San Francisco Silver Eagle Set Conclude at 251,302

According to the sales odometer placed on the product page of the 2012 San Francisco Silver Eagle Set, the total units ordered reached 251,302 through the conclusion of sales yesterday July 5, 2012 at 5:00 PM.

Despite reaching nearly 250,000 with just a few days to go, sales ended up barely passing this mark. Early in the sales cycle, collectors seemed to be expecting a last minute surge of sales to take place before the conclusion of the offering. Instead, the final update to the sales odometer registered only an additional 546 units sold, which was the lowest daily movement during the four week ordering window.

Many collectors may have been watching specifically for the 250,000 order level since this was the maximum mintage established for the 20th Anniversary Silver Eagle Set released in 2006. As the cumulative sales total approached this number, some collectors may have cancelled extra orders and some fence-sitters may have opted not to place orders.

The complete run down of daily sales figures is included below. The first number column indicates the change from the previous daily total, while the second column indicates the cumulative sales total.

Increase Total Sales
June 8, 2012 85,341
June 11, 2012 29,718 115,059
June 12, 2012 6,245 121,304
June 13, 2012 4,067 125,371
June 14, 2012 3,169 128,540
June 15, 2012 2,972 131,512
June 18, 2012 3,956 135,468
June 19, 2012 1,210 136,678
June 20, 2012 2,185 138,863
June 21, 2012 3,029 141,892
June 22, 2012 3,281 145,173
June 25, 2012 6,874 152,047
June 26, 2012 4,522 156,569
June 27, 2012 6,012 162,581
June 28, 2012 4,255 166,836
June 29, 2012 8,752 175,588
July 2, 2012 25,471 201,059
July 3, 2012 16,292 217,351
July 4, 2012 27,780 245,131
July 5, 2012 5,607 250,738
July 6, 2012 564 251,302

A few words of caution when considering the final cumulative sales number, the US Mint heavily disclaims the data that has been provided on the sales odometer, stating that it is “for informational purposes only and should not be construed to represent accepted orders of actual sales figures.”

It is possible that the number could decline based on additional order cancellations initiated by the customer, system generated order cancellations due to expired or invalid billing information, or order returns once the sets begin shipping. The number may also increase if the US Mint continues to add orders sent by mail that are postmarked before the sales deadline. The US Mint recently distributed their 2012 Summer Catalog by mail, which included an order form and envelope. The page showcasing the San Francisco Silver Eagle Set did mention the limited ordering window, but didn’t provide any specific information with regards to how the deadline would work for mail orders.

To the extent possible, I will try to obtain updated information from the US Mint and provide this to readers.

The US Mint indicates that shipping for the 2012 San Francisco Silver Eagle Set will begin “on or about July 27, 2012” with fulfillment taking place on a first in, first served basis. A wide window of July 27 to mid-October 2012 is provided as a time frame for fulfillment of all orders.

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Comments

  1. Tom says

    Final number will probably drop a bit further as
    problems arise with peoples charge cards etc.

  2. Don says

    No matter what your intentions were of obtaining this set(s)– collecting, investing, or selling on the secondary market, you have to be happy with the last mintage figure provided by the mint today (friday).
    At a little over 250,000, the approximate mintage is a figure that should make everyone happy. I think the Mint did a nice job with this offering.

  3. VA Dave says

    @ Don,
    Concur – good job US Mint! I agree with Tom, the final number will probably drop a bit due to cancellations and bad order data. Now if we could just get the mint to do a reverse buffalo that would be most excellent!

  4. Don says

    Change that to “the approximate number ordered” instead of “approximate mintage” in my above posting.

  5. Fosnock says

    This will be a winner. I’m glad I got one as they canceled the burnished -S

  6. simon says

    I concur. I’m generally sensitive about the abundant mint bashing which goes around, and as I see it here there is NO cause for complaints. I purchased a set on the last day and I’m looking forward to having it in hand early or late.

  7. lureuin says

    The real final number will be posted today around 3PM. I say the number will go up by 4000.

    *Data for cumulative total units ordered is an approximation of total units ordered from the Unites States Mint through all of its active sales channels. Total units ordered will be updated on Friday, July 6, 2012 by 3 p.m. (ET) to reflect the last day of the ordering window. This data is provided for informational purposes only and should not be construed to represent accepted orders or actual sales figures.

  8. Brad says

    Anybody who is familiar with the 20th Anniversary Set (which is probably just about everybody) will likely not cancel their orders at this point. That is especially true if the order was placed in time to receive the set(s) from the first wave of shipments later this month. If nothing else, sealed boxes from the first wave will probably sell for a nice premium to anyone wanting sets that qualify for the bogus “First-Strike” or “Early Release” grading designations.

    I hadn’t planned on spending so much on these, but since it now appears that these sets may be winners after all, the last minute order I placed yesterday will need to stand as well as my first-day order. Oh well.

  9. Val says

    I can live with 251,300!! I’m really surprised it’s not a higher number. I look forward over the next few months to see where it settles out at. I put my order in at about 1:10 PM on the first day they were offered, so I’m looking forward to the early arrival of these coins.

  10. bigdawg says

    there are millions and millions of coin collectors,does not scratch the surface. i’am happy with final. 250,000 is nothing

  11. Samuel says

    a question, when something is not right with the credit card, mint wont contact you, they just cancel the order?

  12. T1 Browserman says

    You have the opportunity to put a credit card you know will be accepted and make sure the credit card company is aware you are placing an order. I had 5 sets of the 2009 simply cancelled as I did not update my credit card info. No call no thing JUST AUTOMATIC CANCELLATION

  13. Samuel says

    the thing is the credit thief does not know u have placed an order. recently, one of my credit cards number got stolen, the bank closed my account and issued a new card with new number etc. i remember someone said last time, u can call in to confirm/change card number?

  14. stephen m. says

    I also agree, the mint has done an excellent job with this offering……..to date. I’m still going to wait to see how the mint will handle the left over sets due to cc’s not going through, cancellations, late mail ins, & etc. I think those should be dead coins or sets as you will. Anyone know or have any comments on this?

  15. TMM says

    I am pleasantly surprised at the final mintage, I thought there would be a lot more last day/ last minute sales. The total sales number is so close to the 2006 thta it will be interesting to see the final audited number, the total mintage may shrink below the 2006 set. We will see…

    On another note. Has anyone received any updated information on the FS gold 2012 coins??? With the exception of design images and a TBD timeline for release, the mint has offered few details. There are only 6 months left in 2012, that seems like a recipe for very low mintage numbers for the 2012 FS coins. Any updates are appreciated.

  16. T1 Browserman says

    I placed a multiple offering when I ordered this set. If I wished just this set to go onto another card I would call the mint and give them up to date info and also change it online if I intend to use the new method of payment for futures.

  17. Ralph says

    I justed checked my two orders. They both say “your order request is in process”. They also don’t have the cancel link at the bottom. Usually, orders stay in the “on hold” status for days.
    Maybe these set’s will go out sooner than expected!

  18. TomP says

    Samuel,

    In the long interval between my order of the Special Infantry set and it’s delivery, my credit card was sold to another bank. I called the Mint and asked to change my cc number. After a phone transfer and some standard security questions, no problem – set delivered.

  19. says

    Ralph…you have to log in to your account to see the cancel box. All my orders still have it, even the first one that was within the first 20 minutes.

  20. Samuel says

    Tom, thanks for the info. one of my card is also in the process of being transfered from chase to GE, i did not use it.

  21. Brad says

    Ralph,

    My order placed in the first 10 minutes of day one still has the cancellation box. Did you order other items in the same order that are now “In stock and reserved”? When that happens, the cancellation box disappears for ALL items in the order, even the ones that are still backordered. After the line items that were in stock are marked as “shipped”, the cancellation box for the backordered item lines comes back.

