Update: 2015 American Liberty High Relief Gold Coin

liberty_obverse_7.13.15

U.S. Mint Public Affairs Specialist Lateefah Simms has issued a statement saying that the 2015 American Liberty High Relief Gold Coin, due for release at noon (EDT) on July 30, will have a mintage limit of 50,000 coins, with per-household sales restricted to 50 units each. According to a release posted on the U.S. Mint’s website, the coin will come in a “black, satin lined, velvet” case with a certificate of authenticity.

liberty_reverse_7.13.15

Simms noted that the coin can only be purchased online or by calling 1-800-USA-MINT (872-6468). She continued, “Customers should be aware this could be a high-demand item. For faster ordering, customers should be on the website at noon July 30. If customers have an account and are logged in, they can usually complete their purchase in under two minutes. The website can handle thousands of customers at a time, so the website is the fastest method to get an order in the system.”

Last week, the U.S. Mint provided projections for the cost of the coin relative to the changing price of gold; you can view their pricing estimates here.

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Comments

  1. cagcrisp says

    “Customers should be aware this could be a high-demand item. For faster ordering, customers should be on the website at noon July 30.”

    Sounds Like the Mint has a Lot riding on the Success of this coin and they are Pounding the Table…

    “black, satin lined, velvet”. That’s what I’m talking about… (NOT)…

  2. Larry says

    I would buy if it came with the Red Oak Presentation case! The 2009 UHR case was the best ever.

  3. Sith says

    The mint is very confident on this one…I’m still sitting on the fence but in either case I can’t buy one when it is released as I lack the funds

  4. jj says

    yea, i wish the case was nicer too. agree with you larry about the 09 UHR. even its book it came with is nice. oh well, i’m still in for 1 of these.

  5. says

    I’m on the fence about this.

    I’m in the camp that thinks it has little chance to appreciate, but it is shaping up to be fairly attractive piece in terms of design quality. The problem is a very steep price tag, and I just spent a lot of $$$ on the two Jackie O’ FS coins.

  6. Tinto says

    @Larry

    Yeah, the UHR’s case is the best .

    @Cargrisp

    That one about “black satin lined, velvet ..” the Mint trying to make it sound sexy somehow (NOT)

  7. Joe #2 says

    Well, The Royal Canadian Mint ships there coins mainly in those clam shell boxes… Even the .99999’s are shipped that way.
    Hmmmmmmmmmm… tough choice……..lol

  8. Joe #2 says

    Larry ( and everyone else ). I’m wondering ( for whomever buys one ), If they can get one of those red oak or solid wood box to fit the coin????

  9. cagcrisp says

    @Sith, “The mint is very confident on this one”. Confident or running scared?…

    I think the Mint in running a bluff. “high-demand item”, “Customers should be on the website at noon July 30”, “under two minutes”, “handle thousands of customers”…

    They just sold 17,000 of an item for $57.95 and you never saw any of these statements and YET they are trying to sell 50,000 of an item for $1,590.00 (or $1,540.00) and NOW they get all Concerned that IF you are Not on there at High Noon with all the Thousands of Orders being completed in Under two Minutes, that you will not get one…

    Either they are confident or running scared…

  10. ClevelandRocks says

    You do get an extra 0.00009 Oz of gold from up North!

    That’s a retail value of 10 cents.

    I know our hobby is doomed since my new keyboard doesn’t even have a “c” cent abbreviation sign on it. Pretty soon kids won’t even know what a cent sign is or even what coins are…

  11. ClevelandRocks says

    As I pointed out before, the HR coin has a “JK” embossed on the obverse. My kids use that as “Joking” or “Just Kidding”.

  12. gary says

    The Mint is not running scared. They just want to let people know that they have a better chance to get their coins faster if they order at noon. I really do believe that there will be very brisk sales on opening day but I also expect many sales to get backorder status. These coins will sell at least through the end of 2015. An expensive gold item in cheesy packaging. The Mint will make their $$$ on this.
    I don’t have the funds to buy this coin and if I did I still would not get one.

  13. Tom P. - MA says

    @ClevelandRocks Now I’m beginning to seriously doubt the age you claim to be. The lack of a cents symbol on a typewriter? I used to whine about that.

    Back on topic. An interesting coin, but it’s competing with other interesting coins. There are a limited amount of buyers of 1 oz gold coins. A mintage of 50,000 will not sell out anytime soon. I almost bought the Kennedy gold coin expecting demand to be through the roof, luckily I didn’t.

  14. Dustyroads says

    cagcrisp, U.S. Mint Public Affairs Specialist Lateefah Simms is neither pounding the table or running scared, she is only doing lip service. Even if she did have a good idea about what’s happening in sells, she’s apparently not saying more than what any shirt would.
    We all know how bad this has been handled lately. I think we’ve made a good summation of how this is going to play out.
    -Gold following the trend down.
    -The Mint lack of clarity.
    -Too many gold offerings.
    -High price tag.

    But UH8 has a nice back side, sounds like some marriages…

  15. Hidalgo says

    Silver has fallen below $15 per ounce as of this writing. How low will it go? How low will it go?

  16. Dustyroads says

    Hidalgo, A better question may be – does anyone believe silver will ever be a safe haven investment again?
    I think so.

  17. ClevelandRocks says

    Too many offerings and varieties of varieties is the death nail of modern numismatics.

  18. fmtransmitter says

    cagcrisp says
    JULY 16, 2015 AT 3:45 PM

    “Customers should be aware this could be a high-demand item. For faster ordering, customers should be on the website at noon July 30.”

    Sounds Like the Mint has a Lot riding on the Success of this coin and they are Pounding the Table…

    “black, satin lined, velvet”. That’s what I’m talking about… (NOT)…

    copy that NOT!

  19. fmtransmitter says

    I been saying this forever it seems, the biggest profit margin is on GOLD items for the US Mint…That is the big BOTTOM DOLLAR item they sell so they want to sell tons of it!

  20. fmtransmitter says

    And don’t nitpick about biggest profit margin, I mean brings in the most cash for the product to refill the accounts…:)

  21. Hidalgo says

    @fmtransmitter – gold and platinum as investments: the risks are high, but so are the rewards.

  22. Ends in Error says

    At some point the US Mint will put out new product and very few will care or notice. Will this be the product it happens with?

    Probably not but the day is comming.

    Personally the day has arrived for me. I could care less about this hi relief bullion piece. Give it a few more years and these special bullion coins will seem like round art bars.

  23. Hidalgo says

    Someone posted that the ordering limits for the Eisenhower Coin and Currency set have been lowered. What is the new limit and where is the information posted?

  24. Ikaika says

    I am sure the mint website will handle the HR coin orders just fine. I do not believe it will be as busy as for the Truman set.

  25. rhiggs says

    I will sit this one out. If I decide to get one, I will buy one for near spot on the aftermarket.

  26. Ends in Error says

    Any bets that on July 30 these HR’S will be on immediate backorder.

    Deju Vu all over again

    😉

    Get your slabbed First Day 70’s on
    July 30 from the usual sellers.

    🙂

  27. Zaz says

    You think the Mint is worried about having an expensive misfire on their hands? Really? When all the hype and heat surrounding a release is coming from the Mint itself there is cause for worry by the big wigs.

    Pros:
    Substantial chunk of metal.
    Decent design.

    Cons:
    Untested coin type in a new catagory.
    New 1oz entry in an already crowded field.
    Highest premium for 1oz.
    Too high a mintage to make it truly limited or special mintage.
    Expensive coin very few collectors can afford.
    Cannibalizes the other gold offerings, particularly the Proof Buffalo.

    You don’t needs crystal ball to see there’s a lot going against this coin. I don’t think the Mint has really truly understood its customer base and how extraordinarily fickle they are, hopping from release to release. This coin is shaping up to have disappointing sales for the Mint. That said, it will still sell and steadily for the rest of the year and into the middle of 2016.

  28. says

    It appears that the Mint, through its media spokeswoman, is trying to create a false sense of urgency for buyers of this this latest gold offering. It almost has an HSN coin show pitch to it. Now all the Mint needs to do is put up a clock and a remaining quantity countdown. You just have to laugh at the absurdity of it all.

  29. Ends in Error says

    They will need to ” DeBeers” the release of these. Let the big players have a decent quantity all slabbed up as First Day 70’s. Everyone else sees Back Order on day 1, at the opening bell.

    Do very slow shipping on the small fry orders. Stretch it out to the middle of next year, as already mentioned above by Zaz.

  30. thePhelps says

    Looks like the price of the Truman set is going up on eBay to me… it’ll be interesting to see how the 2 per HH limit affects the Eisenhower set.

  31. Jerry Diekmann says

    Cagcrisp – if you’re still taking names and numbers on this goldHR coin, put me (Jerry D) as 7,777 for the first day/weekend (whatever everyone else is estimating) and 37,777 as the final mintage. Other bloggers have already mentioned why this coin won’t sell out – it costs way too much, the Mint is way too greedy with its price structure for gold coins, there is no special reason for issuing the coin, it comes in cheap packaging,, it isn’t part of any kind of series, it is competing with too many other gold products the Mint is producing, and it just has no particular reason for existence. Yes, it is has a very nice design – I like both sides, but the coin collecting community just doesn’t have enough wealth that we can just lay out over $1,500.00 for a gold coin that, while pretty, just doesnm’t serve any purpose. I would think it would have a better reception if it were to be a one-year replacement for the gold Buffalo coin, or at least issue it in a half-ounce size. This is a very serious hit to the pocketbooks for most of us, I believe.

  32. thePhelps says

    Here is my take on the HR bullion…

    The mint is trying to build interest in a new gold bullion offering. They add a $ amount to it and call it a coin, but it is nothing more than a gold bullion medallion. The $100 value is nothing since it doesn’t take a genius to realize gold per ounce is $1150 and gold for this ounce will be $1500 – with no current upside to the purchase. Gold is trending down, there will perhaps 50,000 of these bullion “coins” on the market and there is no inherent real value in them.

