Reverse Proof Gold Buffalo Sales Quickly Surpass Regular Proofs

gold-buffaloThere have been reports that sales of the United States Mint’s 2013 Reverse Proof Gold Buffalo are off to a strong start. Within the first 30 minutes of availability, orders were placed for 12,630 units, which already surpasses the most recently reported sales total of 12,297 for the regular proof version of the coin.

The US Mint began accepting orders for the reverse proof coins yesterday August 8, 2013 at 12:00 Noon ET. Sales will continue to be accepted during a four week ordering window ending on September 5, 2013 at 5:00 PM ET. Production will be determined based on customer demand during the specified ordering window.

Within the initial 30 minutes, the high order total may have been driven by one or more larger orders placed by dealers or mass marketers. In total, there were 2,641 orders placed for the 12,630 coins, which works out to a rather high average of 4.78 coins per order.

As we have seen with other special products offered during an ordering window, the torrent of initial orders may be followed by a quick decline in the pace of orders to a much slower but stable level until a final burst of last minute orders.

For the two previous sets offered during ordering windows, the first day sales ended up accounting for roughly half of the overall sales totals. For the 2012 San Francisco Silver Eagle Set, first day orders accounted for about 55% of the unadjusted final reported sales total. For the 2013 West Point Silver Eagle Set, the opening sales accounted for about 49% of the last reported sales total.

The US Mint has confirmed that a sales odometer will be placed on the product page for the 2013 Reverse Proof Gold Buffalo, which will allow for tracking and comparisons during the period of availability.

Update: According to the sales odometer posted on the product page, opening sales have reached 21,009.

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Comments

  1. Brad says

    Still no sales odometer yet, but maybe it will appear by this afternoon.

    This “reverse proof” anniversary coin should always be a good one for collectors, but definitely don’t let the 2013 standard proof coin slip through the cracks. I sense a new champion in the making, coming in under even the 2008 issue. It may be quietly declared “sold out” after selling around 15,000 units. And, even though it’s a standard proof coin, it also is technically an anniversary coin as well. I’m sure many future collectors would enjoy owning the informal “W two-coin anniversary set” for 2013. It appears likely that there will be no official such set issued by the Mint.

  2. high low silver says

    Passed the 2006 gold RP in one day!! WOW how I wish I could have got in on that 3 coin set !!!

  3. Fosnock says

    @Brad – Your point is well taken too bad I can not afford both, as another poster pointed out the 2013’s sleeper status is dependent on its lower mintage, which could be destroyed next year. As such I still have a few days to think about it but it looks like I will pulled the trigger and order the RP.

    Also I imagine HSN will have an 2 coin Buffalo Anniversary set with limited edition imitation wood box for $5K. The irony of that is if the 2013 is a sleeper and the RP is a hit that might not be a bargain but it might not be the worst buy you could make, maybe a little foolish but then that describes most people who buy coins from HSN

  4. Dan in Fla says

    Thanks Michael as the other post was getting long and wordy. I’m in for a two piece set if only they would offer such an item. I can make it up but its not the same. Anyway why not add the bullion Buffalo and make it a three coin set. Lets dream big.

  5. Samuel says

    the possible low mintage is the only thing attractive for the regular PF buffalo. u can buy the previous 06, 07, 09 ones with $100 above spot for the past yr.

  6. VARich says

    From Michael’s 1995 W Proof American Silver Eagle article on Coin Update –

    “The price for the five-coin anniversary set was the same $999 charged for the regular four-coin set as a way of thanking customers for their support of the program.”

    Whooh, where did those days go??? Heck, now days I feel appreciated just when my order ships within a month of the forecasted ship date! I see I was a decade late to coin collecting.., a day late and a dollar short!

  7. DCDave says

    2014 or 2015 may be the “key dates” for PM numismatic coins.
    Don’t get caught up in the mintages. Some, like the ’08 Buff and fractionals did well (maybe because of the fractionals, not the mintage?), some do well with high mintages (100k for UHR)…

  8. VARich says

    DCDave – have you been to the sales counter at the mint headquarters? If so, anything special about it or worth checking out? Thanks

  9. DCDave says

    Took kids to BPE and gift shop (fun to see money printed) don’t know about the sales counter @ headquarters.
    Have been to sales desk @ Union Station. Where is the sales counter @ headquarters?

  10. VARich says

    Right inside the foyer, I believe. It’s only open M-F and I was just wondering if they offered any unique items or accessibility to WP sets and the like. I’ll try to swing by next time I’m down there on a biz trip.

    I think kids get free coins at the AtB coin launches and you can get rolls for face value. Thinking about stopping in for the McHenry launch for kicks.., maybe ‘borrow’ a bus load full of kids. LOL

  11. VARich says

    Here’s something messed up!

    According to the press release, the mint at the American Numismatic Association’s (ANA) World’s Fair of Money August 13-17, 2013 will:

    The Mint will have these and other products available for sale:

    2013 American Buffalo Gold Reverse Proof Coin – Celebrates the 100-year anniversary of the original design appearing on the Type I Buffalo nickel.

    http://www.usmint.gov/pressroom/?action=press_release&id=1492

    For those of you that live near Chicago, you’re hooked up.., while the rest of us I’m sure feel a little slighted.