    TMM,

    At this point, I’m beginning to wonder if the Mint plans to wait until December to start selling all four of the 2012 First Spouse coin designs. I’m thinking the maximum mintage will be reduced from 15,000 each to 7,000 each. All 7,000 for each design will be minted just prior to December 31st in the ratio of 4,000 proofs/3,000 uncs and left for sale all during the calendar year of 2013 or until they sell out.

    The production level for the 2011’s seems to be establishing a pattern of the ratio I mentioned above, based on final sales figures provided for the sold out coins. If the Mint didn’t back off of the Lucy Hayes and Lucretia Garfield production levels, there’s no way they will sell out before the end of the year. However, since the “new normal” for the Mint seems to be leaving prior-year coins on sale alongside current year coins, I’m wondering if they will just leave the Hayes and Garfields on sale into 2013 until they finally do sell out. That “approximately one year” sales period that the Mint mentioned was an internal policy, not mandated in any way. As such, it’s subject to change at any time. I think that time may have come.

  22. Clair Hardesty says

    Sometimes the cancel buttons come and go. I think that they might disappear during some audit periods. Currently, the cancel boxes for my first two orders are there (with July ship dates) and the ones for my last two are missing (with October ship dates). I expect that the missing ones will reappear sometime soon. Typically, the cancel button disappears for good shortly after the item status changes to “in stock and reserved”.

  23. jeff72 says

    Nahh…I’m for low fixed mintages and the thrill of the catch…..”mint less=more excitement”….. I passed on this set.

    …besides…this series, as much as I like it, and collect it, has been minted to death.

    Next will be colorized SE’s…….upside-down SE’s ..SE’s with swarovski crystals attached.

    Yeah I know….there’s a critic in every group -back to my funnel-web.

  24. Samuel says

    Brad, what you said in the 1st paragraph is not right. i ordered ATB and the SF set, ATB shipped already, but the cancel box is still there for the SF set.

  25. RLP says

    Having just checked my orders, have to agree with Clair, the cancel boxes come and go. Order for 6/7 contained other items besides SF ASE. When the additional items went to “In stock,and reserved” cancel box was absent for any items but did re-appear for the ASE set following shipment of the other items. Same scenario observed for my latest order.

  26. Richard W says

    I’ve followed the entire blog,with only one entry early on.Thank you Mike your informative writing is interesting and help full.Some of the writers on your blog should apologizing for the comments and bashing.I believe the mint got this offering administered as close to right as possible.Hopefully the quality is satisfying and the delivery goes smoothly.Absolutely no one that desired this set was excluded,those that chose to stand out will regret there choice.I personally purchased 2 set.This will be indeed a splendid addition to the ASE series.Congradulations to all you winners condollances to those making the opposite choice.Respectfully

  27. ED says

    I think both coins in this set are great !!!! Not like the 2011 & 2006 annv set that have extra already released eagles included within. The Proof is by far second lowest mintage so far and rev proof might be in second place also depending on cancelation numbers. A win/win for all who purchesed !!!!

  28. simon says

    Just my 2 cents : a high number of these will be graded and traded, mostly by dealers. I’m guessing for this mint offering that sets in OGP will be the rarity.

  29. Brad says

    Samuel,

    You must have misunderstood me. I said the cancel button disappears on all lines in an order (even backordered ones) when one or more items go to “In Stock and Reserved”, but comes back for backordered lines after the in stock items are marked as “shipped.” So yes, it makes sense that your cancel button came back for the SF set after your ATB shipped. That’s what I said would happen. I’ve seen it before in the past with some of my own orders.

  30. RLP says

    Whatever else you may feel about this SF ASE set offer, the FUN factor was definitely elevated.

    Cheers to the US Mint… for turning the starting online order fiasco into a party of sorts.. ! Hopefully any lingering doubts will be assuaged once the orders are delivered.

    Conditions surrounding the offer definitely generated lots of commentary, opinion, and perspective differences. In the future it will make a good story to share with those who did not happen to be directly engaged.

  31. Samuel says

    for the dealer who offered $229 for 70, now offer $249 NO FR/ER label and delivery date is early oct. and those $289 ones are gone(they want to save the FR/ER for later?). seems they did not order that much at the beginning, and they ordered some in the middle, probably not at the end of the window.

  32. rpw says

    @simon

    “I’m guessing for this mint offering that sets in OGP will be the rarity.”

    Can you explain what you mean because I’m not following the logic.
    All sets ordered will have the OGP unless you break up the coins and sell them individually. Unlike the 25th ASE set, if you send these in for grading, you only need to send in the coin (not the OGP). If you really want to – nothing stops you from removing coins from graded slabs and putting them back in the (OGP) capsules – especially if they don’t get the grading you want.

    (I never liked the concept of TPG but quickly learned that, like it or not, TPG coins have a higher premium. I did not have my 2009 UHR Double Eagle graded and now regret it because it would be worth at least $1K or more had I gotten it graded with the Early Release Label assuming it would have gotten a 70. Never again. You can ALWAYS take it out of a slab. You Can’t always get the early release/first strike label. As I said – I don’t like it – it’s a scam, but it is what it is. People will ALWAYS look for a way to put a higher premium on the coins they have versus the next guys even if it is just the slab that sets it apart.)

  33. Bill B says

    I placed my order for several sets the first day they were offered. And decided if they don’t go much above 250,000 the day before the end of the offering, I’d buy several more!
    July 4th. I ordered more sets. I hoped they wouldn’t go over the 20th anniversary eagles of 248,875, or much over any way. I was hoping they would push the 2006 eagles out of 3rd place.
    Now today with the numbers posted up to the end of the offering, I see 251,302. The final day only sold 564 more sets. I was amazed, and well pleased. I figured it would be in the thousands. If we have more cancellations, or problems with credit cards, the final figures could be very close or maybe below the 2006 eagles. I am sure glad I ordered more sets now! I wonder if the Mint will update the count again Monday?

  34. ED says

    Im guessing you can open and look at these coins before you submit them to the grading companys.

  35. simon says

    rpw:
    my reasoning (not necessarily verifiable) is that dealers will have made the large quantity purchases of several hundred to a thousand sets. Flippers would be responsible for tens to a hundred sets. Die hard collectors will also account for a good amount but the rest would be in OGP possibly for trade or sale. I expect this final category to be small compared with dealer/flipper graded units. The numbers graded after a year or so should stabilize and be available to TPG members.

  36. Clair Hardesty says

    The reason the final day’s number was so low (564) is because it was only for the last few hours from the report just before 3PM ET on the 5th until 5PM when sales closed. The previous full 24 hour period saw 5607 sets ordered. The sales from the 3rd to the 4th was the second highest single day of sales after the opening day (which was more like 27 hours long). In the end, something shy of 8900 sets per day was the average rate of sales.

    rpw, I don’t slab my coins but the very reason you cite is why I have taken to buying more than one of offerings like these. I keep at least one in the box the mint shipped it in so it can either be sent to PCGS for FS labels or sold to someone who wants that. I can still open and enjoy another set, in this case one of the ones that won’t be eligible for special labeling. Unopened, properly dated mint packaging can be sent to PCGS anytime for FS labels, even unopened 2006 ASE sets are still eligible.