    This not a classic design with a built in base to draw from.
    This isn’t even a great design to draw in marginal collectors.
    This isn’t a design that reflects a previous design which merits a higher value…

    There are no real numismatic values to the “coin” it exists to be bought at an inflated price for the mint, but the only real value it has is the bullion it is made from…which is not going up at the time of purchase. If you want to sell $1150 worth of gold – at least put a $1100 value on it when you try to pawn if off for $1500…

  33. cagcrisp says

    2015 HR LIBERTY Guesstimates:
    Opening week numbers and Final Mintage

    KCSO 13,500 31,000 18 months
    cagcrisp 17,500 50,000 as long as it takes
    thePhelps 9,500 29,500
    GoldFishin 14,892 25,900 1st 12 months
    bob r 5,800 18,500
    ClevelandRocks 4,800 Around 30k by 2018
    gary 26,325 50,000 by end of 2015
    goat 19,820 50,000
    SilverFan 5,000 25,000 pulled at year end
    A different Jeff < 2,000 20,000 or less
    a Bob 8,876 37,205
    stephen m 11,225 50,000
    Zaz 8,972 34,883
    Sith 23,000 50,000
    jj 9,217 41,510
    Don 50,000 50,000
    ips_stuff 29,000 42,000
    Steve 15,000 26,650
    DCDave 2,796 9,978
    Bernie in FL 2,478 28,920
    mattarch 1,200 28,900
    Tinto 3,300 26,200
    blackbeard 14,500 37,000
    paddy 8,350 50,000
    Jerry D 7,777 37,777 7's wild

  34. Alfred E. Numismatic says

    Let’s see… for a cool $72 K to $104.5 K, I can hog a whole hoard of 50 for my household?
    Wow, I bet the whole country will be clamoring – fighting tooth and nail to be one of the 10,000 potential lucky “households” to have that one under their belt! Come on America show us just how well off you are!

    “Cheap, and built to STAY that way” (Yes, I drive a cheap car that used to use a variation of my motto for their slogan)

  35. Jerry Diekmann says

    ClevelandRocks – You are so correct – too many varieties and too much of everything, like the US Mint is trying to morph into the Royal Canadian Mint or the Perth Mint. They are killing the golden goose – they only have a limited market of people that can pay the prices they charge and they are making way too many different items, just churning them out, with different finishes, different sizes, different designs, just going overboard, IMO. Young people aren’t coming in to this hobby primarily because they can’t afford to, and everything now has to be perfect, pristine, MS70 or nothing. People discount MS69s as somehow defective and sneer at anything lower. I remember, and it wasn’t all that long ago, when a MS65 coin would be a cherished possession – about as good a coin as you were ever going to have. Big name collectors like Louis Eliasberg used to collect MS63, MS64, and MS65 coins, and any grade beyong a MS66 was almost unheard of. Now grade inflation and the TPGs have created an ephemeral phenomenon that only perfect coins with designer labels are worth having, and you must pay dearly to have them. I don’t know how many times I have heard that the coin collecting hobby nowadays is for “rich old white men”. There is a lot of truth in that statement, I fear. i think the Mint needs to step back, and not go crazy with the numerous offerings that the Canadian and Australian mints have resorted to. mark my word, these PM offerings will one day be like the Franklin Mint productions of years ago – worth only their bullion value and maybe a very slight premium for the design. I don’t see any long term market or investment potential for MS70 and MS69 grades for modern PM coins – all the profit has taken place when the big dealers unload their MS70 gifts from the TPGs. I don’t want come across as a “Negative Ned” or being cynical, but this is what I see happening in the hobby today. Others may agree or disagree with me, but I stand by saying these modern specialties will have no holding power into the future.

  36. HarryB says

    The one thing the Mint has knowledge of that we do not is interest from the big boys, like MCM, APMEX, etc that may be asking for a good many. Even the lesser big sellers like Paradise and Pinehurst are already advertising First Day Release in TPG slabs “coming soon”. I suspect that the big buyers have already tried to order a total of 10 thousand or so, and the Mint may not have a lot more than that ready to ship the first day, hence the public comment.

  37. thePhelps says

    cag… looks like the largest participation to date in the Guesstimates game…

  38. thePhelps says

    @Dusty… I am one of the people who think the mint surveys are doing nothing to change what impacts my purchases. I have spent about 2 or 3k a year in coins from the mint and have replied on every survey I have gotten since they switched to the new “logistics” company for shipping, about the poor quality of packaging and security of my purchases. Yet every time I get another box in the mail – it contains most of my items in the bottom of an oversize box with little actual packaging in it and my coins in the bottom.

    I think the surveys have become self serving… they can say they do them – but they can’t say they read them and respond.

  39. Sith says

    A couple of month ago everyone was complaining about how the ASE and AGE needed a refresh as they have been using the same design for decades. Now the mint offers a change and everyone is upset with it because they are becoming the Perth Mint.

    Based on the comments here, this coin might be a sleeper, but at the mints price tag its a high risk. People can pick up a Kennedy next to spot but those that are waiting to do the same for the UHR are still waiting, most people on this blog labeled the UHR (too expensive and to high of a mintage) a bust and the Kennedy a winner

  40. Erik H says

    Jerry said that this hobby is for the rich but it wasn’t long ago the you could buy an Enhanced Sacagawea dollar directly from the mint for only $13.95. You don’t need to be rich, just look for value and collect what you like. On the other hand, they don’t call this the “hobby of kings” for nothing. ☺

  41. ClevelandRocks says

    Jerry D. 100% agree.
    The reason why an MS65 was cherished was because it was a REAL coin!
    You know, meant for circulation!
    All classic commemoratives were circulated.
    All the new commemoratives are slabbed and flipped. Not the real thing.
    I’m just about done.
    I like the annual sets, silver Eagles, and the 5 OZ ATBs (goes a bit against my philosophy).
    The proof Buffalo is splendid especially in OGP. The baseball coins were circus coins as are the RP clads and the HR.
    Maybe the new Director can help stop this nonsense??

  42. says

    When coin offerings languish for extraordinarily (and unnecessarily) long periods of time on the Mint’s website, it can be assumed that a saturation point has been reached. The Kennedy gold has languished and, still, the Mint has not brought this offering to a merciful end. The same fate awaits this latest, gimmicky Lady Liberty medal, disguised as a coin by monetizing it with a nominal $100. value– far less than what an ounce of gold is worth. This Lady Liberty will ever reach its stated maximum mintage of 50,000.
    Jerry, you’re absolutely spot on–there are simply too many frivolous products being pumped out by our Mint.

  43. jeff says

    JD new collectors are not coming into this hobby because its rigged against the everyday collector. Just like the stock market but I’m in the stock market let it roll, as far as coins dialed way back.

  44. jeff says

    The Republiturds are in charge of the coin market they call it “let the free market decide” HAHAHAHA
    This excludes 99% of us HAHAHAHA

  45. ClevelandRocks says

    Where’s Michael to censor ignorant comments? Aren’t the Dems ruining the country with all the PCism? Coin collecting has seriously suffered from this nonsense. The girl on the Boy Scout coin, the “everyone but the white guy” platinum, the racial and gender neutral ’15 HR trinket….

  46. Ends in Error says

    What might really tick off buyers of this desirable rarity is if spot drops to $900 , or even less. Oh won’t / wouldn’t that be a bummer?

  47. Buzz Killington says

    There are a lot of good points here, the most salient being that by Cleveland and others that coin collecting is at risk of being like stamp collecting, as coins become more rarely used.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I had the impression while most stamps are worthless (less than face value), the rare and early stamp market is still quite vigorous.

    The same is likely to be true of coins, because the rich will forever need a place to store value. The downside of coins is still limited by bullion value, and precious metals in general are likely to remain a store of value for the foreseeable future.

    However, I have stopped collecting modern base metal coins, which I think are likely to be basically worthless going forward.

    In 5-6 years, if I was looking to buy an ounce of gold, this coin would be more attractive than multi-year types, like AGE or Gold Buffaloes, because it is (presumably) a once and done.

    If I was totally bearish on gold, like the idea that it could go down in the $500-750/oz. range, I would pass on this coin. But I’m not quite that bearish on gold.

  48. jeff says

    CR,

    You are just a disgruntled Indian and a Johnny football Browns fan they both suck ..

  49. Buzz Killington says

    Excuse me though, anyone who still uses the phrase “PC” or “politically correct” is still stuck in the 1990s.

  50. Clark says

    I like the upcoming HR gold coin, but will pass because I’m spending on other coins I already collect as a hobby and for fun.

    It wasn’t that long ago that discussions on this board centered on when the Mint would stop sales of gold JFKs: before xmas 2014? Sooner? No, it’s still on sale at the Mint and we’re more than half way through the “New Year.” Now we’re having similar spirited conversations about the future value of the 2015 Liberty HR gold coin.

    Recent product offerings remind us that the US Mint, and most government mints for that matter, really aren’t interested in producing rare coins. Their missions are to mint popular coins and make sales. Every now and then an ugly unpopular coin becomes an unexpected rarity, like the Jackie Robinson commemorative gold $5 unc coin in 1997, which now sells for over $3,000 in MS70 condition. 1997 was 18 years ago and I’m not expecting another wildly valuable rare modern coin for a while. I collect for fun, not for investment. I hope the Mint cranks out as many varieties as it can because I like having choices and don’t feel compelled to buy everything minted. If you like collecting circulated coins, there are plenty out there to work with. The hobby is supposed to be fun, and I’m grateful that our Mint, the RCM, Perth and others are producing coins in that spirit. But that’s just me.

  51. Ends in Error says

    Buzz

    You definitely hit a nerve about the stamps. I used to be into Stamps as a kid. I’m still into Stamps a little , like anything with a Space connection – Mercury, Gemini, Apollo, Space Shuttle.

    One set I’ve always wanted was the Zeppelin set. But at $10,000 – forget it !

    Maybe a nice set of replicas? Yes, maybe, one day.

  52. Tinto says

    @Ends in Error
    “…..if spot drops to $900..”

    Yeah and the Mint, if it still has them in stock at that point, will not sell for less than $1,440 (that’s how I read their pricing grid for the HR)

    Oh well, 2016 is the last I will buy anything pricey (over $70 bucks) from the US Mint (Mark Twain gold , the 2016 Standing Liberty and the National Park Service gold) .., unless the Moon Landing commemorative is approved for 2019 …. ..

  53. a Bob says

    I want this but I want to save for a Lafayette a dollar more. I can’t have everything.

  54. Buzz Killington says

    I don’t disagree with what you say, Clark, about minting more coins being okay.