  12. VARich says

    Ha! So much for First In, First Out! This is just wrong!

    Happy Friday and we thank all you mint customers for your continued support!

  13. Addielise says

    Figures, I’ll be in Chicago but not until the following week.

    Just checked the website and it appears that the shipping date is now 9/27 for new orders. The order I placed yesterday afternoon that had an 8/23 date now shows 9/8. I’m going to guess that they sold 20k or so yesterday alone if the date has already been pushed back that far. Going to be interesting to see the dynamics of this mint to demand coin compared to the ASE sets. The potential for a changing price tag and the fact that there won’t be any flood of orders pouring in during the last days due to the much higher price should make this a different animal.

  14. e says

    do you know that the boxes for the coins are not made in america,the mint tells me that my west point silver eagle set is on backorder because they are waiting for the boxes to ship from over seas.

  15. hawkster says

    I will readily admit that, in regard to gold coins, I am only interested in those with the iconic images, such as Lady Liberty, the bald eagle, native American, and the buffalo. This eliminates any interest for me in the FS series, as well as most modern gold commemoratives.

    The reverse proof gold buffalo certainly has those iconic images. Call me “old school”, but the classic images do it for me.

  16. KEITHSTER says

    Counter’s up 21,009 and counting still time to cancel but ood luck all anyway’s:>

  17. gary says

    hawkster… You should regard yourself as a true collector then. Collecting coins by theme is an excellent way to build a really nice set of outstanding designs. Of the new mint issues I have only collected the American platinum eagle series but I had to get on board with the America the Beautiful coins because of the truly outstanding designs and sculpting of the varied landscapes are so beautiful to behold. Even the one I thought a mundane location, Perry’s Victory, has a nobleness to it that I had not expected. I collect the ATB’s in mint only packaging and of course 1 set of the silver ATB proof quarters.
    With platinums sharp increase in price it looks poised to possibly jump up in price 2 pricing tiers next Wednesday so I’ll probably buy at the current 1,800 instead of 1,900 come Wednesday. The Reverse Proof Buffalo will have a very unique finish and fantastic look and should see a very high mintage level with only a month to buy it.

  18. Fosnock says

    @KEITHSTER – Thank you I was going to compare the sale to the UHR but then remembered their was household limit on that coin

    @VARich – They are selling the RP at the same price as the proof coin, and giving free shipping. That is not a bad deal.

  19. high low silver says

    Come on flippers let’s hear it….WAH WAH WAH!! THAT’S NOT FAIR !! lol Serious.. I think this will go up $50 next week.

  20. simon says

    The $ 50 uptick is no big deal – it is 1 Oz of multiple – 9 Au. I doubt there is a single mint of any country that would offer such a unique coin for this comparatively low price. Just look at Perth etc mints. They want $1200+ just for half ounce coins.

  21. Larry says

    Thanks for pointing out the RP buff will be on sale at the ANA show! I am going to the show next Friday. I really want to buy the RP buff then, but will be watching Tuesday to see what gold does. Will be hard to decide, Don’t want to spend another 50 bucks, but I really would like to buy it there. Hopefully they have some left by Friday.

  22. Anon says

    @Fosnock – the UHR had a household limit for a while, but towards the end there was no limit.

  23. high low silver says

    Larry: If I was going, I would pick one up. My problem with Mint is quality and the waiting for exchanges.

  24. Hidalgo says

    The counter for the reverse proof gold buffalo coin is now posted.

    Total units ordered as of this writing: 21,009 (!!!).

    Hmmmm, compared to the regular proof gold buffalo coin, I question if this will be rare….

  25. high low silver says

    Hidalgo: Keep an eye on the Proof, and let us know when it goes on backorder….

  26. joe says

    Out of curiosity, I wonder how the ANA show will impact first strike/early release designations by TPGs? I expect the large TPGs will be on hand to scarf up as many as they can get for the premium…

  27. Ikaika says

    @ Hidalgo

    Maybe not as rare as some of the other proof buffalos, but a unique and beautiful coin (That is if our mint doesn’t decide to issue other special sets with it). Then, it will be just a beautiful coin 🙂

  28. Fosnock says

    @Anon – That is correct but I wanted to compare initial sales to the RP initial sales to try to estimate a possible total mintage. But the household limit would not allow me to compare apples to apple as initial demand for the UHR could have been much higher without the household limit. Comparing the final mintage between this coin and the UHR should be a good indicator if this coin would be a winner in the long term…assuming it is a one year coin.

  29. Hidalgo says

    @Ikaika – it’s clear that the US Mint has the technology and equipment to make a variety of reverse proof and “enhanced” coins. We’ve seen reverse proof so far with the American Silver Eagle, American Gold Eagle, and now, the gold Buffalo coin. It’s said that there will be a reverse proof Kennedy half in 2014.

    I’m sure that the possibilities won’t stop there for “special editions.”

  30. Ikaika says

    @ Hidalgo

    Yes, and we must not forget the RP Platinum Eagle too. I predict sales in the 50K range and 21K in the first day of sales should put the numbers in this ball park IMHO.