  37. TMM says

    Brad @ 4:21, I agree with your assessment – thanks for your feedback. I simply wish the mint would give collectors a hint as to when the 2012 FS coins are going to be released. Here’s hoping we learn soon…

  38. Jack in N.E says

    Clair, Thanks for clarifying the last days sales report and update.I never gave any thought to the last 2 hour sales window.P.S good to read your informed commentary again.Yes I shall enjoy my lonely 1 set in OGP

  39. Clair Hardesty says

    auxmike, the 251,304 is the number of sets ordered and is probably accurate. It may rise slightly if there are any mail orders that are still to be accepted but those should be in next week’s weekly sales report that comes out on Tuesday. It is most certainly not the final audited number of sets sold, which will be some slightly lower number that may not be known until the annual report is issued.

  40. auxmike says

    I was just thinking that people would start to drop their orders if it was over the 2006 sets mintage thinking it was “too many”. Sure that’s silly, I agree, but these flipper people might get nervous.

  41. ED says

    Clair dont know guama. So why ask ??(who cares) ??? For the record I only follow trends….

  42. Shutter says

    I keep at least one in the box the mint shipped it in so it can either be sent to PCGS for FS labels or sold to someone who wants that.
    I don’t understand this strategy at all. Quiet apart from utter bogosity of typical FS labels and complete uselessness of them when they are real, is there any evidence that they carry significant premiums over coins in the same grade but without those extra words? Particularly with PCGS who charges an extra $18 per coin plus $8 per submission, plus the extra cost of shipping, etc. Keeping in mind that if you ship a coin to be graded sight unseen there is a possiblity of it being graded low enough that you’ll have to crack it out. In the case of 2011 Rev Proof, some poor sap got 1 back from NGC labeled PF63. Yes, it was ER, but so what? Who’s going to buy it, when there are thousands of 69-70? With 2011 set, at least, you had to send in unopened box to get “25 Anniversary Set” label on 3 non-unique coins. And there is a small premium for those.

    Personally I would never pay actual money for a sealed box with, God alone knows what’s inside. There are a bunch of people who’ve been trying to peddle 20th Anniversary set in sealed boxes for year, with somewhat limited success. Let’s say you buy one of those (one guy is asking $128K for 160 sets). What will be your recourse when a month later PCGS tells you that you sent them a box of styrofoam peanuts or a few bags of 2006 circulating pennies? And what is the possible upside? After paying $800 per set and traveling to Tennessee (the guy offer local pic-up only) and paying all kinds of fees to TPGs, you might get lucky, if they’re all 70, and gross $1,200 per set. After eBay and PayPal fees you’re way in the red.

  43. Shutter says

    Do you think the final number will be lower than the 2006 set, Clair?

    For practical purposes, there isn’t all that much difference between 248K and 251K. Both sets where available for approximately same length of time and both came in at roughly the same total. Shocka! The big difference will be, in my opinion, a lot more of 2012 sets will get slabbed immediately, and depending on future market prices, possibly even more will get slabbed in years to come.

  44. guama says

    I would be a bit nervous to sell an unopened box because my address and personal info is inside.

  45. guama says

    @Samuel
    I was referring to the invoice the mint sends you inside the shipped box. Not sure about paypal and ebay. Not a big seller…just buyer._thanks:)

  46. Samuel says

    i think if u sell on ebay, ur real name address etc have to be exposed to buyer anyway, right?

  47. Shutter says

    i think if u sell on ebay, ur real name address etc have to be exposed to buyer anyway, right?

    If anyone is concerned about exposing their address in either case, just get a small PO Box and have everything shipped there. You’d have to visit the Post Office, but you won’t have to be home to sign for stuff. Most eBay sellers use USPS and US Mint will ship via USPS if it’s going to PO Box.

  48. VA Bob says

    Good job US Mint. Seems the mint-to-demand method has been vindicated. Collectors were the big winners, but some of the flippers, speculators, and dealers probably got some love too. What’s nice IMO is that the current market drove the sales, not phony low mintage hype where certain groups can capture the lions share of the coins and dictate unrealistic short term prices. I’ve no issue with people that want to make money, but now they have to participate in the risk, for a more modest short-term profit, just like everyone else. Long term profitability is anyones guess.

    I realize the powerful monetary lure of the “FS/ER” labels have for sellers and their less informed buyers. I do have to wonder what kind of premium this will have say 20 or 30 years from now when all of today’s modern junk is floating around in quantities. Will it be seen as an old fad (I believe that will be the case) and I hope it is, because a coin should stand on its own merits, not a label, and especially not one with an added gimmick. Hopefully future collectors will be smarter than most of todays coin buyers, and realize it for what it is. IMO the only good reason for a slab is to buy reasonably safe, sight unseen. This is becoming more difficult as slabs are now being faked. This can be avoided by buying from a trusted source and knowing exactly what you’re buying (know the markers). High res photos or scans will be key for the buyer and sellers, so no switches can occur. That would be an excellent third-party enterprise idea, company verifies coin from buyer to seller that said coin is authentic, no slab (just an air-tight), no grade, no fancy label, and if needed verifies the same coin is being returned, in same condition if the buyer decides to return. Piece of mind for buyer and seller. After all the forgers are improving their craft.

  49. Shutter says

    I do have to wonder what kind of premium this will have say 20 or 30 years from now

    Probably the same as now. Butkus. There are just too damn many of them.

    High res photos or scans will be key for the buyer and sellers

    Scans are pretty useless, regardless of resolution.

  50. Clair Hardesty says

    Shutter, I am curious. What do you mean by saying scans are useless? Are saying that photos are OK and scans aren’t or that images aren’t really useful at all?

  51. Shutter says

    Scans are useless.. Scanners are optimized to capture images of 2D objects like documents or photographs. Coins are not 2D (except for that godawful Wyoming quarter). They are small 3D sculptures. You need a decent camera with a good Macro lens (for close focusing, neutral color, and flat field) to accurately capture them. You also need bunch of other things, but that’s beyond the scope of this blog. If done right, photos are more than OK, they are essential.

    Yesterday Proxiblog had an article on imaging with examples. Take a look at it. I suspect that the images from Proxibid were scans and they are juxtaposed against photographs taken with a pretty cheap camera. Cheap camera wins hands down.

  52. Louis says

    First of all, I concur that the Mint did a good job. I was skeptical and was wrong as this seems to have worked out very well.
    I am glad we can open these ones before sending to TPG’s, if we want to do that. But there are times when having unopened boxes is useful. I sold 2 unopened boxes of 25th anniv. sets for $1500 to a dealer (not someone on e-Bay) minus my shipping costs (something like $40), got a certified check 2 days later, and that allowed me to get 3 sets for free that are all perfect.
    With the UHR, it was very hard to get FS/ER because of the shipping delays. I sent mine unopened to PCGS on the last possible day (due to the delays) and now my $1300 investment is worth about 5K. My brother did the same and got the same result, though he is gone now, so that does not matter. But his wife inherited a valuable piece.
    You can knock the TPG’s all you want, and I have my own gripes too, but the fact is it can be a good way to add value. I have FS coins that got 70’s from PCGS and added hundreds to the coin’s value and paid for my whole year’s grading fees and then some (just one coin).
    So, yes, RPW, like it or not, it can be useful to get your modern Mint products slabbed. But I like to keep some sets in OGP, and won’t have modern world coins graded. You have to pick and chose, and broad generalizations just will not cut it, guys and gals!
    FYI, for anyone interested, I have a new article on the new FS key coin that is generating quite a lot of interest. Feel free to post a comment at the end and if I have time I will respond:
    http://www.coinweek.com/modern-coins/the-coin-analyst-eliza-johnson-not-julia-tyler-is-the-current-queen-of-the-gold-spouses/

  53. Louis says

    @VA Bob- Not sure if this is what you have in mind, but NGC currently has a service that will take high quality professional pics, not scans, of any coins you send in for grading , which they e-mail to you and you can use them to sell the coins on e-Bay. I forget the fee, but you may want to check into it. Also, pics, scans, whatever are very useful for insurance purposes. Any of you folks that have a lot of money invested in your collections should get separate coin insurance. You home owner’s will not do. Just join the ANA and contact Hugh Wood, Inc. which has excellent rates whether you store at home, at the bank, or both. Give yourself the peace of mind.
    Have a great post-SF weekend everyone.