    But if they are going to mint a BUNCH of different coins, I wish they would be more fun than series of First Spouses, or another typical classical figure and an eagle. Nothing wrong with those, but how about something MUCH more different and interesting, that someone who doesn’t already collect coins or bullion might be interested in? Moon landing stuff is a good topic, but other popular topics are okay, too,

    They could put Game of Thrones characters on silver dollars, and the series would NEVER end.

  55. Dustyroads says

    thePhelps, I just picked up a BRP 5oz. P from the post office today, and of course it hit three sides of the box when I shook it. I really miss the old shippers, they knew how to package the coins.
    BTW, the P coin did indeed loose some of the attractive detail due to the vapor blasting. And, I’ve noticed that I get more bad looking P coins when I buy them on the sub list. From now on I’m going to just stick to manually ordering them after the initial coins move out.

  56. Clark says

    @BuzzKillington–I think we are saying the same thing. I’ve never been a champion for the US Mint, but it gets “fun” points for baseball hall of fame coins, the at-one-time reviled 5 oz silver “pucks,” the creepy reverse proof gold buffalo circus coin and several others. Perth, RCM, the U.K. Royal Mint also have more clever and sometimes ridiculous products than I can count, but I will confess to owning a couple Star Trek, Shakespeare, Olympic coins and even a strange Mohammad Ali coin that came with a large red boxing glove. They make my collection mine and I like that.

  57. says

    The Mint is trying its best to keep the coin collecting hobby in the realm of the more wealthy geriatric set by offering an dizzying array of expensive gold coin products, beginning with the ’15 gold Lady Liberty and continuing into ’16 with gold renditions of the classic circulating coins. Of course these gold products are in addition to the regular AGE and Buffalo golds.

  58. Buzz Killington says

    @Clark — We are. In an ideal world, I would own the John Lennon coin put out by one of those British territories. Maybe Alderney? How often do you get a chance to buy a coin depicting an avowed atheist? Almost never!

  59. Clark says

    Buzz–Forgot to include my Lord of the Rings coin sets minted by New Zealand Post a couple years back. They are sort of in line with Game of Thrones coinage, which I would probably buy.

  60. Buzz Killington says

    In 2025, I would love to buy a silver dollar with Griff removing his glove to expose that he is infected with grayscale. The fun would never end with Games of Thrones coins.

    Honestly, I hope one of these private mints doesn’t start making them, because I admit I *would* be tempted….

  61. Tinto says

    @Hawkster

    Yeah, and the Mint yanking all reference to a silver medal version of the HR coin (sort of like the regular person’s version of the high priced stuff) just shows how these folks want their pet product of the moment to succeed. I would have bought the silver medal but after they sort of totally erased it from the Mint website, I just said enough, I will not even buy a silver medal now .. …

  62. Jerry Diekmann says

    ClevelandRocks – I agree that the Baseball HoF coins were circus coins, but still, it was a novel approach. Now I hear they are thinking of doing the same, on a larger coin, for the 2019 Moon Landing commemorative. I personally think that is a mistake. Just stick with the tried and true gold, silver, and clad coins. It might be nice to see a silver dollar commemorative that resembles or copies the Ike dollar and its reverse. It would be a fitting tribute to Eisenhower on the 50th annivesary of his death, and the Apollo eagle always looked good to me – just make the coins in higher relief as it’s hard to see Eisenhower’s profile and the earh and the islands on the Ike dollars.

    I’m wondering if the Mint might consider putting the dual dates 1917-2017 on the JFK half dollar if they are still minting them in a couple of years. 2017 marks the 100th anniversary of JFK’s birth. Hard to believe he has been gone now over 50 years.

  63. Jerry Diekmann says

    Buzz – You make a good point. Go all the way back to 1965 and you will find that very few clad coins have any extra value. The Mint made billions of dimes and quarters, and the halves they made never really circulated. Any extra value attached to some years, like 1982 and 1983 when the Mint didn’t make uncirculated sets, is just a con job on collectors. There are NO rare dates in clad coins. Maybe that is why the Mint has come up with all these Perth-RCM variations during the last few years, as they realize that the coins being produced for circulation have little value to anyone. Back in the old days they just produced annual uncirculated sets and proof sets. Now it’s a proliferation of gimmicks to keep the administrative part of the Mint alive. otherwise, all there would be ilittle need for anyone in the Mint other than the production workers. For the collector nowadays, there are so many different variations Ican’t even keep up with everything. Please someone tell me – do they still make satin finished and burnished coins? Could anyone ever tell them from regular coins and did they ever have any extra value. The hobby is getting way too complicated. That’s wwhy I stopped collecfting coins from Canada ten years ago – now I don’t p[ay any attention to what they come up with next, because it’s all just a gimmick to get more of your money for something that will never be worth what you paid for it. We may be approaching that situation now in the USA – ouch!

  64. Buzz Killington says

    @Jerry — I assume everything modern I buy will be worth melt. It is a hedge against inflation, and an interesting hobby (to me), but DEFINITELY not a real investment.

    It would be great if metal prices stayed low for a bunch more years. It was painful buying the new stuff when silver was flirting with $50/oz. and gold flirted with $2,000/oz. We are not likely to see those days again anytime soon.

  65. says

    Cleveland Rocks,
    Until recently, many of your comments were blown off or treated with disdain by some of your fellow commenters. Your frequent use of the phrase, “circus coin” was often ridiculed by others. But you stayed the course and now many of us have come over to your way of thinking. You are now taken seriously and have, in your own way, driven home the point of the many frivolous products that can now be found in the Mint’s catalog of offerings.

  66. bob r says

    My local coin shop (and he sells a lot) considers “most” modern gold coins as bullion, as he quoted to me one time, a W mint mark is not worth the premium the mint requests, this was in reference to the buffalo gold offerings, his personal advise is to buy the bullion version only…as a avid collector of the ATB P pucks this seems to be disheartening. Another note, I bought some of the ATB bullion pucks, no way are they as beautiful as the satin P pucks, IMO

  67. bob r says

    Way off the subject but when you enter the local coin shop here they have always 5 to 6 employes in the shop, everyone packing anything from 9mm to 45 in open carry in the store, maybe the military recruiting offices should get the picture after today.

  68. KEITHSTER says

    Hey Mint how about doing the right thing and keeping the limit at 5 for the IKE set like you had said from the getgo ? I know a few people here thought they should lower it but I can only recall one complaint about being at work and to busy ? Seems all here got their orders in that wanted to? So it has to be the big boys that will gain the profits with the limit of 2 and we get to screw the pooch again so how does that feel? As for to many products what’s the problem lower mintages lower sales better chances so pick and choose our buy what you like! Just be carefull what you ask for cause you just might get it !! Oh and I HAVE TO TAKE BACK THE NICE sorry didn’t mean to yell stuff I SAID ABOUT THE mint live chat old lester told me he could cancel my Jackie O BUT THAT’S OK I know it wasn’t your fault just old mint tricks but it did cause some card trouble till I found the reason? So the 5ozers will have to wait but you drop them down and out please. So how about it mint you still have time to post the limit at 5 and give us little turds are shinny turds back and let the big boys play with their gold ? Well AnyWay Good Luck All:>:>:>:>:>

  69. Dave SW FL says

    Last year’s product schedule had 118 entries!
    Once upon a time the mint produced money. Now they produce money of NO VALUE and grossly overpriced trinkets. Oh, excuse me…the penny and nickel that people throw away are worth more than face value.

    Here’s a novel idea – make a $1,000 gold coin and sell it for $1250. That HR coin would sell out rapidly BECAUSE IT HAS VALUE! Gold goes to $900? You still have a coin worth $1,000.
    Sell a $50 SAE for $75. They couldn’t make enough of them. Let silver go to $9 an oz! I still have a $50 coin that I can SPEND if I want:-)

  70. Tinto says

    @bob r

    “…”most” modern gold coins as bullion, ….”

    And that’s what the coin dealer I have gone to (not too often) in the past prices most of my modern gold commem (not much left in my possession) … as ….bullion …

  71. Eagle One says

    I’ve concluded that the West Coast is broke and that the majority of the U.S. Coin Market’s breath resides in the East Coast – mostly NY, PENN, & MASS. Any Comments?

  72. Jerry Diekmann says

    Buzz – tThat’s a very good way to look at our hobby. You are buying because you like the history, or person, or event, or design of the coin and not for its investment potential. You are wise to consider silver and gold for what they are, a hedge against inflation, meaning that their value will increase as the value of the fiat currency, the dollar, decreases. Fior many years, the value of gold was pegged at 16 times that of silver, and it is reflected in our gold and silver coins of the first three decades of the 20th century. But that ratio is far out of whack now, and has been for many years. It could be that gold is overpriced and silver is underpriced. I personally think it is a combination of the two, but I think the true ratio of gold to silver is higher than 16 times, but not the 76 times it is currently. In any case, buy what you like and recognize any increase in value over what you paid is just good fortune for you, since you still have the beautiful coins you wanted in the first place.

  73. jeff says

    THE REPULITURDS ARE RUNNING THE ASYLUM THEY WANT YOU TO BELIEVE ITS THE DEMS, WHO HAS THE MAJORITY WE KNOW. GO HILLARY AND KEEP IT UP DONALD TRUMP YOU WILL EVENTUALLY RUN THE REPUBLITURDS ALL OUT OF OFFICE IN 4 YEARS. JMHO THEN WE GET BACK TO NORMALCY ..

  74. Piotr says

    @Dave SW FL
    Good idea of putting a higher denomination on coins than the current undervalued plan. It reflects states of affairs 100 years ago. IMHO the mint should sell AGE for $2000 with the same nominal value. ASE for $100. Not $50 or $1 (respectively).
    I don’t think there would be many people buying cars for 15 AGEs but that would make those coins worth something, not that fake paper trade.

    On another note, I agree with KEITHSTER! Why do the “BIG BOYS” always have to win!? Putting the limit down to 2/ household only makes them acquire more through their friends and family. Why can’t they buy from us? Is it wrong that we make money on them rather than the other way around?

  75. Clark says

    bob r said, My local coin shop (and he sells a lot) considers “most” modern gold coins as bullion, as he quoted to me one time, a W mint mark is not worth the premium the mint requests… .

    E-commerce has relegated local coin dealers to shady pawn shop operators. I’ve never pawned anything, but I do check them regularly for gold watches I collect. They carry guns because a lot of precious metal and cash changes hands.

