims are a direct result of the excessive spending I mentioned. Yes there have been ill advised wars but I think the welfare entitlement mentality has become a systemic problem and will eventually destroy us as a nation. Working wages haven’t kept up with inflation because so many jobs have been outsourced to third world countries or the third world labor force that found its way here. It’s all been years and years of window dressing by the government to create the illusion that things were better than they actually were.

  39. John Q. Coinage says

    Outsourcing, there you go, not entitlement, corporate welfare & lack of common sense & the desire of most to bet the 2.98 item (From China) @ Walmart. Do deficits matter? Yes for us hard money people, but for most they are just a #$- do you include Medicare, SocSec as ‘entitlements” they are not … if the recipient never worked that’s another story, kind of like BofA paying you .005% on savings & charging 26% on a Visa. Working wages are founght tooth & nail, see the Federal Minimum wage dispute, despite CAA haning a high minimum wage the economy is growing- albeit alot is given away here! I used to work in construction inb my youth, about 30 years ago there was a great influx of foreign workers undercutting our Union wages, corp. employers & contractors wiling to use them to make more $$$, same happened with butchers, influx of immigrant butchers many other places as well. Education is the best way to succeed….. except in San Francisco- They PAY YOU to be homeless (a hobo!)

  40. Scott says

    “Entitlement mentality” describes the deadbeats that contribute nothing, but expect the government to provide free healthcare, free education, free cell phones, free school lunch for their illegitimate kids, etc.
    Wal-Mart builds many of their neighborhood grocery stores near low income government subsidized housing, so they have a built in government income every month. That influx of foreign workers has done a lot of damage the middle class wages, not to mention the burden placed on our education and healthcare systems.

  41. NCM Collector says

    I don’t think most people would consider homelessness a success even if you are receiving a benefit from the government.

  42. Tom P. - MA says

    Free trade took out the low income workers. The internet and outsourcing are taking out mid level workers. Just have Indians do the job at a fraction of the cost. Who cares if they do it right, it’s just cheaper. As far as I’m concerned, Bush did nothing to prevent outsourcing and neither did Obama. Both parties stink.

    @cagcrisp While I have come around to your viewpoint on the P pucks, I don’t see $30 silver as a mythical possibility. The price of futures contracts reflects the view as of today. It does not predict future values. One nuclear bomb or one unpredicted event can ruin a lot of people’s days and plans.

  43. paulg says

    When President Nixon went to China, newspaper articles lavished praise on him by American business people who lauded him about the benefits of trade with China (with which there was no trade or relations at all), and of opening up the huge Chinese market to American products. However, the average Chinese worker was making 10 cents and hour, too little to afford to buy American goods, while unionized American workers were making high wages, but were a burden for U.S. corporations. I lost a high paying job with the old CCC (Continental Can Company) in 1987, due to the lingering effects of the economies purge of relatively high paying jobs. But it took several years before the wages of the Chinese worker began to rise. What attracted American business to china was the low wages of the Chinese worker, which lowered the price of the products sold in America, and kept inflation in check all these years.

  44. earthling says

    My Company (FCA) is rumoured to being looked at by Chinese Companies now. I am supposedly “Skilled Trades” but I’ve been very puzzled by my lack of Training opportunities over the past 8 years. I tell my Employers I am Literate but yet they won’t even give me Literature to read.

    Currently there is a growing investigation into the diversion of Training Funds into key Union Officials pockets. The same UAW People who were in the last Contract Negotiations.

    Guess we know why there was no Training made available. Guess we also know why the Union urged everyone to accept the last Contract.

  45. Daveinswfl says

    Better hope the union officials can’t trace you through MNB!
    Post daily so we know you’re still alive…..

  46. earthling says

    This entire country is about as corrupt as it can get. I did a research project into the American Economy in 1989 for a Speech Class. They were saying then that we were heading towards a 3rd World Status. Are we there yet? Maybe not, but we’re getting darned close.

    Down in Detroit, where entire blocks are burned out and abandoned, I’d say yes we are in the 3rd World already.

    God help us. Our only hope after Mr Trump 😯 , is the Almighty God himself.

  47. Scott says

    I think Paulg’s assessment sums up why nobody did anything for all those years. Inflation was kept in check and that supported the illusion that everything was fine.

  48. Qui Transtulit Sustinet says

    Daniel Carr’s innovative Moonlight Mint had a very attractive ‘Eclipse’ offering well before the event.