  31. high low silver says

    joe: All the big boys will be there (including AMPEX PROVIDENT ect)….Don’t know if they will grade them… In Baltimore the TGPs don’t give FS and ER or any special designations. But that could change….I’m sure the Mint will sell out the stock they bring with them.

  32. Zaz says

    The moving ship dates are a fun game! Yesterday started off with 9/8 them “moved” up to 8/23. Today it’s 9/27. Still looks like 11/01 is the best ETA for us little folks. The 8/23 ship date is for the big boys that bought 100+ coins as they’ll have to be accommodated first. They’ll have theirs graded and televised on HSN before you’ll even get your “paltry” $1,640.00 charged on to your CC. Just sayin’, you ain’t got the deep pockets like the big boys don’t even bother trying to compete for first strike, etc. This is a huge deal for the mass marketers like MCM sending out an alert email to get on their waiting list. Just be happy you’ll get your one or two coins (eventually.) Still 80%+ will be owned by them and they will no doubt manipulate this coin to the $2,500-$3,000 in a few months.

  33. Dan in Fla says

    Thanks for the tip on Platinum going up two tiers next week. With so many irons in the fire I almost forgot to place an order for a Platinum Eagle before its too late. There’s too many people buying this coin for it to go to $2500-$3000. any time soon.

  34. fmtransmitter says

    No movement on my expected ship date of 8/9 for the WP set. I had to jump thru hoops to make sure funds were available if this shipped today LIKE THE SITE said it would. Feeling the pain of all the WP buyers.

  35. Boz says

    I always go for the last strike pedigree in the special later than thou holder. Gold will also be back to $35 an ounce in September.

  36. fmtransmitter says

    I just called the mint and she said she doesn’t know why it said 8/9 on the website, my order is not slated to ship until 9/30!!!!! WOW!

  37. Brad says

    Here’s a little food for thought. Has the Mint actually explicitly stated that the Reverse Proof Buffalo coin will not be offered in any other product this year? Or, is there a possibility (say if there are very many order cancellations after the 4-week window closes and those coins have already been struck) that they may package up some of them with a standard proof coin and sell them as a 2-coin “100th Anniversary” set sometime between Thanksgiving and Christmas? That set would have an undisclosed maximum mintage limit of the number of remaining unsold reverse proofs. The increased mintage could effectively destroy the collectibility of the individual standard proof coin (and to a lesser extent the individual reverse proof), and shift the value to the 2-coin set (which may end up being limited to 5,000 sets or less). Sometimes the rarest PACKAGING option gets all the respect. Coins from the sets submitted in sealed shipping boxes would receive special grading designations noting them as “100th Anniversary Set” coins, making them the rarest ones available.

    Do you think the outcry from such a practice would make the Mint scrap the idea? You know they’ve already thought of it, since that was the way the idea was originally presented in those surveys way back when.

  38. fmtransmitter says

    @Zaz: I got that email. Said “sit back and relax”, that comment made me chuckle..

  39. fmtransmitter says

    @Brad, I can for sure see that happening just the LESPS,different packaging IS the wave of the future for the Mint to sell their overstock. Look at the new Theodore offering for children. Give us $10 for $1 and pretty packaging.

  40. fmtransmitter says

    I have said it before and will again, it is just a matter of time before we see China selling one off’s of the Mint packaging for limited edition packaging sets. There is no other way to tell if the plastic is from the Mint or elsewhere unless the Mint starts sealing the items up. It is going to happen eventually or COA’s IMO. I think the new COA’s should be printed on BEP paper like the dollar bill. Throw in a special dollar with a COA number on it for good measure and security. Wishful thinking…

  41. simon says

    Just wait till you see the price of the Dime in the 2012 LESPS set graded PCGS70 Mr Hall must be having laughing fits over the success of these cheap shenanigans.

  42. Samuel says

    if they will make a 2-coin set, the box is a big deal. u can’t use plastic to hold these 2 expensive coins. so, i wont expect the mint to do that.

  43. Ikaika says

    @ fmtransmitter and simon

    Doesn’t seem anyone is actually buying these for that price. The sellers can ask whatever price they want, but its up to the buyer to decide. Just like the HSN 🙂

  44. high low silver says

    Maybe he just doesn’t want to pay Ca. State sales tax for everything he buys he can tell the state its for his business.

  45. hawkster says

    Boz,

    You go for the “last strike” pedigree on graded coins? Don’t give the TV coin hucksters any ideas. They would convince viewers that such a designation is like having the last Corvette rolled off the 1953 assembly line.

  46. fmtransmitter says

    I agree Steve: Lookie here over on the HSN (High Sucker Numismatist)…
    $300 for the 5 quarter set in the “special” Chinese box. Ever hear him rant and rave about those darn boxes. He is so proud of the boxes! He ALWAYS says what they sell the boxes for w/out the coins as a pitch to make it sound like what a great deal you are getting.

    http://www.hsn.com/products/2013-pr70-anacs-fdoi-silver-national-parks-quarters/7096077?sz=13&sf=CO0105&ac=INCCO0105&cm_mmc=Shopping%20Engine-_-Shopping-_-Coins%20and%20Collectibles-_-7096077&ac=shopping&mr:referralID=17320a86-015d-11e3-a969-001b2166c2c0

  47. fmtransmitter says

    If you watch the video of his presentation he actually talks about how he was laughed at for starting the “First day of issue” designation and then grabs his neck. Body language is everything when someone is lying.