    The local coin shops’ main book of business has become paying unfortunate and desperate people 1/3 of what they know a coin–bullion or otherwise–or other valuable item is worth. The flip side of this pawn shop model is to grossly exaggerate the value of the very same item for which they underpaid. That “W” mint mark or 70 grade have great value when they resell the coin.

    Sadly, local coin/pawn shops now are no better than the equally shady “gold & silver” liquidators that travel from city to city, rent hotel ballrooms and place full page ads in local newspapers inviting people to get fast cash for their coins and jewelry. They also are notorious for scamming ignorant people by paying a small fraction of what their coins are worth.

    If you must sell gold or silver coins, first sell on ebay. Ebay’s 22% fees are high, but far better than the 66% devaluation a local coin dealer imposes. *Before you list on ebay, and if you have a little more time, check with APMEX, which often pays large premiums for gold and silver coins based on collector demand and grade. They don’t apply the notion that “all modern coins are bullion” because they made a very successful business on knowing better.

  76. Rudy says

    Jeffy, let me tell you a little story…
    There once was a great forest, with huge trees and lush undergrowth. One day the undergowth got together and complained “Why do the big tress get the best sunlight and their roots get the most water?” So they decided to do something about it.
    The right side of the forest used reason and the undergrowth made a deal with the big tree. “If you protect us from the scorching sun and keep the rain from washing us away, we won’t cut you down.” The trees agreed and the right side of the forest flourished.
    The left side of the forest, however, they used emotion, and the undergrowth cut the big trees down to their size. Well, the summer sun came and scorched the undergrowth and it withered,. Then the rains came and washed them away and they all perished.

    The moral of the story…Nobody has ever been employed by a poor man. If my boss prospers, so do I.

    Also, don’t bet too heavily in the stock market…Really?

  77. cagcrisp says

    Gold JFK Availability

    75 available Sunday AM
    70 available Mon AM
    67 available Tue AM
    61 available Wed AM
    55 available Thur AM
    49 available Fri AM

  78. Erik H says

    Clark, eBay fees are 10% (or less for “top rated” sellers) & PayPal is 3% (if you had a brick & mortar using a C.C. machine it would cost you about 3% to run the transaction too). But your point is well taken. Local shops have higher overhead than e-commerce operations for the most part so they have to increase their margins somehow.

  79. Joseph says

    Or you can try Craigslist, but you need to know how to manage risks… lol

    Clark says

    July 17, 2015 at 7:30 am

    bob r said, My local coin shop (and he sells a lot) considers “most” modern gold coins as bullion, as he quoted to me one time, a W mint mark is not worth the premium the mint requests… .

    E-commerce has relegated local coin dealers to shady pawn shop operators. I’ve never pawned anything, but I do check them regularly for gold watches I collect. They carry guns because a lot of precious metal and cash changes hands.

    The local coin shops’ main book of business has become paying unfortunate and desperate people 1/3 of what they know a coin–bullion or otherwise–or other valuable item is worth. The flip side of this pawn shop model is to grossly exaggerate the value of the very same item for which they underpaid. That “W” mint mark or 70 grade have great value when they resell the coin.

    Sadly, local coin/pawn shops now are no better than the equally shady “gold & silver” liquidators that travel from city to city, rent hotel ballrooms and place full page ads in local newspapers inviting people to get fast cash for their coins and jewelry. They also are notorious for scamming ignorant people by paying a small fraction of what their coins are worth.

    If you must sell gold or silver coins, first sell on ebay. Ebay’s 22% fees are high, but far better than the 66% devaluation a local coin dealer imposes. *Before you list on ebay, and if you have a little more time, check with APMEX, which often pays large premiums for gold and silver coins based on collector demand and grade. They don’t apply the notion that “all modern coins are bullion” because they made a very successful business on knowing better.

  80. MarkInFlorida says

    At coin shows I’ve found the dealers fair. I’ve sold gold and silver eagles for more than spot (since the dealer has to pay more than spot from his wholesaler, that’s what he paid me). There are some honest dealers out there.

  81. thePhelps says

    Mark… that has been my take on coin dealers. Most are honest and fair. I don’t ever go to a pawn shop expecting to buy gold or silver. They mark the prices up so high you would have to be desparate to want something from them.

    On the other hand – I like getting cheap electronics and tools at a pawn shop. 🙂

  82. Jayarejr says

    Jeff–Is a republiturd the same as a democu*t? You should be thrown off this blog for your stupidity and crude language.

  83. Dave SW FL says

    The pawn shop in my area charges high premiums, but they don’t seem to look at dates/ mint marks ! So I have gotten some mighty good deals from them. Just sayin……

  84. Dave SW FL says

    Possible DOUBLE price reduction for the HR coin! Will it increase sales or scare buyers away?

  85. cagcrisp says

    @Dave SW FL, To get a Double price reduction, you would have to average $1,072.43 for the remaining fixes…

  86. Dave SW FL says

    That could actually happen IF we EVER get capitulation in this bear market! The grind lower is excruciating and ,I think, will have a negative effect on demand. People have become trained to believe they will always be able to buy at lower prices.

  87. The Real "Cool" Brad says

    @CleavelandRocks I don’t consider it “pc” to feature non-whites on coins. America is a diverse country. If you crave homogeny you can live in a place like China. Okay, so having a girl on a boyscout coin is an odd choice, but if this is what you think is killing the coin hobby then I think you’re a bit off. And if this is the worst that democrats do, it’s not so bad. There are more than just white men in America/coin collecting public.

  88. bobo says

    I wrote a comment on the HR coin on the link before last that said ‘your comment is awaiting moderation’ and which was then scrubbed. Has anyone had that happen to them? Apparently the new owners have criteria for scrubbing that Michael would have let through.

  89. bobo says

    What I wrote was not at all bad I think. I just said that I thought the HR Liberty woman looks Asian to me and I wondered out loud if that was a conscious but subtle strategy on the part of the USmint to draw in Asian buyers. It certainly is less overtly pandering than the British and Perth mints production of ‘year of the horse’ and ‘year of the sheep’ gold coins.

  90. sharks2th says

    @ Ikaika, et.al. – The BRP 5 oz. MS69 DMPL pops are now showing up in the PCGS pop page. We should see some for sale soon. 40 graded so far.

  91. A&L Futures says

    @ bobo,

    I too had a comment of mine “moderated.” It included links to CoinNews.net and the Federal Register. Not sure if it was “link” related or whether it had something to do with a rival blog.

  92. Joe #2 says

    I think you’re better off buying a beautiful Royal Canadian Mint 1 ounce gold bar ( as far as price is concerned) Than this coin. crazy premium considering as well gold coming down. I saw if gold stays below $1140 for several hours it could tank a lot further. ……………………………………”For those looking to establish some long exposure to gold, you are looking a pretty favorable risk/reward,” MarketWatch quoted Tyler Richey, co-editor of The 7:00’s Report. But “if $1,140 is violated for a few hours, that will be a very negative technical signal and a reason to sell.”

  93. bobo says

    Yes A&L, I previously had links to the Chinese-luring “year of the horse’ coins at the British and Perth mints. Maybe adding a link can lead to comments being scrubbed?

    I understand that Asians have an old cultural love of gold and have money. But it seems to me that these other mints are selling their soul to make cheap profits. What does the year of the horse or sheep have to do with British or Austalian history or principles? Nothing at all. US Mint, please never sell your soul!

    And note, I don’t think depicting Lady Liberty as Asian is at all selling your soul, since there are lots of Asians in America who were born and raised here, and just as American as anyone else. It would be absurd to think that an abstract concept like Liberty could only be depicted using young NW European women. It is also absurd to suggest that using a woman of another race to depict an American principle is somehow done for the sake of political correctness.

  94. Dave SW FL says

    Bobo

    ASIAN??? I just don’t see that at all. Closer to anorexic! Definitely not your father’s Lady Liberty, for sure.
    Part of the beauty of American women is the melting pot of features which has given us such a marvelous variety. I think t,he new Lady Liberty is a grand definition of that. This is NOT PC. A girl on the Boy Scout coin? Now that’s a different story!

  95. Jeff says

    Jayarejr,

    I was not referencing the Indian Nation I was referencing the Cleveland sports teams. I guess beening a foreigner you would not understand my comment.

  96. Blair J. Tobler says

    bobo – they already sold their soul in 2008:

    Director Moy discussed the significance of this new set of gold coins, saying, “The
    8-8-08 Double Prosperity Set presents a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for coin collectors and the general public. The date 8-8-08 (August 8, 2008) occurs only once every 100 years. To mark this occasion, this is also the first time the United States Mint has paired two gold coins in custom-designed packaging, making this set a unique product for the Asian-American community.”

  97. fmtransmitter says

    No 70’s for me with the Trumans..Didn’t expect any, not a big boy dealer…

  98. Sith says

    “The Mint will not produce the American Liberty Silver Medal in 2015,” Simms said. “We have not determined if this product will be released at a later date.”

    As far as having your post under moderation it does that of off certain key words (which words is anyone guess) and if you provide two or more URLs in a single post. And yes “URLs to “competitor” site are either scrubbed or edited to “friendly” URL.

  99. Dan in Fla says

    Can anyone help? Where can the sales figures of the mint be found? I have read that the Mint post there numbers but I cannot find them.

  100. sharks2th says

    @ Dan in Fla – Go to the bottom of the mint home page under the About section and click on the production and sales figures, then you can click on the most recent or another week’s report of the sales figures. I can provide the link if you can’t locate this page.

  101. sharks2th says

    Platinum closed under1k for the first time since February of 2009. How low will the pm prices go?

    I don’t see a lot of takers on the new liberty gold with the prices falling.

  102. Dan in Fla says

    Shark Thanks I found it. I saw that entry but didn’t look hard enough. Thanks.

  103. D Rittenhouse says

    Dan in Fla said:
    Can anyone help? Where can the sales figures of the mint be found? I have read that the Mint post there numbers but I cannot find them.

    Now that CoinUpdate no longer reports on the changes in sales of the weekly numismatic sales report, I decided to learn enough Google Sheets to produce my own. Why bother? For instance, the gold grid entry for current products might change next Wednesday and I’d like to know before then how sales of gold products fared the previous week. And it turns out I can easily share my little masterpiece.

    Bookmark this: U.S. Mint Weekly Numismatic Sales Report

    You’re not allowed to make changes, but you can add comments and, more importantly, you can re-sort the results. If you right-click on a column’s letter at the top, you’ll receive the offer to sort in either ascending (A-Z) or descending (Z-A) order. An interesting column to sort on is column E, Change Over Prior Week. If you sort in descending (Z-A) order, you’ll first find the products which were newly issued in the past week, and then the most popular sellers from the previous week.