  54. Shutter says

    NGC currently has a service that will take high quality professional pics

    I think they are about 3MP. I think, by default they photograph nearly all coins today (you can see the pictures when you check certification). They only charge you $10, if you want a copy. That probably means you can get a copy later if you pay them. They aren’t great but they are better than most images on eBay and they will make insurance people happy.

    Also, pics, scans, whatever are very useful for insurance purposes.

    I still say that scans suck mittens. If you don’t want to learn about photography and don’t want to spend oodles of money, invest in a small P&S camera with close focusing capability (e.g. Pentax Optio WG-2). That, along with a table-top tripod and a small easel to hold the coin, is all you need to do better than even the best scanner in the universe.

  55. Hidalgo says

    @Louis – you state that you were able to get MS70 ratings for some of your coins, which added value to them. But considering the law of averages, you likely received MS68 and MS69 ratings for other coins. My friends who go to Las Vegas have similar stories to tell — I hear about how much money they make by gambling, but I rarely hear of their losses. Same is true for those who play the lottery…. LOL!

    From what I’ve seen on eBay, a MS69 rating for some recent US Mint products actually decreases the value of some coins.

    JMHO.

  56. ClevelandRocks says

    I will only buy graded old coins to make me fell like they have less chance of being doctored. New coins I always buy directly from the Mint and send them back if they don’t look like 70s to my eye (“my eye” is what I’m actually buying the coins for!). I 100% agree with Hidalgo, graded modern 69s almost never add value (usually decrease it).

  57. Don says

    I agree with you, Hidalgo. Because the Mint is getting so good in quality control with their products, coin people are jaded by the high number of perfect 70’s. It is almost disappointing to receive a “69” and, yes, it does decrease the value.
    That’s why I leave them in the OGP.

  58. PAUL H says

    I purchased 4 seperate orders of 5 sets (on the last day) I will keep them all sealed and hold.
    The purchase is 100% speculative that one or the other coin yeilds low 70’s and if there is a premium on those 70’s, like with the 1996 silver eagle.
    Granted the coins are in a collectors set and will more likley to have a high 70 population due to the process however I believe that the proof coin in the set is one of the lowest mintage proofs aside from the 1995 w making this coin a very good candidate for a premium on the 70 grades.
    I feel that there was ample time for coin dealers/graders and set flippers to aquire enough sets to saturate the eBay market for a while.
    If the market is so saturated that the dealers cannot flip the defective (coins not worth grading) sets unsealed for a profit they will return their defective sets as fast as they receive them based on the current demand. the mint can’t resell them or they will be sued for re-offering the product.The final mintage figures will more than likely be much lower due this and other returns and cancellations etc. If there is not enough sealed lots for sale on the secondary market to cover the demand for a possible low 70 count then the sealed sets will carry a premium depending on future demand and population counts etc.
    $75.00 for each coin is high given the current silver market.
    If the sets where sold at $99.95 33% less, sales figures would have been much higher in the final days and I would not have purchased even one set.
    I felt that there was enough senerios present that made the speculative purchase worthy despite the premium cost of the coins.
    I will sell my 20 sets (5 in each box sealed) for profit or i will hold them, I will not be sending them in to have them graded under any circumstance.

  59. Don says

    To put it another way, let me ask you this: As a collector, would you rather keep your set in the OGP after closely inspecting it for possible flaws or would you be happier if you had the set graded and it came back with a “69” label. The “69” label sends the message that this is an “imperfect” coin(s) and “69” is what you will see every time you look at your coin.

  60. ClevelandRocks says

    Seems like the folks on this thread bought the 564 “last call” sets. Makes me wonder about the number. Seems way low to me, but we will find out next week with sales report. I suspect higher than published. My two sets will be opened for me to enjoy and not slabbed. If they have any “problems” I will exchange them. I think the Mint will have some for exchanges (for us “round 1ers”).

  61. stephen m. says

    I haven’t understood the label commanding a higher dollar, 70’s worth more is one thing but early release, first strike and all the rest of the labeling does sell higher to a group of collecters and that’s the part that’s difficult to understand for me. Who knows what the far future will actually be for these graded modern coins. @shutter As an example of buying a label, i would buy the lonely ngc 2011 RP63 at a reasonable price although i don’t know why? The novelty of it perhaps. There are, i think, people that do try for the very low graded sets. Sometimes myself included.

  62. guama says

    I hope so cleveland. I wondered about returns. That’s why I bought an extra one. One for each of my grandchildren and an extra one.

  63. merryxmasmrscrooge says

    didn’t have the extra bucks, but still got good food on the table and job so I’m cool

  64. ClevelandRocks says

    @merryxmas, my previous post complained the Mint was trying to make too much Christmas with too many items these days. In addition to just “burn out”, all of the PM offerings will burn your wallet out too! Doesn’t make sense to spend thousands of dollars hoping for some premium that gets watered down buy the time you pay your selling fees and the time you waste selling them. I have been collecting small amounts carefully for decades for me and my family, never trying to flip, but wanting to feel “value” in my collection. The stock market is a better idea to make money in than numismatics, so collect for personal enjoyment (in OGP!).

  65. gumbyen says

    We can always hope for a mint error! The “light finish” on the Grand Canyon 5 oz was a nice suprise, though its current value does not seem to reflect its scarcity…

  66. Shutter says

    The “69″ label sends the message that this is an “imperfect” coin(s) and “69″ is what you will see every time you look at your coin.

    If you take any coin and place it under a microscope (at say 20X), you will find flaws. “70” doesn’t actually mean that the coin is absolutely flawless, since that is technologically impossible. IT means that you can’t see flaws at up to certain level of magnification.

    It is factually incorrect to claim that 69 grade for a slabbed coin is cheaper than OGP. Leaving aside the most obvious example of 1982 Washington half (MS69 sells for 6-10X the price of OGP), I looked at 1996 Smithsonian gold. PF69 examples have been selling for $600-650, while a recent eBay auction for 2 X 2 coin sets sold for $900. That’s 2 silver and 2 gold coins for $900. Barely above melt.

    Secondly, prices are never based on absolute grade, but take into account the highest available grade and overall grade distribution for all examples of a particular coin. Very few modern coins that are not solely intended for collectors, get graded very highly. For example 2007 Washington dollar. It’s OGP value is (drumroll please) $1.00. An MS65 example is worth $5-6.

  67. Samuel says

    Paul,
    you said ” the mint can’t resell them or they will be sued for re-offering the product.”. are you sure about that? most people here believe that the mint wont hesitate for a second to send the coin to the next customer. so people placed order late is in big risk of receiving the “returned” coins.

  68. Samuel says

    will the ER/FR label this time worth some money? since probably only half of the mintage is in the first shipping wave.

  69. TomP says

    What about the U.S. Mint’s physical stores, will they sell the set?

    The online catalog states a 4 week ‘ordering’ window. The mailed catalog states a 4 week ‘offering’ to coin enthusiasts.

    Can the Mint catalog sell to the Mint stores. One example is a sales order of 50,000 last month, then a delivery of 30,000 to the stores of customer returned ’69’s. All in time for the Christmas selling season and the customers get to inspect the coin at time of purchase. There can be all kinds of accounting and semantic gimmicks to allow this.