  48. Dustyroads says

    The 2012 LESPS, $825. The person who bought it will someday get a reality check, hopefully they will be wiser with their future purchases.

  49. fmtransmitter says

    @Dustyroads: I looked at that auction, it just shows the auction ended, it does NOT show a buyer or bidding activity. If someone paid for it it would show the bidding activity or the details if it was bought with BUY IT NOW option so I believe it was another attempt at a seller trying to over price an item and hope someone will pay that. We need to be looking at ended auctions with bidding history to confirm what the real market is willing to pay for such items. I suspect it would be no where near those amounts.

  50. VARich says

    Since we’re on the topic of packaging, I’ve seen where 08-08-08 sets have been graded, though why would you really slab it? It’s as if the packaging is the one thing that makes the AGE and Buff halves unique and distinguishable from their counterparts, like the LESPS.

    Brad – you say – Sometimes the rarest PACKAGING option gets all the respect. Is this a case where the future value of the set will reside with the packaging? What do you all think?

  51. billrod says

    Hawkster you said:

    “I will readily admit that, in regard to gold coins, I am only interested in those with the iconic images, such as Lady Liberty, the bald eagle, native American, and the buffalo. This eliminates any interest for me in the FS series, as well as most modern gold commemoratives”.

    I suggest you take a look at the FS Liberty Subset (UNC and PF) for some iconic images of Lady Liberty. The Seated Liberty design is awesome and is the only time it has been used on a gold coin – UNC and PF. Also the rendition of Liberty with the flag on the SSB dollar is stunning.

  52. says

    fm…on your comment to Dustyroads….are you referring to the link I put up on the LESPS that SOLD for $825. If so, look again…it clearly states in the gray shaded area in the middle of the page “Sold for $825”.

  53. says

    fm…also. if you really want to see evidence that this auction sold for $825, click on the sellers ebay user id and then on his feedback. You will see this on August 6 for this auction that ended on July 31:

    Great Seller, Clean Coin Set with Fast Free Shipping, AAA+++ Buyer: Member id kclukow ( Feedback Score Of 539) Aug-06-13 23:32
    2012-RARE PCGS FIRST STRIKE PR69DCAM PROOF LIMITED EDITION PR SET (#181186948598) US $825.00 View Item 2012-RARE PCGS FIRST STRIKE PR69DCAM PROOF LIMITED EDITION PR SET

  54. stephen m says

    21,009 RP Buff’s sold so far may be a high number if one wants to look at past % of opening sales and total units ordered. With gold down a $50.00 notch and the metal now going higher would make the big boys and little people buy before the threat of an increase in gold next week. I don’t think this coin will see 42k sold but it does appear to be a hot item.

  55. fmtransmitter says

    @Steve: I see what you mean, yes I see that now. My mistake because I was looking and looking and I see where you are talking about now. Again, my mistake. You are correct, someone actually paid $825 for this set. Wow, wish I could find those kind of buyers but then again I wish I wouldn’t because I would never try do that to another collector. Looks as if it was a “BUY IT NOW” style offering correct?

  56. fmtransmitter says

    I had another thought about these LESPS’s, because they are being offered again and as we have researched these it seems very FEW have made the 70 grade. Is this because these were returned coins for not meeting the grade and the Mint had to repackage them to get rid of them in a different way? Since the limited packaging may mean collectors would be less likely to open the set and send them in for grading? Looks as if some have done just that, removed them from packaging and had them graded. I wonder if the graded sets are being sold WITH the OGP? I am for sure in for this years offering again if this is the case. Seems a no brainer.

  57. fmtransmitter says

    For instance, keep sending this set in to the TPG’s for grading and the LESPS designation, receive your coins back graded along with your OGP. Simply refill the OGP with more coins, send them in that OGP for the same desg. so on and so forth. No way to tell if these were actually from the set or not as you could continue to use the same OGP. Hopefully the TPG’s are requiring a sealed Mint shipping box in order to achieve this designation if these are selling for such premiums over original Mint cost. Interesting.

  58. Samuel says

    the seller listed an 69 set for $700.
    BTW, do u need to submit the coins in the original packaging in this case?

  59. fmtransmitter says

    Thanks hi low, have found this an interesting topic, may be why ANACS is still using this designation of “FIRST DAY OF ISSUE”. Again we can thank the HSN guy for mis leading new collectors even more. AND he is proud of this fact.