    I designed this to automatically switch to using new data at 5 PM ET on Tuesday, because that is when the Mint says it will become available. Since I only wrote this in the last few days, this feature hasn’t be tested yet. If it works, then on Tuesday at 5 PM ET the date in the header will be increased by 7 days and new data will be displayed in the tables. If the Mint is slow to make the new data available, then the table will be blank until the data becomes available. Everything refreshes once a minute.

    If you click on the File option in the upper left corner, you’ll find a download feature. Unless you have a Google Drive account, any download will be a static snapshot of this report and won’t be automatically updated weekly.

    Feel free to share the link in other forums and to suggest improvements/corrections.

  104. bob r says

    Just recently sold unopened box of 5 Truman C&C, the buyer ended up being Cable Shopping Network.

  105. VA Bob says

    I don’t believe the Mint should have different prices for an ounce of gold, that seems ridiculous. I’m also not crazy about the extremely high premiums. But then the Mint always had crazy premiums. When gold was under $300 an ounce they charged over $900 for the annual four coin set (that’s less than 2 oz.), but almost $380 above spot for an once (Buff)? It takes no more effort to make a gold coin than it does a silver one. How can they justify these premiums? I can understand them not wanting to get caught with their pants down, but come on. They had no problem adjusting the pricing grid to their favor, if you all recall, a few ago. Now that the metals are in free fall, they should re-examine their pricing. Aren’t they wondering why their gold products are underperforming? 24%+ premiums are why.

  106. KCSO says

    Fellow Libertad Feens…, FYI-

    You are receiving this order status email because you purchased a 2015 7 coin Silver Proof Mexico Libertad Set from Choice Bullion.

    Small Shipping Delay

    We are writing to inform you that we have received the 2015 7 Coin Proof Libertad Sets and the Proof-Like Kilo coins.

    There was a glitch with the 7 Coin Sets in that no Certificates were included with them and we’ve been told that they were shipped via registered mail from Mexico, which the average shipping time is approximately 2 weeks. So we have all of the sets here without COAs.

    What we are going to do is begin packing the boxes so that when the COAs do arrive, we can simply slip it in the package and seal to ensure that we can have these sent out as soon as possible. This means that this year your COA will not be inside of the wood box when your set arrives, so please be sure to check the packaging so as not to accidentally discard it.

  107. Stuart Bradley says

    As of today, the Mint’s latest sales figures for the Blue Ridge Parkway bullion pucks is 42,600 sold. With the 65K cap on both kinds, that means that the P puck sales limit is now 22,400. That is a lower sales number than any P puck from 2014.

  108. says

    To all those that have provided input on the HR guesstimate, just wanted to say – Thank You, I appreciate it!

    I find it fun to see the responses we’ve gotten, though it’s also very insightful as well…

    Having been reading this blog religious since 2010, I hold many of you in high esteem and value your thoughts; I shouldn’t say it though I know more about some of you all (in a good way) than I did my ex-wife!

    Anyhoo.., the input has allowed to me make a high confidence correlation as to How the HR will sale, and What to expect long term. After years to reading and engaging in this blog, the cliche’ “Time will Tell” doesn’t necessary stand the test of time, input from collectors like you, making real-time assessments based off your years of experience determine ‘collectibility’ factors that are close to Top Dead Center.

    So for what it’s worth, keep exchanging those thoughts in a very positive and constructive manner, and making a resource a future collectors to learn from… Stack On!

  109. says

    Oh, & for those that haven’t figure it out by now and are in need of the truman set tomorrow is saturday to so you may want to be ready to go at seven thirty in the morning just saying as you never know what the mint may through your way and the rationale behind it, personal I think its collusion between the ptw (or who ever running the memphis misfits) and their pimps as too ironically things happen when you least expect shoppers to be in the mint website, like that hour on a weekend. I’m surprised that this hasn’t been a topic of discussion before though do the math, the irony is not coincidental if one looks at the last couple of weeks

  110. thePhelps says

    KCSO… I also enjoy the guesstimate game. It does pull out those who are hawkish on a certain release and those who are a bit put off by them.

    I will not be buying $1140 worth of gold for $1500 – the reality is it will be nothing more than bullion and to gain more than I spent on it I’ll have to wait for gold to increase in value. Not much of an upside to this coin IMO. Just because the US Mint makes it – doesn’t make it worth more than many other bullion rounds on the market, and that is all it is – a bullion round with a useless $100 face value – selling for $1500 – when gold is selling for $1140.

    If people are gullible enough to buy it…more power to them.

  111. Hidalgo says

    @thePhelps – I agree with you. I will not buy $1140 worth of gold for $1500 . I really don’t care how much this coin appreciates. I don’t even care for the obverse design — and coin designs are key consideration when I decide whether or not to buy a coin.

  112. Dustyroads says

    KCSO, Thank you for those warm insights. I apologizes for not showing any feeling one way or the other for the upcoming UH8 release, no need to since the fine people here have done such a good job of it. I agree with all you said, it has been a fun past few years. I hope you’re not off beyond the radar anytime some, but understand if getting your legs back takes some time sometimes. Be safe.

  113. sharks2th says

    @ Ikaika – MCM has the BRP on the bay. 19 are left at 179 each. This looks like a fair price on these early on in the sales.

  114. sharks2th says

    MCM has the BRP and the Truman listed in their email sent out a few hours ago. The Truman price seems high but I guess it depends on how badly you want one of those.

  115. Tinto says

    @thePhelps

    Yeah, I was wondering what bothered me with the gold, and maybe I guess one of it is it’s because the Mint did not even try to package it as a collector version (proof) and it is not even UHR … just my thoughts … I’m passing on this and the silver medal version if it ever gets produced … the Mint’s antics on this just turned me off … and having a large markup and the audacity to label it as “Limited” when the HH limit is a ridiculous 50 (!!!) If everyone ordered the HH limit there’d be only 1,000 buyers, whereas for the Truman C&C even if everyone had ordered at the HH limit of 5 we’d have 3,400 buyers … had to vent on this pile of ….. offering

  116. cagcrisp says

    The Big Boy just jumped prices on the bay another $10 to currently reside at $179.00 (but you do get free shipping)…

  117. cagcrisp says

    Gold JFK Availability

    75 available Sunday AM
    70 available Mon AM
    67 available Tue AM
    61 available Wed AM
    55 available Thur AM
    49 available Fri AM
    38 available Sat AM

  118. says

    Are the remaining Kennedy golds eligible for a “last release” or “last strike” designation from your favorite grading service? If not, how about “final rejects”?

  119. gary says

    @Cagcrisp… don’t you find it kind of odd that there are buyers of the Kennedy gold at the current Mint price in view of the possibility of a gold price drop discount next week? More curious is that you can get one far cheaper on Ebay instead of helping the Mint clean up their inventory!

  120. thePhelps says

    @Hawkster… I am still baffled by people sending in their coins to get a label – which just says I am one of the 1st suckers to pay the graders extra to grade my coin with this label. The Truman set is a classic example of people being blinded by BS with the label – since every coin and medal in the set has probably been shipped or close to it and qualifies as FS/ER. PT Barnum must be getting a heck of a chuckle over these…

  121. KCSO says

    thePhelps, It’s just a matter of time before the novalty of grading a modern coin wears off and the bubble goes “pop”

    One must ask, “when I go to sell in 5, 10, 20 or so years, is the collector base going to be such and have an interest in, paying me a considerable premium over what’s readily available and they’re all 69s or 70s?”

    Interesting enough, I think someone here about a year ago cited examples where the 70 prices gradually decrease more in line with market value. With a few exceptions, I have seen where this occurs.

    Have also seen where my best preserved examples are the ones in OGP

  122. gary says

    @KCSO…In my opinion, within 1 to 3 years the 70 grade coins go down considerably in value. You don’t need to wait 5 to 20 years to take a hefty loss. Lower or stagnated precious metal prices has a lot to do with it. With modern mint issues there is hardly any revived collector interest to start collecting silver and gold commemoratives and obsessively collecting gold commems and proof bullion by date is financially taxing for the average person to maintain especially when you get the likes of special mint mark, reverse proof and/or enhanced finish turds you “must” buy to have a “complete” set.

  123. Clark says

    I’m no defender of third-party grading services, but it’s unrealistic to dismiss the importance of a coin’s grade based on subtle characteristics and still be considered a serious coin collector.

    I regularly hear good friends here express desire 5 oz Nat’l Parks coins in MS69 DMPL. Is that not a grade? Does the TPG in this example not provide a valuable service which assures that if you purchase the NP coin in that grade it will be in the condition you desire for your collection? Would you rather chance a purchase of a randomly selected 5 oz N.P. coin from random sellers’ bullion tubes?

    Speaking of the difference between modern coins in grades 69 and 70, which some here often ridicule as nonexistent, I refer again to the modern Jackie Robinson gold $5 commem: In grade MS69, it now sells for ~$1,400, but in MS70, it’s going for over $3,000 and has for years.

    Fine details matter and are important to me as I assemble my collections. It seems illogical to be a coin collector who isn’t concerned about subtle differences between otherwise identical coins.

  124. thePhelps says

    Clark… I have no problem with grading coins or having coins graded. I think the problem for me personally is the graders are now becoming marketers as much if not more into selling labels etc. Those seeking the DMPL are going after a variation of the coin in a high grade. Which is fine by me – and they are actually paying extra to get a coin graded with that as the criteria.

    Grading is and has always been a part of the hobby. Your example though is kind of the rare needle in the haystack – since that is also a low mintage coin – which would tend to have far fewer perfect coins “ever” being available from all the coins minted.

    You could go to the other extreme and see people paying $86,000 for a “rare” PF70 1995 W ASE and then suddenly have a rash of coins grade PF70 shortly there after and killed the golden goose.

  125. says

    If you purchase and collect modern Mint products, consider yourself, with few exceptions, the end of the rainbow in regard to the aftermarket. Sure, flippers can still make a quick buck on some of the “hotter” new offerings. But even this strategy is a risky venture–the Kennedy gold being a prime example. There is just not enough new blood coming into the hobby to sustain a viable and optimistic future market for these collectibles. The Mint catalog is full of collector coins, sets, and medals, which means the items are not meant for circulation. As many commenters have pointed out, it is the older circulating coins that will probably be the worthy collectibles in the future–that is, if money, and particularly coinage, still retain any relevance for future generations.