    The site seems to be down right now (“Under Construction”), so I’m not sure if it is still available, but I would think it is.

  49. Qui Transtulit Sustinet says

    With regard to ATB pucks, I like them and buy them , but am not compelled to buy each design.

    Like stocks or anything else, if you are looking for value, you need to avoid overpaying, whatever that means to you.

    I now own 25 pucks (13 different designs) with an average cost basis per ounce of $25.62 (this includes the cost of airtite capsules for the bullion, but not a monster box I plan to fill before the series ends).

    Ten (40%) of them are ‘P’ pucks, fifteen are bullion.

    I started buying ‘P’ pucks in 2012, (remote Chaco in New Mexico, which I visited and highly recommend) and the last one I liked well enough to pay the high premium for was the 2016 Teddy Roosevelt.

    I started buying bullion pucks in 2015 ( Louisiana’s Kisatchie, AKA the “Flying Turkey”) and have since picked up a 2011 Glacier N. P. Montana—the last one purchased was the Ozark (MO) this year.

    I don’t need every ATB puck to really enjoy collecting the series—another favorite park visited and puck collected is Arches N. P .in Utah.

    I like the 2018 designs VERY much and plan to buy ALL of the bullion versions.

    Yes, I have been known to watch and appreciate birds, although I would not currently classify myself as an active “birder”.

    Bullion pucks, in my opinion, are a great way to enjoy the numismatic hobby while stacking some silver for potential price appreciation and diversifying my investments that are overwhelmingly weighted toward equities and real estate. At a current cost of $3,202, the ATB portion of my silver hedge can continue to grow.

    Will silver climb well above my $25 + per ounce cost basis in pucks in the thirty years or more I may have left (my Mom is 90 and has four living siblings, two older than she is)?

    I expect it to. So I plan to continue buying bullion pucks , and may even pop for one or more “P’ pucks next year.

    The ATB pucks do separate the collectors from the ASE (beautiful obverse , but too boring in large quantities identical except for the date) stackers, but I do not agree the ATB’s will be a poor long term investment, if purchased with some common sense as to price.

    Meanwhile, I get to enjoy them, and one of my retirement hobbies.

  50. My Preccciousss says

    Qui Transtulit Sustinet:

    Ditto to virtually everything you wrote. There are so many ATB designs that I enjoy and I love the big 5oz palette. I do believe that silver will go significantly higher than $25oz at some point and that it will eventually find a price point significantly higher than what is usually thought. Just think of all the years when gold languished around the $300+/- zone and it looked like it would never take off…

    Regardless, I am happy to own quite a few designs although I agree that there is no compulsion to complete the entire set. I do find it painful to pay such a high premium for the “P’ versions but perhaps even those will one day be in demand as future collectors discover them. What seems to be a general decline in coin collecting tempers my optimism.

  51. Sith says

    All this talk of outsourcing, an China, yet nobody mentions automation. Robotics in manufacturing plants, self reading water\electric meters, that don’t even require someone to drive by, they just dial directly into the home office. i remember years ago reading about how truck drivers were safe, and everyone was fighting to Mexican trucks off the road. IE truckers from Mexico should not be driving long haul on our roads. This will be a moot point, as self driving trucks already exist

  52. Karl Meyer says

    An alternate use for the pucks that I enjoy, is there use as a coaster under my crystal glass of really good bourbon that one ice cube could ruin my fine wood table.

  53. says

    After checking my apmex account, the most I’ve paid for a bullion puck is $181.30 for the Chickasaw and the least was Saratoga which I paid $88.20. I wasn’t really into pucks when they first came out because from the end of 2010 till well into 2011, I was selling off my 20 yr stack which was around 5700 oz. The collectible coins sold on ebay, the pre-65 and bullion ASE’s sold on Craigslist and the sterling and bars and rounds to the refinery. By 2012 I was already rebuilding my stack when I got into pucks and soon found that my stack was growing faster than ever, five pucks here or a roll or monster box there soon filled my safe back up and now only 6 yrs later I have about the same as my pre-2011 level, which is mostly pucks.

  54. Throckmorton says

    The media is all over the Mnuchin trip to KY…..particularly about the wife but I have not see one mention in the mainstream media that they went to Ft Knox. Wonder why they are avoiding that aspect?