  60. gary says

    The notion of “First Strike” “First Day of Issue” etc. has for years been discussed and it has long been proven that the U.S. Mint does not actually mint, package and ship any product in a strict chronological order. The “First Strike” designation, in numismatic terms, was originally to define a circulation issue coin for which dies are only changed when they are really worn. A coin struck from a freshly introduced new die (with a normal good striking) would contain at least 99% of the details of the die. Proof coins are a method of manufacture in which the dies are changed considerably more often to get an issue of proof coins that more or less uniformly shows all of the details of the design. Even if serial numbers were laser inscribed on say the edge of the coin, THAT would have no relevance unless each coin is dutifully handled in a strict process of chronology. Despite all previous explanations as to the misnomer of “First Strike”, the buy-in to the myth is too strong so the third party graders perpetuate the myth and I don’t blame them at all for doing so because the coins sell for more money with the meaningless description.

  61. fmtransmitter says

    Here is what PCGS says about the LESPS designation.
    PR-S Limited Edition Silver Proof Sets
    (10C, El Yunque 25C, Chaco Culture 25C, Acadia 25C, HI Volcanoes 25C, Denali 25C, 50C, $1 American Silver Eagle)
    (“Limited Edition PR Set” designation only available through the Bulk Department)

  62. fmtransmitter says

    In order to have this designation PCGS charges $18!! Wow, maybe because they have to pay for the out of court settlement.

  63. high low silver says

    Fm: Look for a first strike ngc graded after 2007….. if you find one its a fake.lol

  64. fmtransmitter says

    Yes I saw that, NGC stopped and only uses Early Release now. Had to pay a pretty penny in that court settlement.

  65. fmtransmitter says

    I just hope all new collectors will get educated on this practice and not waste their hard earned money on something that means nothing when they go to cash in or re-sell their coins.

  66. high low silver says

    I got caught up with the 2006 unc 20th ann gold set graded PCGS FS and remember The lawsuit well (That was the basis of the lawsuit) NGC did the right thing, PCGS settled out of court and continues this practice with FS. If you buy these fake FS sets Ill be your witness!! lol

  67. joe says

    The whole point of the lawsuit was that the term “First Strike” was misleading. However, PCGS continues to the practice to this day; NGC and others quit the practice on their own. Kind of shows PCGS in their true light…the HSN light.

  68. T1browserman says

    Surely a no brainer here and would love to add this to collection however must pass and focus on Ag presentations. my gut tells me that artificially inflated Dow will depress pm prices in the coming months.

    p.s. My 2 coin silver set is still expected to ship 7/19/13….what’s wrong with the dating?

    let you know once in the TWILIGHT ZONE!!!!

  69. hawkster says

    billrod,

    Yes, four of the First Spouse coins (sellers refer to them as the FS Liberty Subset) do contain Liberty images. However, three of the reverse sides of these coins have presidential images, while the Jefferson coin notes his achievements.
    While the obverses do have nice Liberty images, I am not interested in having presidential images and achievements on the gold coins that I collect. Did I clarify this enough for you?

  70. Boz says

    Yes i do have the last 53 Corvette. I built it in 2012 from various parts. It is an unmolested rust free original black plate California one owner always garaged original paint numbers matching damage never damaged car, etc. came out of an old supermarket where it was blocked in by an original barn find picker along with Geraldo’s safe and the Star of the Ocean diamond necklace from the Titanic.

    It is amazing the horse hockey that peoplefall for.

  71. gary says

    I believe that “the money” is parked in plays within the stock market. There are some genuine innovative start-ups and technology such as 3D printing, which will revolutionize manufacturing, eventually… just not as the current over-hyped talk about it professes that it will. Once interest rates do rise, as they must, with the Quantitative easing phased out, a lot of money will shift back to paper that has solid (key word, solid) interest bearing appreciation. Gold, which has already lost it’s haven status as a measure of value, does not appreciate and to that the cost of long term storage too. Gold will continue to make what is referred to as “dead cat bounces” up in value but will probably end up around $1,000 oz. soon as governments and large incrementally shed their continued exposure of loss in the metal.Just my opinion here.

  72. fmtransmitter says

    Ha, yes gary, we all have read about your $1000 an ounce gold prediction SEVERAL times. Based on these gold buffalos being sold for over $2k some years ago I assume that many collectors are thrilled with a price drop and the ability to re coup said losses in previous years and keep their collections up to date.

  73. fmtransmitter says

    This hobby IMHO is a treasure hunt with losers and winners just like your stock market or any other investment. It is a hobby first IMO and what what folks want to spend their paper dollars on is their choice. If you can spend them on something that may give you most or all or even more than you spent in the first place then it could be called an investment. I just happen to enjoy looking at Government minted coins and collecting them for future generations but with the knowledge if I need some emergency cash I will knowingly have no trouble obtaining said cash.

  74. Ray says

    @Gary, this 3D printing of metal is very very interesting. will be very very interesting if they can bring this to market cheaply.

    my us mint purchases are almost done for the year. ill be actually very excited for the Fort McHenry coin, and i’ll be buying a few of the mt rushmore (taking a vaca there next month). other than that, i’ll be interested to see when/what sells out from here on out.

    its been a great first year of collecting coins. thx for this great site, and thx to everyone for all of the informative comments. you guys rock!!

  75. fmtransmitter says

    Gold will never lose its status as a measure of value. That is pure speculation driven by Governments that use fiat to stay afloat. Just look at Hugo Chavez and the parade he threw to bring the “measure of value” back to his Country.