    The important question for many is how, when and for how long will this effect the sales totals.

  70. KEITHSTER says

    OT. Am I missing out on something here do you mean that if I take my 2007 Washingtons in OGP crack open a roll and cherry pick out the best. Then send them in to be graded for what ? $10 to $20 and they all come back MS65’s but are now worth atleast $5 or $6. What exactly am I missing out of.?.

  71. guama says

    I would be surprised if the mint stores carried sets. I was just at the philly one and they had a small sign that talked about the. 4 week window.

  72. Shutter says

    Then send them in to be graded for what ? $10 to $20 and they all come back MS65′s but are now worth atleast $5 or $6. What exactly am I missing out of.?.

    You’re not missing anything. It’s a loser proposition. Unless you’re a dealer that gets much better prices from TPG and you get a decent smattering of of MS66 and do it early enough while the suckers are paying $30. That’s one of the reasons I don’t collect circulating coins. With hundreds of millions minted and no PM upside, they will never be worth anything, Unless you get a mint error. That same Washington with missing edge lettering gets serious premium in the highest grades.

  73. Hawk says

    Incorrect Shutter, 69s can sell for less than OGP, it all depends on the coin. A blanket statement cannot be made either way.

  74. KEITHSTER says

    Now that the final order numbers are maybe in ( Not much faith in late mail order #’s) all we can do is watch the numbers drop and drop they will.It’s now in everybodys best intrest to make this set as hot as it can be.And I’m sure they know how the large order dealers will keep the best send the rest.Then the Mint will manipulate the numbers downward the best they can, yes it’s also in their best intrest to have this set be as hot as it can be on the secondary market the (see told you soo factor). I’m sure they will try to make as little extra product as possible would’t you. Sure they will send out the returns would you expect a car dealer to desroy a new car that a customer retuned because it had a ding in it? So if all goes well for them they should’nt have to strike a last batch of more than 564 for the last min.shoppers or say sorry only refunds.

  75. Don says

    @ClevelandRock

    I wholeheartedly agree with you. Buying modern issue coins, like any other hobby that involves collectibles, should not be done with the idea that it is a great form of investment. It should be done, foremost, for the enjoyment that one gets out the hobby.
    Buying stocks or mutual funds are invesments, coins–not so much.

  76. Shutter says

    Incorrect Shutter, 69s can sell for less than OGP, it all depends on the coin. A blanket statement cannot be made either way.

    I did not make a blanket statement. I merely corrected one and provided actual examples where a coin graded 69 consistently sells at a premium to OGP.

    Do you have examples of where a coin in OGP sell consistently at a premium to one graded 69 by top tier TPG? Or is it just a religious conviction?

    Of course every coin graded 69 can be easily converted to raw. I may be confused, but you can’t always go in the opposite direction.

  77. KEITHSTER says

    Never worth nothing hundred’s of millions made no PM up side. Sorry son you’re talking to a nickle hoarder here sorry no down side left in those only US circ. coin left worth it’s weight in semi – PM’s Shucks I get rolls of those every chance I get.Also get all the unc. rolls the bank will sell me ya when you can find those. In just this last week I scored over 50 rolls of the new and maybe last of tne SPM 2012 D nickle’s. Remember they should let us know by about Christmas when they will start making them out of steel or plastic or wood or something. Then let the melting begin bye-bye hundreds of millions heck did’nt take Canada long. Look up the price of their last penny rolls or are old cicr. Buff. rolls you get the picture if not how about our 2011 or 2012 unc. penny rolls.I got a box of the 2011’s and 20 rolls of the 2012’s from the bank where else or you going to get 100 uncirculated US coins for $1 paper money nuff said. Good luck to All.

  78. Don says

    @Keithster,

    Did you have to add extra support columns and floor joists to your house to support all the extra weight of all these coin rolls?

  79. says

    OT, have you purchased the S mint El Yunque quarter rolls/bags? I’m surprised that they haven’t sold as well as I thought they would. Here are totals so far for all options.

    2012 EL YUNQUE QUARTER BAGS & ROLLS
    100-coin bag (P) 3,548 34
    100-coin bag (D) 3,402 34
    Two-Roll Set (80 coin) (P&D) 22,497
    100-coin bag (S) 4,994
    40-coin roll (S) 7,907

  80. Don says

    Steve,
    Keep in mind that each of these S mint quarters will be available for purchase for one year. Although the totals for the bags and rolls is currently low (they just went on sale June21), you can be sure that these totals will start to balloon over the next several months.
    Having a one year purchase window works to the advantage of the mint customer, as one can see if the mintage totals make it worthwhile to buy the bags or rolls. If the totals get too high the value of these will drop. It might then be better to buy individual S mint quarters on the secondary market just to have them for a complete ATB collection.
    There is also a possibility that the Mint will add these S mint coins to the circulating quarters set later in the year.

  81. VA Bob says

    Louis – Yes, I’m aware of NGC’s photo option (PCGS has one too). My comment was in reference to a possible third party service from seller to buyer (or reversed). A high res photo might just be kept on file in case of a dispute. As for scans, I wasn’t implying a home flatbed scan as Shutter alluded to. I was thinking something more commercial and not necessarily a typical image scan (perhaps spectrometer or other high tech scan(s)), to quickly finger print a coin, at very high levels of detail, as all coins are different and have tiny marks if one looks close enough. Said business, if it were to ever come about, could just keep the info it in a database, in case of a dispute. They are just guaranteeing a genuine coin transfers to the buying party, and if returned, ensuring the same coin goes back to the seller, nothing more. Eliminates bait and switches. It would have to be cheaper than a TPG, but would still give the seller/buyer piece of mind. If it existed, I’d use such a service.

    Also, you gave excellent advice to the collector concerning insurance.

    IMO, if one is going to sell right away, I agree get it slabbed, make some money, it’s still the same coin. Otherwise if you have a high grade coin in OGP, it will still be high grade if you get it slabbed in the future to sell. Unless one feels the TPG’s won’t give an easy “70” at a later date. For me, if that’s the case, I wouldn’t trust their opinion in the first place if that’s how they operate. There have been complains of coins changing in slabs (milk spots, toning). Why risk it? Then on top of that, try getting the TPG to cough up THEIR list price to buy the coin. But it’s all a matter of personal choice. I have a few coin in slabs purchased on the secondary market, the difference being I paid no more for them than a raw coin. Somebody ate the fee’s on those, and I do appreciate that.

  82. KEITHSTER says

    Nope not yet anyway but who know’s. Only been at the nickle thing big time since they anounced the change over in the change.Don’t want to have to break them open and sort thru them like the penny people.Keep all my unc. rolls and old nickle rolls in new mason jars they seem to like it.Don’t know how they will tone up over the years but i think they will do ok even after they use up all the oxygen in there.I seem to like the 1/2 gallon jars best you can get about $80 in nickle rolls in them or $40 to the quart.Also use the quart and pint jars for the other unc rolls.My intent is to save them for the kids coming up that may want to collect coins don’t think they will be able to afford the fancy Big Buck stuff but should be able to save up enough to get an old roll of nickle’s.A lady at work want’s me to leave them to her in my will I told her she could’nt have the unc’s and she was ok with that. but she just want’s to cash them in ya right! Also being in the mason jars they’re ready to go underground if the goverment wants their money back like when they recalled everyones gold. Now the only problem is where and who to leave the map’s with.So if you want some better bring a truck and some help because it’s hard to carry over a gallon of those things at a time. good luck to all.