  55. data dave says

    @Throckmorton – There is a story about Mnuchin watching the eclipse at Ft. Knox. But in general the media misses the story a lot which just feeds into the poor view of them.

  56. Throckmorton says

    @ data dave – I figured they would be all over it…..accusing the power elite of pilfering gold bricks to pay off Putin. It just makes me wonder just how much news is eliminated because it doesn’t jib with the proscribed theme of the day.

  57. cagcrisp says

    The Nightmare continues for the 225 EU

    Mint Sales # 08/13/17 = 223,310
    Mint Sales # 08/20/17 = 211,273 Down 12,073
    Mint Sales # 08/24/17 = 189,089 Down 22,184

    “Continued reconciliation of sales by the United States Mint of its 2017 225th Anniversary Enhanced Uncirculated Coin set reveals the number of sets recorded as sold by Aug. 24 was reduced by more than 25,000 sets in a single week.”

  58. cagcrisp says

    …SO…From the Highest posted numbers for the 225 EU to numbers from Yesterday 08/24/17 = NET 34,221 DOWN .

    – Returned, – rejected,- cancelled, + new purchases, etc. etc. etc…

    That’s a boatload…

  59. says

    So can I finally get some of those EU Sets now US Mint?

    What? You say I can get some after I missed out because of that 8 minute sellout on the first day?

    Well maybe I’ll order about 100 next week, would you be able to handle that?

    What? You say take your time a bunch of returns are comming in from Flippin dealers?

    Well on second thought, I don’t think I want any after all. But thanks for thinking of me, one of your loyal base customers . I always knew I was more important to you than the big Dealers.

  60. data dave says

    @earthling – I would hold off on those EU sets and go all in for the 4 piece 225 silver medal set. You’ll make a mint!! I love reading your posts because I finally realized that you are a real coin collector but with a little attitude.

  61. Louis Golino says

    i don’t really have a lot of time to chime back in on the pucks and have no desire to convince anyone of anything. But I would add a couple points. First, some were more expensive due to higher spot prices, but what is interesting is how in some, even many, cases, aftermarket values have increased enough to compensate. For example, the current retail price of the 2010 coins, which were originally $200 due to $40 spot, is again $200. Now I understand most people won’t get the full retail price unless they own a coin shop, but they will do much better than they would with 5 ASE’s bought at $40 each, which are not worth half as much. Not to mention I had some 2010 sets graded and got some MS69 DMPL, which are worth even more.
    Also, APMEX buy prices I do not put much stock in and can almost always do better. I have never sold a single coin to them but have sold to other dealers. For example, I sold some extra Frederick Douglass for full retail value $150, netting me about $140, and my cost was right around $100. And there are many issues that have done well for me like Arches, Blue Ridge, El Yunque, and others, and some graded bullion I bought at great prices and sold for several hundred over what I paid due to low pop numbers. Others like 2011 were overproduced and were duds, but overall I have done way better when selling than with regular 1 oz bullion coins at the same spot level. Plus I have never seen spots on them that I can recall, which have ruined some silver eagles. And most imp. I just like them.

  62. johnaz says

    Look like the mint will eat those EU set thank to that one dealer who set back 20,000.That kick off the returns.My-be a low of 180,000 set that would be good.

  63. Qui Transtulit Sustinet says


    You are correct sir, the retail price appreciation to date on many pucks is pretty good, including the very recent 2017 Douglass and Ozark bullion (I purchased both) which tied the 2012 Volcanoes and Denali for the lowest ATB puck bullion mintages with only 20,000 each.

  64. earthling says

    Data Dave

    Yeah you got me pegged, my Man. I buy Coins and rarely think of selling. But one of the things I like about Coins is that they do go up in value. … sometimes. I don’t think I want to get into that 4 Medal Set. Even if it did go up, I wouldn’t sell anyway and I only buy Medals if I like them.

    I just recently started looking at some of the stuff I’ve been stockpiling for years. I used to buy and then store it away, never to think about it. Well digging through some of this accumulation is like seeing it for the first time. A ton of stuff is really cool if you don’t even remember buying it.


    So you think maybe I got a bit of attitude? Well yeah when the US Mint returns group robs you of a full Ounce of Gold, sometimes a person can get bad feelings. Of course I’ve been getting hustled by everyone I come across these days. But I do believe in Karma. Bad things have happened to people in the past. I just let Karma handle my grievances. Paybacks a MF …. like we used to say in the 1st Batt.