  76. gary says

    fm, yes the current price of gold is attractive to buy numismatic gold coins. If I were a collector of gold that is exactly what I would do. Since I only collect the proof platinum coins I bought them at issue price or on the secondary market when the price of platinum would take a meaningful decline in value. During gold’s run up to near 1,900 I took advantage of platinum’s historical abnormality of being priced cheaper than gold. At one point gold was worth 110% more than gold!. Platinum has quickly reversed that historical low ( by some 22%) and now gold is 88% the value of platinum. Falling out of favor, I took advantage of cheap platinum as low mintage proofs were commonly available for 10-15% over melt values. I do believe that silver is very very cheap as it has taken quite a hit from gold’s decline. It’s a great opportunity right now to buy numismatic silver as I think silver will at least revisit $30 an ounce by the end of 2014. Again, I have no crystal ball, just 52 years of coin collecting experience, some experience gained through hard-knocks, i.e.: bad purchasing decisions, etc. As long as a collector collects the coins for enjoyment for art and history you can’t beat coins for that.

  77. CW says

    I just got my order in. It says 9/27 now. This will be a nice birthday present. I am curious how many people did like I did and unloaded an older Buffalo proof to buy the RP? I am hoping for a flood so i can buy mine back cheap. Figured it was a smart trade.

  78. joe says

    It’s interesting that I hear people say that gold is overpriced right now; however, I don’t hear the same people talk about the inflated stock market or inflated fiat currency. Furthermore, they say nothing of the enormous debt the FED is perpetrating upon us through QE to infinity.

    So…a couple questions for the gold bears:

    1) Do you believe that QE impacts economic and the value of fiat currency, stocks, bonds, etc.?

    2) Can you provide more information on what is funding the stock market since unemployment is at its highest since the great depression and many that do have jobs only have part-time jobs? Additionally, most companies are not generating profits. Where is the money coming from (actually, a rhetorical question since we all know it’s from the government’s printing presses)?

    Yes…it will always be the case that the gold-to-fiat currency ratio will bounce around, but since gold’s historic rise over the past decade there has been much manipulation of gold in the downward direction and much manipulation of fiat currency in the upward direction (please provide information to the converse). A day is coming when the music stops and the psychology that is giving value to debt paper (dollars) is going to end. Additionally, your common shares of stock will instantly become worthless. Perhaps your bonds may retain some value, although I wouldn’t bet on it based on what Obama did with the GM bondholders.

    In short, these are the days when I would rather have my funds in hard currency (PMs) or real assets than in any form of paper (fiat, stock, bonds, etc.). I’m sure those who experienced the Weimar Republic in Germany back in the 1920s would agree if they were here…

  79. hawkster says

    fm,

    Couldn’t agree with you more about the hobby being a treasure hunt. I’m sure we can all relate to buying Mint numismatic products (coins and coin sets) that have done well after -market, and that have bombed on the secondary market. I think the biggest loser for me was the two Westward Journey Coin and Pouch Sets I bought from the Mint. The issue price of the sets was $120. The secondary market prices for these dropped off the table in a hurry. It seems that many of the modern commemoratives have not done well after- market. For that reason, I pass on most modern commems. Fortunately, most of the Mint offerings that I have bought have done O.K.

    I would think that most serious collectors have shifted more toward the Mint’s silver and gold offerings. But, there are no guarantees, and everyone can relate some “horror” stories in regard to coins they have purchased over the year

  80. Dan in Fla says

    Has anybody heard of the type of cover the U S Mint has created for the reverse Proof Buffalo packaging to differentiate it from the regular Proof Buffalo? I thought they were going to change the box but it appears to be the same box.

  81. simon says

    Dan : the boxes do appear to be the same. There may be a motif with a caption on the front to indicate that the coin is an “Anniversary Issue, RP, etc..” The COA is bound to be very interesting for this coin.

    I’m planning on pairing my purchase with the three 1913 issues of the nickel in a wooden frame which I will make. I will select graded issues of the nickels, crack open the slabs, and pull out the coins for airtites. I’ll probably do it in oak but still deciding how I want it to look. Just wondering if anyone is thinking along these lines?

    Joe : There are no precise answers to your questions. Once the QE funds are released they must be spent as an investment which generates returns. In the past the banks have simply sat on the funds (recall BA in particular).
    The possibility that the funds are invested in stocks, bonds, precious metals, real estate, development, infrastructure, new technology, etc is the call of many executives downstream, and is the subject of dailies and weeklies in the business media world. I doubt any one person, including the Fed chair has all the info at his/her finger tips. But the trends are well studied and one can draw some conclusion and possibly solace from them. PM prices were driven by the investment / futures component perhaps a bit more than physical sales. India, the worlds largest gold market has been struggling to rein in PM purchases which have to be made in $US, since they see this as a significant factor in the rapid depreciation of their currency.

  82. thePhelps says

    @hawkster – the issue you had with the Coin and Pouch set was the discovery that some of the pouches were in fact not made by Native Americans. I read some time ago that you can make good money if you have a set that was verified as authentic. It didn’t help that the quality of the pouches was pretty inconsistent either…

  83. fmtransmitter says

    Heck, if you have one from that Ohio tribe you can send just the pouch in and get $90 back!