  126. Clark says

    @thePhelps– Collecting has gotten more difficult as mints produce relatively high quality coins and distribute detailed information about them which in pre-internet times was difficult to access. To compete in this hobby, we rely on tools, like grading services, which can be helpful or abused. TPGs have hurt their credibility by manufacturing silly gimmicks which distract from their more valuable services. They have no one to blame but themselves for that.

    The whole point of collecting is the challenge of locating remarkable coins using our skills, intuitions and, often, the help of fellow collectors here in this forum. All are tools which can be misused. The best (and often most valuable) collections are the ones which were the most difficult to assemble for an unlimited variety of reasons. If it were easy, I doubt most of us would do it. I would love to go back in time and scoop up lots of Jackie Robinson unc gold $5s and 1995 W ASEs, I certainly was alive then and could have done so, but didn’t have the information and foresight to identify those coins as winners. If the tools of MNB and this discussion board were around back in 1995-1997, most of us would have bought those jewels.

  127. Dave SW FL says

    Clark,
    I wouldn’t be so sure about your last statement given the level of complaints about “PC” coins. I am certain that discussion would have been prevalent on this board in 1997!

  128. gary says

    @Clark… I agree with you that ATB 5 oz. bullion collectors SHOULD get TPG specimens for DMPL. In this they are getting something for the money amidst the many scruffy coins found in rolls. This makes sense for 69 grades but no sense for 70 grades unless the price difference is very slight. The problem with 70 grades is that the population will change over time and you really need to believe that both old and new collectors will adhere to that pipe dream of perfection through the years to maintain the premium paid for it, much less appreciate in value. I also think that there is a severe shortage of newcomers to coin collecting to yearly support the high value PM coins. If and when younger generations will collect modern coins I’m certain they will be intelligent enough to not spend foolishly on hairsplitting grade differences and just buy in OGP or basic 69 grade labels.

  129. Hidalgo says

    @D Rittenhouse – thank you posting news of the update to the Eisenhower Coin and Chronicles set. I see that there is household order limit of 2.

    That means that this set will take much longer to sell out. Further, it will be much more difficult for individuals to hoard large quantities of these sets.

    Eisenhower is much more popular than Truman. I wonder how his popularity will impact secondary market prices for this set.

  130. gary says

    @Hidalgo… While I agree that Eisenhower is remembered more than Truman it won’t matter a whit as far as sales. The Truman C&C proved to be a speculator’s paradise and is what will drive the sales on the concocted “rarity”. I expect it will sell out 20 minutes past noon!

  131. Alex in MA says

    There is very interesting article about gold in today The Wall Street Journal by Jason Zweig

  132. Jayarejr says

    “TPG specimens for DMPL”….what ever happened to coin collecting? (And I’ve been in the game for 46 years).

  133. bob r says

    I agree with those views that this is a slow dieing hobby. I was at the hardware store and God forbid I paid with cash. In change I gave the young clerk a Kennedy half, she looked at it and asked what it was. Later that day I was in Walmart and paid with cash. I gave that clerk a Kennedy half too and she said “what is this, a dollar?” She then called one of the other clerks over to look at it, they both thought it was cool, and said they never have seen a half dollar before. From now on I will always carry some Kennedy’s in my pocket for change, they seem to be quite the attraction for the young clerks.

  134. cagcrisp says

    @gary “Cagcrisp… don’t you find it kind of odd that there are buyers of the Kennedy gold at the current Mint price in view of the possibility of a gold price drop discount next week? More curious is that you can get one far cheaper on Ebay instead of helping the Mint clean up their inventory!”

    1. I Think current inventory will be Gone before the price decrease.
    2. The Lowest from Big Boy #1 is $1,119.00 (a Savings of $46 compared to Mint) and the Lowest from Big Boy #2 is $1,194.96 ( an Additional cost of $29.96 compared to the Mint).

    SO…I guess what is more curious to me is why anyone would buy anything on the secondary market that has the Potential to be a 69 or less while you could buy an Original from the Mint with a return policy IF you do not like the coin?
    I’ve never heard of Anyone willing to pay 94% of a New car cost for a Used car. The first car I owned was Used and I bought it when I was 16 and I paid $600 and yearly insurance for a 16 year old was $450, after that I’ve bought 10 new vehicles. There are some that only buy new and there are some that only buy used. There are some that only buy from the Mint and others that don’t. IF it is something that I can Buy from the Mint I will Always buy it Directly from the Mint. It does not matter to me If I can buy cheaper elsewhere. I want New and I want to be the Only owner. I don’t plan on selling anything and I want those to know that I bought it Directly from the Mint. That’s not for everyone, but that’s how I do it…

    The only things that I don’t buy from the Mint is old Gold coins…

  135. bobo says

    Let’s be honest about that WSJ article: It is pure propaganda. Note how, as the fiat dollar reaches its exponential endgame, how hard the mainstream media controlled by the same clans that control the ‘too big to fail’ banks, are trying to discredit gold in the public’s mind. Short-term it might work to turn the serfs away from real money, but longterm, a paper dollar that can be printed out of thin air cannot and therefore will not hold value like something that cannot be printed out of thin air.

    What thing best plays the role of money? Something that is

    1. durable (doesn’t rot like wood or rust like copper or iron)
    2. divisible and combinable (unlike diamonds say)
    3. fungible (every ounce is identical – unlike lumber, diamonds, seashells etc)
    4. scarce (unlike water, land, iron, copper, or especially paper and digits!).
    5. holds value over time because it has the above properties.
    6. can serve as a unit of exchange and account because of 1-5.

    Only silver and gold have these properties. Gold is not a pet rock, because pet rocks don’t have the above properties. If we lived on a different world where PMs were plentiful they would fail as money too. But we live on Earth where they are rare and hard to find. Digits and paper that can be concocted out of nothing totally fail, and so will fail.

    Amazingly, again and again, and independently, civilizations have evolved toward using gold and silver as money: The Incans, The Aztecs, The Chinese, Indians, Europeans, Africans. Why? Because nothing else has all the properties of money.

    The fact that so many of these articles are coming out now reveals just how scared these families are of losing control of the money system. (Watch the fantastic youtube video ‘The MoneyMasters’ to really understand what is going on, followed byMike Maloney’s video on youtube ‘The biggest scam in human history’ to really understand who these people are and how they hope to control all money and governments). They are losing control. They are scared that the BRICs are going to introduce an new gold-backed currency. Meanwhile they are themselves suppressing the price using naked shorts and buying up as much for themselves as they can before the paper scam blows and people lose faith in paper or digits on a computer screen. JP Morgen has recently bought more silver than the Hunt Brothers ever did. Watch what people do, not what they say. They want the dumb serfs to lose faith in real money so they can buy it up before the big reset that will be forced on the US and the whole world by the simple facts that (1) you can’t get out of debt by taking on more debt, and (2) you can’t produce real wealth by printing pieces of paper or adding zeros into an account on some FED computer screen. Only hard work and production create real wealth.

    So protect yourselves from these liars, thieves and parasites people. Allocate some of your wealth to things that the Goldman-Sachs crowd cannot concoct into existence. Most people say allocate 5-10% to PMs. I allocate 20%. I think of it as insurance against a dollar programmed to lose value under our fractional reserve banking system.

    The explosion of the number of articles trashing gold and also cash recently is a great tell. When thieves give you advice, it is best to do the polar opposite! Note that they always say gold has gone only down since 2011. They fail to point out that it is 5 times more valuable in paper dollars than it was only 15 years ago. The propaganda organs of the big banks are in full swing these days. Protect yourselves from the their ability to thieve from you. Store some of your wealth in the only things that have ever proven to be real money.

  136. says

    Bob r.,
    If the young clerks have no clue as to what a Kennedy half is, next time try paying with a Presidential dollar coin. They will think that you are giving them play money. And they may even escort you to the security office.

  137. says

    @bobo…very well said. I agree….with our debt of over 17 trillion, the dollar will fall hard at some point down the road.

  138. Sith says

    I always find these articles funny, when the Dow or S&P takes a nose dive its all buy and hold or dollar cost averaging and how the smart money is BTFD. When its PMs it’s the dumb money that is buying.

    @bobo – You are incorrect anything can serve as money. PMs are just the best at it with a proven track record. Now saying that I will sell my gold once the US Treasury sells its gold. They still spend a lot of money guarding a worthless asset, or what Helicopter Ben no longer considers money, of course that is assuming it is still there.

    Also the bankers are right, a well manged flexible currency beats the gold standard or holding gold any day of the week, I have never seen a well managed currency and if anyone else see one please let me know about it. Even the Swiss are devaluing their currency the Franc, supposedly to keep themselves “competitive.” I don’t see how robbing from savers to prop up the Euro so they can get cheaper exports makes sense but then again most of those savers are European who are finally realizing the Euro is doomed. Apparent some are finally starting to realize that gold can be manipulated but at least its more stable than the Franc. Which by the way you don’t read articles about how the dumb Europeans are piling into the Franc, and how It is time to call owning the Franc what it is: an act of faith. And bad faith at that, just ask all the people who lost their shirts when the Swiss National Bank abruptly abandoning the peg to the Euro, which two days prior it vowed to defend with the “utmost determination.”

    @Steve – The dollar will fall hard as compared to what? Gold maybe, silver very likely but we are paying a dangerous game and winning, its call “the last currency standing wins.” The Yuan is imploding, think Japan in the 80s, remember how they were going to take over the world, now we just look at them and laugh about their lost decade, and its really going on 3 decades.

    The Euro is a doomed project they just have not pulled its life support. I will not go into to many details but here is the biggest problem IMHO. The PIIGS are in trouble and what happens here when in the states when a state gets into trouble, people move, using a current example Puerto Rico is in trouble and has a debt crisis, so what do the people do they vote with their feet, they move. I remember back in the day when Texas local news papers were being sold as far north as Michigan, so people could find jobs and move. How many Greeks are allowed to move to Germany to find work? Again it called “last currency standing.” In this “game” you don’t have to out run the bear, you just have to be faster than the guy next to you.