  83. ClevelandRocks says

    Off topic: Mint needs to stop the 2011 Buffalo sales now!
    I complained to customer sevice and think others may want to do so as well.
    I purchased one in May 2011 to keep, but with gold down now and sales continuing for well over a year now, it’s value will drop and those that have been loyal to Mint offerings by purchasing when released get screwed by this never-ending offering. If folks don’t complain, the Mint may do this with other items. A month seemed fair to most for the SanFran set, so a year should seem like the maximum length of offering for any product. We should all voice our opinion about the “year max” rule to the mint if you agree.

  84. Don says

    @jm

    I assume you are referring to the topic of this blog, the SF silver eagle set. All you have to do is check the completed lisings on ebay for the “San Francisco silver eagle set”. You will see that they are selling in the $200. range. These are all pre-sales, meanings that none of the sellers have the set in hand. Of course they are all being sold in OGP.

  85. Shutter says

    I wasn’t implying a home flatbed scan as Shutter alluded to.
    Sorry if I misunderstood. Using flatbed scanners to produce images of coins is a pet peeve.

    I was thinking something more commercial and not necessarily a typical image scan (perhaps spectrometer or other high tech scan(s)), to quickly finger print a coin, at very high levels of detail, as all coins are different and have tiny marks if one looks close enough.
    Not sure what a spectrometer would accomplish, but PCGS has a service called Secure Plus that does something with laser scans to produce some sort of digital fingerprint. It’s pretty pricey and proprietary. I think that makes sense with high value coins.

  86. KEITHSTER says

    Ya Ya maybe a protest in the street or a sit in at the mint that might get their attention.Most should find themself’s lucky to even own a 2011 buffalo in these hard times.As all old buffalo must one day die this one’s day will come. As no man knoweth the day be glad it’s still alive and buy another one it’s going to be a lower mintage one anyway isn’t it? YA pays your money and YA’s takes your chance’s it’s the nature of the game.Maybe the mint could start a lease or rent to own program that way if they dont make enough profit fast enough we can send them back whenever.Or if they do the option to buy that way a lot more people could enjoy more of their products and send them back when their done.OR their relatives when they are really done cause the don’t what them coins except for their worth. good luck to all.

  87. simon says

    the sales stats say 50 units for the 2011 vs 380 units for the 2012. The 2011’s appear to still have life.

  88. ClevelandRocks says

    Keithster’s “whatever” attitude about a firm 1 year time limit for offerings is the reason I cancelled all of my subscriptions. No gratitude from Mint for loyalty.

  89. Gary says

    The US Mint wants to make sure EVERYBODY can get whatever item they want. We cant have any rare coins! Rare,hard to get, low mintages makes for very unhappy collectors! Just ask the US Mint!

  90. Mercury says

    It is in the best interest of the US Mint to make sure EVERYBODY can get whatever items they want so that Collectors cant have any rare coins! Collectors have done OK with the difficulty of finding Rare, hard to get, low mintages coins for over 200 years or more; but that wasn’t good enough. Now the Mint and the Dealers are happy, but the Rare coin collectors are very unhappy! Just don’t ask the US Mint! Thanks Gary

  91. simon says

    Rarity is relative : TPGs are assigning both rarity and corresponding inflated prices in a highly dubious practice based on populations of coins in slabs. The Mint is the honest broker IMHO.

  92. ClevelandRocks says

    Sorry to disagree Simon, but an “honest broker” doesn’t encourage a subscription and then sell the exact item for less money months later for products that don’t even have a pricing grid.

  93. Mercury says

    Simon: Could it be possible that the Mint and the TPGs are working together in this set up? Think about it, if you flood the coin market with an over abundance of collectable coins, then the only other way to distinguish your coin from those hundreds of thousands of other coins, is to purchase a GRADED TPGs slab, preferably a FS or ER to set your collection apart from the tons of other coins that were minted. If someone is into collecting coins just for the purpose of collecting coins, then no limit mintages are OK. But I am of the notion that most coin collectors would like to hold on to their coins, and therefore collect for an investment purpose. My opinion is that the no limit mintages, ends up working to the advantage of the TPGs and those who collect slabs. What I predict is bound to happen is that if this new system of minting coin continues unabated, is that there is the distinct possibility that the only coins worth collecting will end up being the GRADED TPGs slabs. So in the end, the Dealers still win. A person will still have to put out the extra expense of a TPGs slab in order for ones collection to be of any real value. Sure TPG slabs are subjective, but so is coin collecting in general; or should I say, it used to be subjective. Be warned, that with this new no limit mintage practice, GRADED TPGs slabs will become the new benchmark. So for all you Dealers out there who are pretending to be coin collectors, by applauding the no mintage system… sure it makes you happy, because your about to take that smile to the bank.

  94. Gary says

    @Mercury
    If the collectors have done all right with finding rare coins. Then why where so many complaining about the 25th Anniversary Sets? This is why we ended up with the “made to order” 75th Anniversary Set! As far as i am concerned the max mintage on any special sets should be 100k…MAX!! 1 per household!

    The US Mint is just giving those kind of collectors what they want! FLOODED MARKET!! Enjoy everbody!

  95. KEITHSTER says

    Whatever ‘Sorry don’t own or work at the mint not in on their staff meetings. I’m ok with the new order 4 week limit.hope your cancellation doesn’t cause a goining out of business sale . I cancelled my only one too but only because wasn’t sure the funds would be there at the correct time.want rare coins go to a coin shop they have plenty, want rare moderns good luck the line forms around the corner want quick profit sell dope or get a real job sorry got to go to work to support my mint habit. good luck to all.

  96. Don says

    Keithster,

    I agree with you. If one wants rare coins, modern Mint issues (sets, commemoratives, etc. are not the place to get them. Oh sure, there might be a few isolated exceptions but, all in all, don’t count on any Mint offerings to be in the category of rare or scarce.
    In fairness to the Mint, it is not their responsibility to create rarities by intentionally keeping mintages artificially low. No, I don’t work for, or have any conections to the Mint.

  97. simon says

    Merc : My opinion is that the no limit mintages, ends up working to the advantage of the TPGs and those who collect slabs.

    Exactly my point!

    What is the reason behind this? Unbridled hype playing to weaknesses of uninformed purchasers created by TPGs. TPGs sit, discuss, and formulate business plans, which are then executed to maximize their profits. They are in the business of collecting money by convincing us to part with it. This is what first strike, secure plus, etc are all about. They are secondary players. If I collect it does not matter whether it is a Lincoln cent with a mintage of 500 billion, or an ASE with a mintage of 30k. We all want value and some of us want it immediately (which is rapidly becoming the case, primed by TPG antics), while others invest time and care as is the case with all the classic (pedigree) collections.

    The mint is the honest broker simply because they are the ones striking precious metal planchets and issuing unique coins with kind regards to the entire body of collectors, without prejudice, let, or hindrance of any kind.

  98. Mercury says

    After comparing what has resulted from the complaints of the 2012 US Mint issued Eagle Sets. It has become evident in my opinion, that the Dealers and Marketers, made up the bulk of those complaints. The way I see it is that, what individuals were really upset about, was not their inability to obtain a 2012 Eagle Set, as much it was, their not being able to control an even bigger share of the profits. I don’t care what anybody say, the fact of the matter is, that Dealer purchases of the 2012 Eagle set, by far out numbered those of collectors. As I see it, it was the secondary market retailer who lashed out the loudest in 2011 because of not having a bigger piece of the pie. What would have been a much better in my opinion all the way around for both the 1211 and the 2012 Eagle set is a 175,000 mintage limit with one set per household. That would pretty much ensure that most, if not all interested collectors would at least get one. And of course dealers would need to be as they always have, more creative at obtaining more then on set. Don’t get me wrong there are complaints out there being made by coin collectors regarding the 2012 “mint to order” system we have in place. Our only problem is, nobody’s listening.