  84. fmtransmitter says

    @simon: That sounds like a great idea for display. I bet you get a real sense of satisfaction knowing you made the display yourself as well. Maybe when it is done you ask Michael if he wouldn’t mind posting a photo of it for us. I know I would like to see it displayed in such a way.

  85. hawkster says

    the Phelps,

    Both of my Coin and Pouch Sets were made by Wynona Medicine of the Standing Sioux Nation in South Dakota. She, along with her husband, Errol, pumped out a large number of pouches. Compared to the ornate beading found on pouches made by other crafters, hers’ are plain deerskin with border beading. If you check the completed items on Ebay, her pouches only bring about $55.-$60.
    You would have thought that the Mint fulfillment center would have sent me pouches made by different crafters. My mistake is that I should have initially returned one, since, other than the color of the beads, they are duplicates.

  86. Mark in Florida says

    When an Ebay seller has a quantity of something, it is worth his cost to have a friend buy it at an inflated price, say $825. Then, when he lists the next one, people who get it for $700 or $725 will think they got a bargain even if it still overpriced. There is a lot of hype in coin collecting. That’s why I stick with bullion and proofs in OGP. No BS labels or slabs.

  87. Dustyroads says

    Mark in Florida~If the Ebay seller did rig the auction, it cost the seller roughly $110.00 in fees from Ebay to do so.

  88. Jack says

    @Dusty, No it didn’t, because the seller is also in control of the account that bought the item, so he can just open a cancel transaction case and then go on the other account he used to buy it and agree, and he gets the fees refunded.

  89. says

    Guys…all this talk about people having a friend pay an inflated price for someting on ebay, canceling the transaction and hoping someone else see’s another auction with a price a little bit lower price and thinks “hey, I’m getting a bargain” is bulls**T.

    If you see an item for sale on ebay and you can not determine whether or not it is a fair price (except by looking at what someone else paid for it) then you should not purchase that item. Don’t be sucked in…it’s real simple. Know the value of what you are buying.

  90. fmtransmitter says

    I do know first hand eBay has security measures in place and can track IP addresses and several other measures to prevent shell bidding and the such. One way I look to see if shell bidding is taking place is buy clicking on the other bidders bidding activity. It will give a breakdown of what % said bidder has bid items from said seller. If you see 100% that is huge red flag and I have reported bidders for suspect bidding activities due to this ability to see.

  91. fmtransmitter says

    @simon, glad you have started making your display. I have seen wooden displays sell for ridiculous amounts. You may have a good side business if you are good with wood. I have seen several hand made display items made by people and not machines. Local hand crafted and the such. Better than these Chinese boxes we have been waiting on for months used for our American coinage IMO. I still think the big dealers got their coins early due to passing on the boxes IMO. There is a separate phone number to call for large dealers on the Mint’s contact number list.

  92. fmtransmitter says

    Here you can buy a 2,615 pound of circulating coins OR become a direct bulk buyer.

    Don’t know too many people in the circulating program but for the Numismatic program it makes sense so you have direct access and first dips for TPG’s.

    http://www.usmint.gov/bulk/

  93. Mark in Florida says

    This week I asked my bank to get me a box of $500 in half dollars. I’ll see if I have any luck with a few silver ones like some of you guys. It’s like playing the lottery, but I can spend the whole $500 if there are no silver ones. But just 5 or 10 would be a better return than a couple years of interest in the bank.

  94. Cryson says

    Everyone talking about labels, and eBay are just spamming this thread for no reason. The main point is the RP Buffalo, let’s actually discuss the RP Buffalo, we all know how eBay works, why do we need education that we all already have. Anyways, I think the RP Buffalo looks great, definitely a great choice for a 100th anniversary coins. I will definitely be getting one to add to my collection, hopefully this will be a repeat of the 2009 UHR, this has to attract a ton of older numismatist as they probably love this coin as well, hopefully that will push demand.

  95. fmtransmitter says

    Yes Mark in Florida, you may have some good luck. The word has been spreading about this so I hear it is getting harder and harder. I got a 64 quarter in a roll a cpl weeks ago. I always get rolls of quarters looking for ATB’s and silver.

  96. Boz says

    You are lucky to have a banker that will help you. Ours just say they can’t do that and that dollar and half dollar coins and $2 bills were discontinued 50 years ago.

  97. fosnock says

    @joe – With all due respect this is a coin collecting blog, have you ever heard of the term “don’t feed the troll” (DFTT), if not please DFTT

    For the record Gary has contradicted an early post were he states that in this environment it is not attractive to buy numismatic coins and you should hold out a few months (for lower prices) now he saying it is an attractive buy…anyway I’m a hypocrite as I just feed the troll but let me stop now.

  98. John Moore says

    Budget will not allow me to buy.On a second note my WP second day order is scheduled to deliver Monday .

  99. joe says

    I haven’t received my WP set yet either! It showed to be shipped on August 9th, but nothing yet…

  100. ClevelandRocks says

    $100 price increase for the proof platinum likely Wednesday, but can’t get too excited about it, even knowing mintage may be a new low. Any thoughts?