  65. Louis Golino says

    Thanks, Qui. At the same, values for Denali and the Volcanoes have softened a little since they are no longer the only 20K mintages.

  66. cagcrisp says

    cagcrisp says

    August 22, 2017 at 3:30 pm

    Again….Little Love for the “P” pucks…

    Those that have complete sets are going to end up in the Same Boat as the First Spouse people…”

    Let’s compare Apples to Apples for some of the Higher priced “P” pucks.

    To say whether these “P” coins are a good investment you have to look at what you RECEIVE and what you PAID for said coins.

    IF you are interested in an ATB “P” as being an Investment here are the Latest 5 results I have for COMPLETE “P” sets from 2010P, 2011P and 2012P from Great Collections (Many on here have Recommended Great Collections as a viable avenue to sell your coins)

    A Complete set of the 2010P, 2011P and 2012P (15 coins Including Denali and Volcanoes) cost $3,599.25 without shipping and handling charges.

    Great Collections Hammer price 08/07/16 for ALL 2010P, 2011P and 2012P = $2900.00
    Great Collections Hammer price 08/21/16 for ALL 2010P, 2011P and 2012P = $2850.00
    Great Collections Hammer price 08/28/16 for ALL 2010P, 2011P and 2012P = $3025.00
    Great Collections Hammer price 09/04/16 for ALL 2010P, 2011P and 2012P = $2850.00
    Great Collections Hammer price 09/11/16 for ALL 2010P, 2011P and 2012P = $3000.00

    …SO… You have had Lost Opportunity Cost for 4-6 Years and you Still Lose money on these “P” pucks…

  67. cagcrisp says

    Again from Great Collections…

    A roll of 10 Denali Bullion coins sold 06/04/17 for a HAMMER price of $1384.00

    That’s $138.40/coin and the earliest cost I have for the Denali Bullion is $169.65/coin

    …SO…IF you bought a 10 count tube of the 2010 Denali Bullion in October 2012 for $1696.50 and sold for HAMMER price of $1384.00

    …You Only Lost a little over $300.00 (not considering shipping and handling fees and Lost Opportunity costs for 4 years)…

  68. TomP. in Va says

    My prayers for our fellow hobbyist and compatriot Dustyroads. Harvey appears to be north of his place but the heavy rains are extended over a wide area.

  69. Erik H says

    cagcrisp, now compare Burnished & Proof ASE for the same dates and you’ll see what Louis and others are trying to say. I only collect the ATB “P” that I like. I don’t care about the price paid now. I don’t plan on selling anytime soon. The duplicates that I have sold all made me money or were a wash. (Flipped several 2010’s back in the day for big $$ too).

  70. cagcrisp says

    @Eric H, I don’t have to compare Burnished & Proof ASE for the same dates.

    I don’t Buy Proof ASE’s except for births, graduations or wedding gifts and I don’t Buy Burnished ASE’s for myself unless the price is Right.

    I SOLD 6000 oz. of Engelhard and Sunshine Silver bullion bars on the way Up to $40/oz.

    …SO… For the time frame you are referring , I wasn’t a Buyer. I was a Seller.

    The Bullion ASEs that I purchase are for Specific People that I Gift at a SPECIFIC price and IF I don’t think Spot is correct, I Pass…

    I don’t Expect them to ever be worth more than Spot Silver …

  71. Mintman says

    Some people just collect a set of ATB because they like them
    They don’t do a three day analysis on silver in order to purchase a 100 dollar puck
    At the end of ten years, maybe the price is higher than the price you paid-and maybe it is lower
    Whatever, it doesn’t really matter
    I’ve bought silver at 3 dollar an ounce and I’ve bought silver at 25 an ounce
    I also sold at 45+
    What I’ve learned over time is if you are not in a rush, you’ll do fine

  72. Just Another Dave In Pa says

    I collect each and every ATB in every finish and incarnation. I love the series. The ATB series creates a sense of time and place that no other coins in our history have even attempted.

    Most coins have dead Presidents and metaphoric depictions of a mythical Liberty or an eagle but the atb series features depictions of real places that you can visit today.

    I was reading the America’s Beautiful National Parks Quarter Dollar Coin Act of 2008

    and this paragraph stands out as an excellent standard which seems to be overlooked on some issues (the most glaring of which is Frederick Douglas).