  99. Gary says

    The collectors who got the 25th Anniiversary Sets are listening the ones who didnt…arent listening but are feeling the pain!
    Oh well!!

  100. ClevelandRocks says

    Don, FS are more scarce than most coins ever minted, but who wants to look at Eliza Johnson? Not me! Some 100+ year old coins (Morgans) seem less rare than some ATB circulating quarters. Anyone else think one year should be the max limit for all offerings?

  101. Shutter says

    As far as i am concerned the max mintage on any special sets should be 100k…MAX!! 1 per household!

    Well, that certainly settles the argument. Why didn’t you say so in the first place?

  102. Don says

    ClevelandRocks,
    Agreed, but there has to be a demand for a product and there just isn’t much interest in FS coins. And there probably never will be. Because something is scarce, it doesn’t automatically equate to a high value. Petrified dinosaur turds are scarce but there are not too many people clamoring to get one. I never had any interest in these FS coins and I’m sure the majority of collectors don’t either.
    Eliza Johnson doesn’t do too much for me either.

  103. Shutter says

    FS are more scarce than most coins ever minted, but who wants to look at Eliza Johnson?
    Personally I wouldn’t be interested in FS coins even if they all looked like Marilin Monroe with UHR chest. But if you like the idea of First Spouse coins, invest in one of those Diva Faustina coins. They aren’t particularly rare and a decent example can be had for a fraction of Eliza Johnson.

    Anyone else think one year should be the max limit for all offerings?
    I don’t, but I think that the mint should have hard limits on how long numismatic items are for sale that are announced in advance. They should also stick to them. Some things, I don’t care if they have any time limits. Particularly scrap metal. Circulating coins, replica medals, FDC, anything that comes in boxes, bags, or rolls, collector spoons. For other things, 18-24 months may be appropriate. Mint sets, proof sets. For other things 4 weeks is plenty. I think it worked well with 75th Anniv set. It would have been awful if they stretched it out for 6 months or a year, and I’m not so sure they would have sold as many.

  104. Shutter says

    Petrified dinosaur turds are scarce but there are not too many people clamoring to get one.

    Didn’t Canada Mint produce coins with petrified dinosaur turds embedded? I think they sold out.

  105. Gary says

    i shutter at some of the petrified dinosuar turds who post comments on here.
    : o

  106. Don says

    Shutter,
    You might have stumbled upon a good suggestion for the Mint to do an ultra high relief chest Marilyn Monroe coin. It would probably be an instant sellout.
    Alright, I know that this is off-topic, but we’re just having fun on a sunday night.

  107. says

    While I like the Silver Eagle and Gold Eagle designs, I think it would be great to do something a little different for the Eagle’s 30th anniversary. I love both designs, but why not switch them…mint a silver eagle with the Saint Gaudens design and the gold eagle with the Walking Liberty design. I would love to see that!!

  108. Shutter says

    I love both designs, but why not switch them…mint a silver eagle with the Saint Gaudens design and the gold eagle with the Walking Liberty design.

    Or do the same thing as with platinum eagles. Leave bullion alone, but use a different reverse every year for proofs.

  109. KEITHSTER says

    All coins have a one year limit max on them it’s called the date.I know you mean the length of offer for sale .But you what to sell that same coin at any time for the rest of your life no max on you sounds fair. As for the FS’s ugly as they maybe their precious to me. Want to see the real beauty in them just flip them over or maybe you already flipped them so you can’t.As for the Crapolite ya that what them dino turds are called I FOR ONE wouldn’t pass a load of them without picking up as many as I could get my hands on. but I prefer the agate dino bone much more rare and better looking.Seem’s them dinosaurs were full of crapolite but only had one set of bone’s few of which turned to agate. SO please stay away from our ugly First Lady’s and Dino Turd’s WE prefer it that way thanks and good luck to ALL.

  110. RLP says

    US Mint Mission statement….

    “The primary mission of the United States Mint is to manufacture and distribute circulating coins, precious metals and collectible coins, and national medals to meet the needs of the United States.”

    Doesn’t say anything about groups (i.e. collectors, dealers, flippers, TPG’ers) omits any reference to volume(s) for whom, when, what, where or how other than “to meet the needs of the United States”.

    As declared earlier, Ya put down your money and accept, Ya get what ya get..!
    Your choice….

  111. Walt says

    Keep in mind that there could be games played with the late order sales. The late delivery ( Sept,Oct) coins could be of a lower quality. They could be returns from the July delivery. Also, some of those late sales could be additional orders from the people who will receive July deliveries. They can have the July coins graded and then after receiving the Sept deilveries return any of the July graded coins that came back say 68 or less. Just some thoughts.

  112. Dan says

    Hey Walt

    Since the mint arranged it for everyone to be able to order a set, wouldnt it be nice if they held the delivery back until they could ship out all the orders in a 2 week period. This way everbody would qualify for the ER/FS bogus labels and cut down on the games that could be played with returns. In addition it would level the paying field for everybody and give flippers something else to complain about.

  113. KEITHSTER says

    As they say at the start of the Olympics Let The Games Begin makes this one more intresting.Make’s us all players don’t want to play cancell. Or maybe Micky D’s could take all our orders and then deliver all the burgers at the same time so as to not upset any any of the customers at the end of the line.Sorry don’t work that way still some some get them hot some not but all will get them or not.It’s all part of the don’t sit on the fence it hurts thing.Have a nice day good luck to ALL?

  114. KEITHSTER says

    @ RLP Right On but I was taught it is YA get what ya get and don’t throw a fit. O The wisdom they give’m in preschool nowdays. My grand nephew taught me that one and he’s only 5 it’s one of fav.’s every time I hear it. good luck to ALL.

  115. RLP says

    Another applicable phrase: “its not personal, it just business”.

    The Mint is a business that also happens to produce collectables. Considering it may have to strike a billion pennies for commerce, its nice it still is willing to create a couple hundred thousand proofs for a niche segment outside of its primary business.

    Under the guise of numismatics we all have probably rationalized making a buck on the coins bought for a “collection” …someday.

  116. Don says

    Keithster,
    Your knowledge of paleontology is outstanding. It exposes you as a well-rounded, intelligent person. I might take your coin postings more seriously from now on.

  117. guama says

    Does the mint plan on offering “S” atb circulating quarters in the future? It doesn’t state on the website

  118. Stgecko says

    I may have missed a similar posting as I got tired of reading comments about half way through. Anyway I checked my order today and it’s not suppose to be delivered until October! R U kidding me? I guess I’ll twiddle my thumbs for a few months. I sure hope they haven’t charged my card yet. I’ll check on that now that I’ve mentioned it.

  119. Clair Hardesty says

    There is a seven day return period that starts when you receive the coins. It is unlikely that coins could be graded, sorted, cracked out, and prepared for return in time to meet the deadline. The mint will not ship out any returns that have been opened. They might resend bulk returns from dealers that are returned in the original sealed shipping boxes from the mint. here is probably no way the mint could ship all orders in a two week period (or even a one month period) even if all were in stock, picked, packed, labeled and ready to go. Well maybe then but it would be November before the first shipments went out.

  120. Shutter says

    probably no way the mint could ship all orders in a two week period (or even a one month period) even if all were in stock, picked, packed, labeled and ready to go.

    It took them nearly 2 months with 25th Anniversary sets. And they didn’t have all those other brand new mint products to ship then.

  121. guama says

    Walt…that could happen for customers that staggered their orders. They could do a switcheroo with the sets and return the not so perfect ones. But…you won’t get a replacement.