  101. wdg5 says

    Yippeeeee! my WP set FINALLY shipped! Hope the RP Buff does not disappoint with order # 4192XXXX, I intend to grade both products.

  102. DCDave says

    @ Cleveland: 2008 1/2 oz platinum total mintage: 2253
    Decent premium, but not as much as you would think.
    Low mintage with low demand blunts premiums a la FS.

  103. wdg5 says

    Also got my Great Basin Puck yesterday in the OGP. I love this one particularly, though the White Mountain is my all time fav. Any thoughts about grading the Pucks (all Proof products from the mint BTW)?????

  104. gary says

    @Cleveland As a collector of the platinum eagles (since their inception in 1997) I believe that the 2013 Platinum Eagle will not approach a new low for the series. That record low is the 2008-W $100 proof at 4,769 mintage or the Burnished 2008-W at 2,876. Given the Mint’s practice now of continuing to sell products well beyond a calendar year of 365 days from 1st date of release, it will probably be an 8 to 12K final mintage. Originally I collected the 1997-2008 series in 1/10 ounce and 1/2 oz proof and burnished finishes, skipped the 2007 reverse proof because that offering was so popular and high mintage that they are so common that they are bullion pieces. The (usually) high price of platinum, plus the generally unappreciated value of the metal to U.S. collectors more or less has resulted in a true collector support and following of U.S. platinum (numismatic) coins to foreign collectors of world coins. It came as no surprise to me that the Mint’s study of the feasibility of a palladium bullion issue concluded that there would be no sustained demand for it as palladium is an even less understood metal in the U.S.

  105. Brad says

    Anon,

    I would guess that the final sales total on that one would be similar to last year, possibly a bit lower. How much lower it’s hard to say. I’m pretty sure that both coins briefly displayed “backorder” status with sales levels around 4,500 units. The Mint may have struck the same size second batch as last year, figuring on similar sales trends. It is possible though that the Mint may have anticipated reduced demand due to competition from the RP Buffalo, so the second batch of Burnished Eagles may have been smaller this year. And, there may not be a third batch.

    Still, I won’t bother to gamble on it though. I even cancelled the Reverse Proof Buffalo I ordered in the opening minutes as well. I’m still a little worried about the coin showing up paired with a standard proof coin in a special “American Buffalo 100th Anniversary Gold 2-Coin Set” later this year. I sure would like confirmation from the Mint that the 4-week window will be the ONLY time this coin is offered! Without the confirmation, I guess I’ll pass on this one. It won’t be a repeat of the UHR when it comes to secondary market success, and I don’t want to sit on that much money long-term. I don’t care THAT much about having it in my own collection, but would rather sell it to get money for other coins I’m more interested in. That may not be so easy, though. The raw UHR coins are bringing several hundred dollars lower now than they were in early 2012, when they were going for upwards of $3,000. So, bullion value DOES have an influence on even the most popular collector coins to a certain extent.

  106. ABC says

    I don’t believe there will be a 2-coin gold buffalo set later this year even if there’s a lot of cancellations. Who would be able to afford such a set? Probably just dealers. Most likely, if there’s a ton of cancellations, they would probably offer it in a “Last Chance” sale.

  107. VA Bob says

    If the price of gold were dropping, we would surely be seeing those cancel boxes disappearing on the RP real quick.

  108. Anon says

    @Brad

    I missed out on the 2012 burnished. It’s doing pretty well in secondary. I think the RP will do well. Not as well as the UHR, but I think it will do well in the secondary.

  109. Stevedoc22 says

    I feel good about this coin’s prospects because it is an iconic design and this is the first reverse proof of a gold coin. I believe it will do well on the secondary market – perhaps not as well as the UHR, which is a unique coin, because we don’t know if reverse proofs will be offered every year, but it should be an attractive addition to the collection.

  110. ABC says

    @Stevedoc22

    This isn’t the first reverse proof gold coin.
    They made a reverse proof gold American Eagle in 2006.

  111. joe says

    Two ounces of gold in a special 100th anniversary set? Very unlikely as it would be too expensive for almost everybody.

    I think this (the RP coin) is it for celebrating the 100th anniversary of the buffalo…and in my mind the Mint did a good enough job coming up with it to celebrate. A special set would be overkill…

  112. says

    The Coin Vault has these in stock and graded already. Mine is on backorder till 9/8. I was within the first minute or ordering. Hmmmmmm

  113. Chuck says

    Dee says:

    August 13, 2013 at 10:03 am

    “The Coin Vault has these in stock and graded already. Mine is on backorder till 9/8. I was within the first minute or ordering. Hmmmmmm”

    And the beat goes on.

  114. Franco Z says

    The Coin Vault does NOT have them in stock; expect to ship 9/27/2013; how can this place advertise FS if items won’t ship from mint until > month after release ?; to qualify as a FS item it needs to be within 30 days of the US Mint’s release (in this case 8/8/2013); I guess FS won’t happen this time around;

  115. says

    2013 W Gold Buffalo PCGS Rev PR70 FS 100th Ann. Black Diamond Label
    Item# 340278
    In Stock!
    $2,499.95

    Guess I read it wrong.

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