  139. Sith says

    @Dave SW FL – Sorry to disagree but:

    “The problem we were tasked with solving, to portray Lady Liberty as a modern figure (rather than a traditional one),…retooling Miss Liberty, a symbolic figurine which has Roman roots, to reflect the growing ethnic and racial diversity of the United States .”

  140. says

    Stuart Bradley said:
    March of Dimes silver sets available at 7:30 AM.

    When I used my little Mint sales spreadsheet and sorted the current week’s Mint sales report in ascending order by One Week Change, this MoD silver set popped to the top with sales last week of -144. That made me think that this product could possibly go back on sale sometime soon.

    How on earth did you think to look at this product’s catalog page at 7:30 AM ET on a Saturday? Did you, perhaps, sign up for the “Remind Me” on this product and it actually worked?

  141. Dave SW FL says

    Sith,
    What you SAY and what you DO are two different things. That statement is there to satisfy the PC requirement. The final coin, on the other hand, I just don’t see one ethnic or racial group portrayed (IMHO.). Still stand by my “almost anorexic” eval though!

  142. thePhelps says

    Dave… I also don’t see a specific ethnicity in the image. However…assuming that is meant to be a standard 6 foot tall flag she is holding, the girl looks to be about 5’4″ or so and perfectly healthy to me. Perhaps you like your women with more… curves?

  143. Sith says

    D Rittenhouse –

    Roger Vasquez, a program manager in the Mint Headquarters’ Office of Design Management, handled the process of soliciting, coordinating and forwarding designs to the Secretary of the Treasury. He said the entire initiative, from concept discussion to design recommendation, took about seven months and included design candidates from nine Artistic Infusion Program contributors and six Mint sculptor-engravers.

    “The designs for the high-relief gold coin were strongly influenced by the CCAC. During the concept discussion meeting, the CCAC emphasized creating a ‘modern’ Liberty that reflects the nation’s diversity.

    From http://www.usmint.gov/pressroom/insidethemint/index.cfm?action=high-relief-gold-1

    Dave SW FL –

    I’m not saying she is showing any racial I’m just saying in the name of PC they went with a more modern design ” that reflects the nation’s diversity.” You have to admit she is not a traditional rendering of Liberty.

  144. Piotr says

    New lady liberty has big hands. Usually when a woman has big hands then she must be a … dude!?
    Well, that’s as diverse as it gets.
    Pass.

  145. Stuart Bradley says

    D Rittenhouse asked about why I was looking at the MOD sets on the Mint website at 7:30 AM this morning. Someone on this blog wrote a few days ago that there would be more March of Dimes sets available at 7:30 AM Saturday morning. So I signed in and refreshed the page and at exactly 7:30 AM EST the Remind Me turned red to Add to Bag and I bought three more sets.
    I immediately posted the message on this blog that they were available and when I checked back at 7:36 it let me add to the Bag but indicated that they were no longer available. Doesn’t quite seem fair to the West Coast collectors as that was 4:30 AM for them. I just did a search and I cannot find the original message but thanks to whoever posted it.

  146. Alex in MA says

    @Stuart Bradley
    There were more than 100 sets of MOD available this morning, I bought some. The first 5 sets will be shipped, the rest on backorder until first week of August.

  147. VA Bob says

    I notice a lot of people talking about the high premium of the HR. I believe we all can agree the Mint takes a generous portion of the price. And we all know that while production of the “collector” coins is not supposed to cost the taxpayer, there seems to be no objection to a tidy profit at the buyers expense. But here’s the question I pose to those here, what’s worse paying $400 over spot for an ounce of gold (such as the upcoming HR) or $105 over spot for five ounces (such as the BuRP)? Seems death by a thousand cuts is the preferred method by most.

  148. thePhelps says

    I think if memory serves me correctly – KCSO actually mentioned to check this morning for the Truman sets. I never even thought about the MOD sets when I was looking this morning. I did think the suggestion was pretty good at the time.

  149. thePhelps says

    @VA Bob… I think the question is more about the actual purchase and final product. What are you buying for $400 over the bullion price? The HR release is a totally new product with no history and is marginally artistic (IMO). There are many other bullion products on the market selling for much smaller mark ups and the return may be essentially the same, except the HR costs much more.

    I’ll gamble with $100 but not really a big gambler to throw $400 on the table for no real reason.

  150. Larry says

    I think the HSN guy might actually have read my posts on this blog. He finally said the 2006 RP gold eagle is the rarest RP coin, not the Truman RP. He also said he has purchase 4500 of the Truman sets! That seems impossible. He had the Truman set in MS 70 for$1299.

  151. Larry says

    I just tried to post something and got a “duplicate post detected”. What the heck is going on? It was not a duplicate!

  152. Dave SW FL says

    I believe Louis’s prediction of $200 for the Truman C&C is spot on. I just flipped a set on the bay very close to his number BIN and the listing sold in 2 hours!

    Elevator going UP on this set 🙂

  153. Dave SW FL says

    First Ike set presale went for $89.95.
    Second one went for $149.95.

    HH limit =2. I would (am) not selling mine ( if I can get em!)

    Makes me wonder what Ronnie will bring…………

  154. Dave SW FL says

    Sith,
    Agree there! Definitely NOT your father’s Lady Liberty ( oh, I already said that.)

    The Phelps
    Admit to liking curves 🙂 my reference is to facial features. High cheekbones but sunken look between cheek bone and lower jaw. Her arms indicate she’s been lifting.
    I feel the same way about the models on the runways of fashion shows, so it’s just personal preference.
    Guess I am one of the few who really like this LL. Hope to pick one up on the cheap after they discontinue it. Hope it doesn’t go on like the FS coins. This holdover of coins for years to me is just WRONG.

  155. VA Bob says

    thePhelps – That’s a fair response. But, every issue was a new, untried issue at one time. There were even people that thought the 2009 UHR was going to be a bust at the time. I’ve heard it referred to as knock off junk. More bullion.Too small, too expensive, etc. The rollout was contentious. I was fortunate, I got a great example early on. Full belly button (IMO PL’s are worn dies). My, how the wheels have turned in just six short years.

    Now, one might think I’m advocating for the 2015 HR. Well not exactly. The design is fair, not exciting. Liberty looks like she is looking for a place to plant that flag in the dark, holding her torch (I’m hoping she isn’t planning on lighting that flag on fire). The 2/3rds view of her seems weird, no bust or full body image as we are more accustomed too. The eagle is all right, needs some arrows in his talons, but I suppose it’s right in line with most of the nation pretending we aren’t at war.

    The 2009 UHR remains popular even though it had mint to demand. I believe all these PM offerings should be mint to demand, because it discourages excessive dealer purchases and mintages are closer to what the hobby will bear (flippers won’t like that to be sure). The truth is we don’t know how good or bad the HR will look until it’s in hand, just like the UHR. Nor do we know what it’s popularity will be. If it were 20K the low mintage folks would be all over it. The Mint shouldn’t have released the mintages, and there wouldn’t have been any complaints. We all know that once an item is no longer available from the Mint that’s when we will know if it is a winner or loser. Right now it’s all speculation with no other examples to go by. If you like it, or think you might like it, and can afford it, you should probably pick one up for yourself. Otherwise, sit it out, do a “I hate it dance” and wish for it to flop. Either way, unless anyone can see the future, we have little control over what the future brings for this issue.

  156. VA Bob says

    Also, who says the gold JFK is a flop? Certainly not the mint. The dealers and flippers aren’t loving it, because their wallets flopped on it. As for the collector in for the long haul, the jury is still out and will be for some time to come. Patients.

  157. DCDave says

    Can someone let me know where to look for the sales (and max sales # if different) for the 5 oz ATB’s from 2010 to present? Thank you.

  158. VA Bob says

    You know what else gives me a chuckle? Ebay. It’s the dealers and flippers own little HSN or CV. Take your coins to coin shops or coin shows or clubs, anywhere their are knowledgeable coin collectors. You’ll never get the ridiculous prices you can get on Ebay. So just like the TV hucksters, who prey on the ill informed, so is the Ebay coin seller. One might as well call themselves, what’s the host’s name, Mike? No different, smaller scale. Yet we still see sellers complaining about the TV guys, when they (most) would do the same if they could. Of course it’s buyer beware. Ebay is just a guide as to what the most uninformed will pay for a coin, with a few bargains thrown in from time to time.

  159. Dustyroads says

    DCDave, If this is what you’re asking about, it’s under the “About” on the Mint’s header, then just follow your way there to “Production figures”…”bullion”….”America the Beautiful”, and so on.

  160. Dustyroads says

    VA Bob, With all due respect, that’s not true for one simple reason, there are a great deal of buyers binding on the bay, you simply can’t find that at a coin show or coin shop. It’s the beauty of an auction.

  161. Dustyroads says

    VA Bob, On the other hand, I do worry that over priced items can cause damage. Next Wednesday I’m going to begin harvesting my crops, you can bet that I’m out to sell for the highest price that I can. Several years ago however, I was getting so much for what I was producing that it was beginning to cause other people to experience losses because I was pushing them into the unique situation of not being able to afford the commodity, they then were being forced to raise there own prices, thus passing the cost on to consumers. I don’t want this to happen, I am much happier with a good average price rather than an extremely high one, we all need to survive.

  162. DCDave says

    Thanks Dustyroads, but I’m actually NOT looking for the bullion numbers, I’m looking for the sales and max limits for the 5 oz ATB UNC SPs. It seems very cumbersome to look at the Mint Sales Reports to isolate the 5 oz UNC sales from 2010 to present and see what the max allowed for each 5 oz ATB has been from 2010-present. Any links to this would be helpful. Thanks again.

  163. Dustyroads says

    Is this what you’re looking for?