  122. alvaro says

    I have 10 sets for 7/27 delivery first wave, I will send them to be graded and the ones that grade 69 or less I will return them to the mint with my 10/28 late orders 1 week return policy. Lots of dealers will be doing this, thats why new orders for October were taken in the last days of sale. So dealers can return the non perfect ones from the first wave. No wonder mcm not offering an OGP set .mcm gonna hold on to the coins and return them with second wave orders.

  123. Walt says

    Guama….Customers already have this planned and have ordered more sets than they want knowing that they are going to return a certain amount. They will just take the best looking ones or re-insert the eagles back into their capsules if they had them graded and don’t like the grade and return them to the mint. You could order 100 and 100 sets, cherry pick the best 100 and return the second set of 100 or less for poor quality. The cost to you is just the insured shipping. Not too much to pay for getting to pick the best coins!

  124. bob says

    Good thinking alvaro, I hope your cherry picked coins are then shipped out to one of the A25 sets whiners – since their fussing lead to you having the ability to do what you describe! I’ll do the same myself.

  125. Clair Hardesty says

    You are only going to get away with a return scheme like this once, if that. The mint does not blindly accept returns. If you are a chronic returner, they will either refuse to sell to you or stop taking returns from you. There is a significant difference between returning a defective coin and returning one that doesn’t meet a certain desired grade at your favorite TPG. The TPG might also question your request to not slab coins that fall below PR69 (or even PR70). It would be difficult to deslab coins for returning so you would need to ask that they not be slabbed in the first place. While there are certainly some out there who do engage in these fraudulent practices, I would at least hope that use of this tack is not widespread. I don’t see large dealers giving up FS/ER labels in hopes of obtaining higher grades that lack them. For the smaller buyers, they have to be hoping that their first submissions will be back from the TPGs before their second orders come in and the second return periods expire. For the large dealers especially, there appears to be at least some profit to be made from the 69s, so returning them to get more 70s does not make sense. They would be shipping profit back to the mint.

    Please understand that switching coins between sets or returning sets other than the ones that were shipped is fraud, and fraud is a crime, whether or not you know that you can get away with it. As a member of the ANA, I am both honor and contractually bound to avoid such practices. As a human being whose life is guided in large part by the principle of the Golden Rule, I am morally obligated to act as I wish to be acted upon. While I don’t have any problem at all with pointing out how loose the system is (or at least is perceived to be) and imagining how such schemes would work, I sincerely hope that none of you are truly planning to act out these musings.

  126. Samuel says

    Clair, i totally agree with you. i think mint needs to figure out a way to deal with “returns” and large orders from dealers for the purpose of cherry-picking. these things ruin the hobby/market.

  127. stephen m. says

    I had figured the quailty of the sets to be good enough for the not so nice few of the sets to be sold as OGP by the BIG dealers. People, such as MCM, have a good reputation to uphold. These big companies didn’t get big by being dishonest crooks.

  128. Richard W says

    Clair,Thank you for your write,wouldn’t you think the mint might monitor these blogs and forums?

  129. Shutter says

    As a human being whose life is guided in large part by the principle of the Golden Rule

    Golden Rule is a good motivator, but let’s not forget about Murphy’s law. Such a scheme has too many moving parts to succeed. First you buy the coins, then you ship them for grading at $20+, then you get more coins, return the first set paying for shipping to the Mint. After that you send the second set for grading paying an additional $20+ per coin. At the end of all of this, you’re hoping that the second set grades higher then the coins you just returned to the Mint. However, there is no guaranty of that. In fact there is a distinct possibility that they will grade lower. So you spend all that money ($20+ a coin adds up) only to be worse off than you would have been by merely following rules. As Jackie Brown said: “This life’s hard. It’s harder when you’re stupid”.

  130. Kelly says

    Just a clarification

    Is this the same Golden rule and moral values that were in effect for the 25th anniversary 5 sets per household rule???????

    Disregard, we now have mint to demand so it wouldnt matter.

    Not a shot a you Clair, I am glad to see there a still a few others out there but I am afraid we are in a minority and not the majority.

  131. Clair Hardesty says

    Which was so eloquently sung by The Austin Lounge Lizards as “Life is hard, but life is hardest when you’re dumb.” Murphy is the great moderator but a little too fickle at times.

  132. yeling says

    the mint should not allow returns due to lesser grade they got. the mint must imposed no returns unless it is water damaged, scratched, dent or nick only. otherwise it is very unfair to other customers. the returns should not sell to other cfustomers. it should be melted down.

  133. yeling says

    mike, is the mint going to report sales figures every week on 2012s two coins set?. i understand there will be returns, cancellation due bad credit card and others.

  134. Don says

    Clair,
    I entirely agree with the sentiments you expressed on the practice of returning less than perfect 70 coins to the Mint. It is unbelievably selfish and self-serving on the part of individuals who engage in this practice. They are trying to exploit the system to the detriment of others.

  135. Don says

    Yeling, you have the right idea. The mint should refuse to take back sets that are undamaged in any way. But what would prevent unscrupulous individuals from deliberately inflicting a scratch or two on the lens or the coins themselves and then claiming the set(s) is damaged?

  136. Don says

    And one other thing: It is a pretty sad commentary that some posters on this site are actually bragging about the techniques they will use to beat the Mint. And there are other posters who are cheering them on.

  137. Jack in N.E says

    Some form of unpublished waiting list perhaps?Maybe because of already stated mintage they found a way to resell some returns or perhaps aglitch which I think they will catch up on at some point.Who knows time will tell good luck

  138. Clair Hardesty says

    This is a mistake that seems to be common when the mint decommissions a popular item. It has happened before and eventually the order will be cancelled and the page fixed. It is not part of any secret system, waiting list, or some other third thing, it is just a coding mistake by the website editor.

  139. Kelly says

    Clair

    Not to keep bringing up the 25th, but didnt the same thing happen and all the orders placed during the gliche get cancelled? At least this time anyone who really wanted one had ample opportunity instead of just giving many false hope.

  140. hi ho silver says

    Kelly ! If you wanted one You could have obtained one from the Mint! I will not comment on your issues any more ! Ask alvaro……

  141. KEITHSTER says

    Son of a glitch it’s been fixed! gone baby gone got on your link when I first seen it. Yup for sale tried 1 kicked it off went for 23 they gave me the price but they needed me to log in. Was I a regular or a guest it was starting to look bogus oh well time to go home. Had to try again when I got home would’nt you know it sold out again. Oh well got mine comming in the first wave don’t really need anymore.Did think it might be their way of dealing with all the bogus orders but I’m sure they know how to do that.Look’s like all you can hope for now is a upgrade in your shipping date (I got one so there should be more out there) and good looking set’s that is. good luck to all.

  142. george glazener says

    Yeah, I know. It probably will get canceled, but it just seemed weird that I got it ordered at all. If they accidentally send me 23, I’ll share with you folks.

  143. guama says

    Clair…thanks for being honest. I would never have thought of doing a switcheroo and being dishonest. I hope the mint gets wind of this scheme and closes it down. As for the mint not selling to those…easy fix. They can get their buddies/cousins/neighbors to order for them. Isn’t that how they got their gazillion 25th sets and profited immensely?

  144. Timesetter says

    I’m just happy I got in on this set….and hopefully, years down the road, my daughter will be happy I was able to get in on this set too.

  145. alvaro says

    Not a smart thing too do timesetter. Unless you know your kids like coin collecting dont buy for them. If seen it lots of times young teenagers come in to coin shops and sell their inherit coins for cheap they just want the money. Im gonna make sure my daughter is a natural coin collector, try giving her a unexpensive coin like an ike dollar and see if she doesnt spend it on a bag of chips if she does shes not a coin collector. My nephew didnt pass the test he bought a soda .

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