    Because it is important that the Nation’s coinage and currency bear dignified designs of which the citizens of the United States can be proud, the Secretary shall not select any frivolous or inappropriate design for any quarter dollar minted under this subsection.

    Prohibition on certain representations

    No head and shoulders portrait or bust of any person, living or dead, no portrait of a living person, and no outline or map of a State may be included in the design on the reverse of any quarter dollar under this subsection.


    I don’t mind Frederick Douglas on the coin but I would rather not see a person as the dominant theme of a coin. The ATB series is about place… not person. I don’t know if this was an oversight or if an exception was made but it doesn’t comport with the letter of the law as far as I can see.

    The Frank Church River of No Return Wilderness should not have people in it. Wilderness is defined as a place untrammeled by humans so to include people is to defile the wilderness.

  73. sharks2th says

    @Just Another Dave – I guess if you take it literally, the Frederick Douglass and Roosevelt are not head and shoulders or bust portraits. Both show the body and leg(s) of the persons depicted. Both also have other co-dominant features in the field. It appears this wording was intended to avoid having the reverses look like the other dead famous people coins the US has had (not all the dead people were presidents).

    On the pucks, I still think the mint should have denominated them at $5 since they have 5 ounces of silver. It was a big mistake and inconsistent with almost all other U.S. coinage to put a face value of 25 cents on these.

  74. Donnie says

    Just Another Dave,
    I generally agree with you in that the ATB series should not have a person(s) as the dominant theme. There is, however, one glaring exception: the upcoming Ellis Island ATB. An immigrant family is the dominant theme, representing the thousands of new arrivals who passed through Ellis Island. And rightfully so on a well done design.

  75. Just Another Dave In Pa says

    I could do without Roosevelt or Douglas. It’s difficult to infer the intended meaning of that section but yes, they managed to circumvent the exact wording by including other body parts. Both Douglas and Roosevelt are featured prominently on their respective coins.

    I think other designs/sites would’ve been more appropriate for the America The Beautiful series. North Dakota is the terminus of the North Country National Scenic Trail and DC has many beautiful sites.

    The denomination of the 5 oz quarters is fine by me. I’m sure this was stipulated in the legislation.

    Oh, right. Ellis Island, too. Well, NJ could’ve gone with the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation Area or the Pine Barrens. The Ellis Island design is fine but again, people are not what makes America The Beautiful beautiful. At least in the eyes of this beholder, people have a limited place on America the Beautiful coins.

    These coins should showcase the natural beauty that surrounds us in each state. For the most part, the series is great and I kinda hope it continues til 2032 but a few of them belong in another series altogether.

  76. Qui Transtulit Sustinet says

    @Erik H. “only collect the ATB ‘P’ that I like.”

    “I don’t plan on selling anytime soon.’

    Same here.

  77. Qui Transtulit Sustinet says

    @Mintman “…if you are not in a rush you’ll do fine.”

    Agree. Patience is an investing virtue.

  78. Qui Transtulit Sustinet says

    @Just Another Dave in PA says “The ATB series creates a sense of time and place…features depictions of real places that you can visit today.”

    Very well said, and I agree completely.

    This distinction from other US coinage is a major reason that numismatic hobbyists appreciate the pucks so much more than stackers/investors do.

  79. Qui Transtulit Sustinet says

    @sharks 2th says I still think the mint should have denominated them at $5 since they have five ounces of silver.”

    I agree, a denomination of $5 for the five ounce of silver ATB’s, consistent with the $1 one ounce of silver ASE would have been appropriate. That said, since neither were issued as circulating coinage, it doesn’t matter much.

  80. KCSO says

    Ha, not sure what all the habaloo is about with respect to Silver…

    Silver is an industrial metal.

    The industrial revolution, in the current developed and emerging markets, has occurred in the past 70 years.., that’s not to say that Silver is irrelevant, though it’s status has just greatly diminished as a premier industrial metal as technology has evolved.., simply put, industrial demands are predicated upon technological demands and capability offerings.

    “Louis Golino says, ” At the same, values for Denali and the Volcanoes have softened a little since they are no longer the only 20K mintages.”

    – If may make a play on words.., speaking of metals and softening..,

    The current and future burgeoning industrial demand metal is Lithium. We can’t even comprehend the future demand and production status of Li ten years from now. Which further questions the viablibilty of Ag as an industrial metal.

    Now let me be the first to say that I love the feel as an awesome master piece struck on Silver.., even better if its 5 ounces.., or 10 ounces! I love Silver.

    Though my love of silver isn’t going to jade my bias nor perspective of industrial demand, financial prudence demands we consider all possibilities.

    Something to think about..,

    Would we be awestruck with coins made Li as opposed to Ag.., well of course not. Though industrial demand will be the ultimate determining factor as to which appreciates in the foreseeable future.

    Not a lecture, just a thought..,

  81. Qui Transtulit Sustinet says


    It is not a revelation that if you bought bullion or numismatic (vapor blasted ‘P’) silver ATB’s , which are both tied to the price of silver by their sellers, at or near the 2011 price of silver (the recent peak price), you are probably underwater on most purchases.

    I wasn’t buying silver during the 2011 spike. Before and after it, I was. As you so often post, I buy when “the price is Right”, for me.

    Since the price of silver is a moving target, comparing sales prices during the mid-point of a price peak— 2010, 2011, 2012— with sales prices in a declining market four to six years later (2016) will yield obvious results.

    Timing when to buy and sell requires patience and a reasonable, but indeterminate time frame.

    Short term Trader mentality is not commensurate with long term investing, in silver or stocks.

    Holding periods do matter.

  82. Qui Transtulit Sustinet says


    Yes, demand (from industry or any other source) is a key part of the pricing process.

    Do not lose sight however, of supply and supply depletion (unlike gold, silver is much less likely to be recycled) issues, and ever changing demand diversification (solar energy wasn’t dreamed of by the Bolivian miners that made Potosi the richest Province in the Spanish Empire) not to mention the ages old “store of value” history.

  83. My Preccciousss says


    In addition to industrial demand, we have just barely begun to tap silver as a medical application. As I understand it, the antibiotic properties are phenomenal and we have only seen the beginning of how it may by used in this regard.

  84. Qui Transtulit Sustinet says

    @Just Another Dave in PA says

    Re: a person as the dominant theme on an ATB—I agree with your thoughts, especially when the person depicted is simply a generic “add-on”.

    IMO, the most egregious example is the dominant generic “frontiersman” on the Cumberland Gap issue.

    The generic “hiker”on the Shenandoah and “father and son” on Great Sand Dunes are also distractions, but at least they are much smaller.

    The kayaker on the 2018 Apostle Islands is also fairly small, but equally unnecessary.

    Sgt. Jasper (Fort Moultrie) was a specific real person very closely tied to the history of the site, as were Teddy Roosevelt, Frederick Douglass, and George Rogers Clark (2018, but who are his “two men”?), and I don’t have a problem with their being a part of the design.

  85. sharks2th says

    @KCSO – Your point on lithium is spot on. Keep in mind in 2300 we will need lithium to make those dilithium crystals to power our starships to travel at multiples of light speed. Buy it now for future generations to hold on to the family wealth🚀.

    Silver has long been used as an antiseptic/antibacterial metal, as far back as the time of the Phoenicians. Many hospitals are “rediscovering” the properties of silver by embedding it in the metal tools and surfaces in hospitals to reduce the chances of MRSA outbreaks. Silver disrupts the ability of bacteria to form chemical bonds, thereby disrupting the cell’s functions and life. There was some benefit to having silver coins because minute amounts would rub off on one’s hands when handing coins, providing an effect similar to the current hand sanitizers.

  86. cagcrisp says

    Those of you that are Silver Bugs better look at the fundamentals involving the supply/demand from some Silver miners.

    I follow Toronto based Pan American Silver (PAAS:NASDAQ) one of the top Silver producers in the world. Their 6-k came out August 9th for results Q2 ending 06/30/17. The stock price “gaped up” on results. The reason the stock gaped up Not because of forward guidance in regards to Silver pricing but because of cash cost reductions and cash cost reductions projected for the entirety of 2017.

    Guidance previously for cash costs were $6.45-$7.45 /oz. They NOW cut cash cost guidance to 5.50-$6.50/oz.

    Cash costs Down 14%. That’s major for Silver production. The day the guidance was given the stock jumped ~ 8%.

    Now PAAS does not currently hedge against Silver prices. Instead “The Company mitigates the price risk associated with its base metal production by committing some of its forecasted base metal production from time to time under forward sales and option contracts.”

    What I have noticed is that when Silver futures prices Approach the $19.50-$20.00/oz. range, most of the Silver miners step up sales of futures contracts.

    As long as Silver cash costs remain in the $5.50-$6.50/oz. range they will continue to maintain the current aggressive posture. Q2 Silver production was 6.3 million oz. and they maintained in line annual forecast of between 24.5 and 26.0 million oz. of Silver for FY17…

  87. Erik H says

    cagcris, I’m still mad I didn’t pull the trigger on PAAS that morning before it gapped up. I went with another trade instead. If I bought PAAS first I could have been in & out then use my profits to buy more physical. I’m still long some PAAS but a quick 8% is always nice.

  88. Joe M. says

    I’m still buying silver. I’m long-term and have been buying under $18. I mainly buy 90% US dimes, quarters, and halves between 11 and 13 x face. I always keep the Mercury dimes and Walking Liberty halves for sets/rolls for verrrrrrry long-term.
    If it spikes over $25, that’s when I’ll consider selling.

  89. NCM Collector says

    Unicorns poo silver.
    Unicorns are neat freaks and live very close to the edge of the flat earth so they can poo over the edge.
    Thus, silver is rare.

  90. Joe M. says

    Solid gold is what Unicorns poo,
    for me and you.
    For when it roams,
    it passes homes,
    eating and drinking the flora and fauna.
    And when it poos upon the grass, don’t worry,
    it’s gold not something stinky from the A@@

  91. data dave says

    Premium on the Ellis Island 5 ox bullion puck is $3.50 per ounce. $4.50 per ounce for singles. So about $22 per ounce at current prices. ASEs are $21 per ounce at same site. My records show this is pretty typical premium on issue day for the pucks.

    I’d be willing to trade a tube of 2012 ASEs for any 4 2012 ATB pucks and I’ll even through in an extra one for the premium difference.

  92. cagcrisp says

    @data dave, I bought my Tube of 2017 ASEs for ~ $18.90/oz. Big Difference than the price you’re quoting.

    You gotta know if/when to buy them and Not buy them when the price Spikes up…

  93. Louis Golino says

    Can the dollar keep going lower, without some reversal? And can gold keep above $1300 without a temporary reversal? To me these are the issues of the day worth discussing and sharing info. about.

    I don’t know, but I think after a day with a $20 gold spike, I would expect some profit taking. So maybe don’t buy today. But I also don’t see it going much below $1300 anytime soon given fundamentals, charts, etc. Not to mention Hurricane Harvey is likely to cause a dip in the economy, though also some growth with rebuilding, but that will take years. Many people won’t be going back to work for months I am hearing, so lot’s of economic downside, not to mention the human tragedy of course.

  94. John Q. Coinage says

    Data Dave- As to Munchkin looking @ the eclipse in Kentucy @ Ft. Know & him being in a bad light, he has no good light, this guy is a real swampbeast, profteer & slimey money manager, he offshored $$ for non-profits to help w/taxes !? Huh, I wonder why no one asked him IF they are legit non-profit why do they need to park their ca$h offshore? Huh, he dumped wfe #2 for his current trophy concubine, he foreclosed on many for < on Buck….and a creepy Travoltaeque toupee~…..drained right into theCabinet of Trump, the POTUS own Rogue's Gallery mostly……Price, Pruitt, all shills for big boys & industrial, banking or energy giants……and did Muchkin even mention the gold? He wants a cut I bet!

  95. says

    I noticed the bullion 5 oz Ellis Island sales to the AP’S is 29,500….well above the 20,000 for Douglas and Ozark

  96. Rob says

    For GOLD bugs
    A naïve question:is gold rising on uncertainty? – inflation seems in check. Is this an industrial / general metals rally?

  97. cagcrisp says

    @Rob, I’m Not a Gold Bug, however, I will answer your question.

    Today’s rise in PM’s is two fold in my opinion.

    1. The US dollar Continues to decline in value vs. a basket of currencies. Regardless on any other thing, IF the US dollar declines Gold has to increase because Gold is dollar denominated.

    2. With the drop in GDP because of Hurricane Harvey Wall Street believes the Fed will be Less Likely to raise interest rate. If interest rates stay low, Precious metals benefit…

  98. cagcrisp says

    NOW.. Precious metals are Up because North Korea fired a “projectile ” over a small portion of Japan.

    Dow futures down 100.

    Never ending cycle with North Korea…

  99. earthling says

    They need to set up “Trips” to NK for Big Game Hunters and/ or ex Military. I’ll bet business would be good.

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