    Bullion (Investor) Uncirculated (Collector)
    2010 Hot Springs National Park (Arkansas) 33,000* 27,000*
    2010 Yellowstone National Park (Wyoming) 33,000* 27,000*
    2010 Yosemite National Parks (California) 33,000* 27,000*
    2010 Grand Canyon National Park (Arizona) 33,000* 26,019*
    2010 Mount Hood National Park (Oregon) 33,000* 26,928*
    2011 Gettysburg National Park (Pennsylvania) 126,700* 24,625*
    2011 Glacier National Park (Montana) 126,700* 20,856*
    2011 Olympic National Park (Washington) 104,900* 18,398*
    2011 Vicksburg National Park (Mississippi) 58,100* 18,594*
    2011 Chickasaw National Park (Oklahoma) 48,700* 16,827*
    2012 El Yunque National Park (Puerto Rico) 24,000* 17,314*
    2012 Chaco Culture National Park (New Mexico) 24,400* 17,146*
    2012 Acadia National Park (Maine) 25,400* 14,978*
    2012 Hawaii Volcanoes National Park (Hawaii) 20,000* 14,863*
    2012 Denali National Park (Alaska) 20,000* 15,225*
    2013 White Mountain National Forest (New Hampshire) 35,000* 20,530*
    2013 Perry’s Victory and International Peace Memorial (Ohio) 30,000* 17,707*
    2013 Great Basin National Park (Nevada) 30,000* 17,792*
    2013 Fort McHenry National Monument and Historic Shrine (Maryland) 30,000* 19,802*
    2013 Mount Rushmore National Memorial (South Dakota) 35,000* 23,547*
    2014 Great Smoky Mountains National Park (Tennessee) 33,000* 24,710*
    2014 Shenandoah National Park (Virginia) 24,400 28,276
    2014 Arches National Park (Utah) 22,000* 28,183
    2014 Great Sand Dunes National Park (Colorado) 21,900* 22,262
    2014 Everglades National Park (Florida) 34,000* 19,772

  164. cagcrisp says

    Gold JFK Availability

    75 available Sunday AM
    70 available Mon AM
    67 available Tue AM
    61 available Wed AM
    55 available Thur AM
    49 available Fri AM
    38 available Sat AM
    31 available Sun AM

  165. cagcrisp says

    Looks like Big Boy #1 has pulled the raw Truman C&C offerings on the bay and are Now offering the 69’s for $219.00. Says Current sales of 108 but you can’t drill down and see what prices those were Sold…

    $185.00 is Currently the Lowest BIN…

  166. says

    Stuart Bradley said:
    Someone on this blog wrote a few days ago that there would be more March of Dimes sets available at 7:30 AM Saturday morning.

    Nice story, but there was never any comment here suggesting the March of Dimes set might become available this Saturday at 7:30.

  167. cagcrisp says

    I’ve always been a big fan of Cramer and have watched him from the time he was at Goldman. I watch him every weekday morning @7:00 on CNBC. Very seldom do I watch Mad Money and when I do it just for the first few minutes before it gets into the phone call segment. I have Not heard Jim express his opinion on Gold Recently. He says 10 percent upper limit. I’ve posted on here 5-10%. I’m currently at 7.81% and for ME I would rather be closer to 5% than 10% CURRENTLY. I don’t see a Lot of reason to Buy except IF you are trying to get to the 5-10% threshold. I have posted since late fall of 2014 that I think FMV for Gold is $1,100.00. I still think that is a reasonable valuation…
    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/jim-cramers-going-gold-portfolio-235702049.html

  168. thePhelps says

    cag … it looks like the number of raw Truman sets is fading away and the new listings look to be mostly graded sets. It appears these are still going up in value, and it will be interesting to see how they do once the frenzy has dissipated.

  169. thePhelps says

    DR – I mentioned earlier on that it was suggested to look for the Truman set on Saturday morning around 7:30. It might be that the reader decided to look for all previously OOS items and stumbled across the MOD set. I know I actually had been looking to see if the Truman set popped back up yesterday morning.

  170. cagcrisp says

    Why do I like the Contests on Guessing the Mintage of coins? I holds people opinions Accountable…

    There is a terminology in gambling referred to red-boarding. It is when after a sporting event has been decided, Someone that Didn’t share an opinion will come out and say AFTER the fact their opinion. WHATEVER the outcome of the Sales for the HR there will be Someone that will say “Everyone should have known”, “With Gold dropping Everyone …”, “I’ve known for Months that…..”

    The opinions that I Respect are those that have the courage to put their opinion out there BEFORE and not after. Here are the current list of Guesstimates:
    2015 HR LIBERTY Guesstimates:

    Opening week numbers and Final Mintage

    KCSO 13,500 31,000 18 months
    cagcrisp 17,500 50,000 as long as it takes
    thePhelps 9,500 29,500
    GoldFishin 14,892 25,900 1st 12 months
    bob r 5,800 18,500
    ClevelandRocks 4,800 Around 30k by 2018
    gary 26,325 50,000 by end of 2015
    goat 19,820 50,000
    SilverFan 5,000 25,000 pulled at year end
    A different Jeff < 2,000 20,000 or less
    a Bob 8,876 37,205
    stephen m 11,225 50,000
    Zaz 8,972 34,883
    Sith 23,000 50,000
    jj 9,217 41,510
    Don 50,000 50,000
    ips_stuff 29,000 42,000
    Steve 15,000 26,650
    DCDave 2,796 9,978
    Bernie in FL 2,478 28,920
    mattarch 1,200 28,900
    Tinto 3,300 26,200
    blackbeard 14,500 37,000
    paddy 8,350 50,000
    Jerry D 7,777 37,777 7's wild

  171. cagcrisp says

    @thePhelps, You can look at some of the concluded Sales figure on the bay and pick up that there are Specific Buyers that are in the market. I don’t watch any of those coin shows but that would be my guess. Buy raw for Under $200, slap a slab on it and turn around and sell it for 30% -40% profit. Supply/demand at its finest. You know how strong the demand is and then you control you Buying input costs…

  172. says

    thePhelps said:
    DR – I mentioned earlier on that it was suggested to look for the Truman set on Saturday morning around 7:30. It might be that the reader decided to look for all previously OOS items and stumbled across the MOD set.

    Yeah, I saw the Truman set prediction at http://mintnewsblog.com/2015/07/update-2015-american-liberty-high-relief-gold-coin/comment-page-2/#comment-216483. No rationale for why the Truman set might become available again was offered and, unsurprisingly, the prediction was just plain wrong.

    If you re-read the Stuart Bradley story about how he bought his March of Dimes sets, he explained he was camped out on the MoD set’s product page Saturday morning, continually hitting refresh, until the “Remind Me” button became the “Add to Bag” button at exactly 7:30 AM. His story makes clear that he didn’t just “stumble” onto the MoD set’s availability.

  173. Stuart Bradley says

    Well, you’re right D Rittenhouse, I couldn’t remember exactly what was supposed to be available at 7:30 AM on Saturday so I was watching both the Truman sets and the March of Dimes sets. I was surprised when the MOD sets became available. I apologize for making the assumption that the original post was about the MOD sets after I spent about 20 minutes in a fruitless effort to find that post.
    My questions are: if the US Mint policy is to make new stock available at noon EST on weekdays to be fair to the West Coasters, what is this limited release of sets doing at 7:30 AM EST on a Saturday? And how could anyone know about that in advance? Is it an attempt by the Mint to get these sets to collectors rather than dealers who are not working early on a Saturday morning?

  174. Stuart Bradley says

    Also I saw no point in camping out at the Truman sets page as I had already maxed out my 5 set limit. So I was camped out on the March of Dimes silver set page. It was the 7:30 AM on Saturday that stuck in my head and it seemed like the MOD sets were the most likely opportunity. I just happened to be in front of my computer at that time yesterday morning. Sorry for the confusion.

  175. Stuart Bradley says

    Thanks for the link to the original post D Rittenhouse. Although the Truman sets were mentioned it went on to say:
    “you may want to be ready to go at seven thirty in the morning just saying as you never know what the mint may “throw” your way and the rationale behind it.”
    So to me that meant that something might become available at 7:30 AM on Saturday, either Truman sets or something else.

  176. says

    Stuart Bradley,
    I’m always searching for any sign of intelligence behind the “Remind Me” button, which is why I took interest in your story. Sadly for my search, your situation was merely a case of dumb luck. Thanks for taking the time to explain things more fully.

  177. Stuart Bradley says

    As far as I can tell the “Remind Me” button is a total waste of time as I have never received any king of email alert to product availability.

  178. thePhelps says

    The Remind Me button has only worked for me – when a product is first released. I have it set currently for the Eisenhower set – with my work email address – so as to not get caught leaving to run errands or take an employee to pick up a vehicle or something until after I’ve had time to order them. I have never had it trigger an alert at any other time.

    My current theory is that it might have to go into an email queue and trigger an email if the item is available either at the end of the day or after 24 hours. If it is still available when the server sweeps for pending emails – you’ll get an email. If it isn’t the server deletes the pending message from the queue and moves on. I think the biggest issue we are seeing is that most of the items that fall into the “Remind Me’ category – seldom are available for more than a few hours, and thus the emails never get sent.

  179. VA Bob says

    Cag – I guess I can see the fun in guessing the opening/final numbers of an issue. But it’s no more scientific than pin the tail on the donkey. Now that the Mint does initial short runs, then dribble out the coins, that skew initial sales, I would say it saps a lot the fun out of it Also, if one takes the gold JFK for an example, the Mint is going to get at or near their target mintage regardless of time on sale.

    A great or poor guess on mintages doesn’t impact my respect for one’s coin acumen (that’s fine if it’s your metric). I much prefer and respect the commenter that makes me look at a coin differently from my own perspective, or provides insight and opinion on coin and the Mint’s details or processes, a group I place you and many of the other commenter here in. Much less so on those that got a sucker on the bay to pay top dollar, especially for coins still being sold on the Mint’s website. Id rather know the actual going price from the grey sheet or, further out, from the Red Book. Why? Because when the knuckleheads buying at these inflated prices wake up and realize they overpaid and their collections are worth a fraction of what they paid, it’s going to hurt this all ready shrinking hobby. Some are willing to ride it into the ground. That said, their are people selling at fair secondary market prices.

  180. says

    I think the Remind Me function could be fixed easily.

    Whenever new units become available for sale again for a product that is marked “Currently Unavailable” then the Mint should treat that product as if it were a NEW product. In other words, the Mint would pick a date and time to make the new units available and the status on the product’scatalog page would change from “Currently Unavailable” to something like “This product will be available for sale on July 20, 2015, at 12 noon (ET).” Since the Remind Me function actually does work for new products, one would expect it to work in this case and everyone who’d signed up for a Remind Me would get one in a timely manner.

  181. Mark says

    Looks like they removed the wording..(Only available in this set ) for Eisenhower RP in the C/C set.

  182. cagcrisp says

    @Mark, They have some wording Wrong on the Description also. “The scene to the right of the figure” and “On the right of the figure”. Ones on the left and one is on the right…

  183. says

    Mark said:
    Looks like they removed the wording..(Only available in this set ) for Eisenhower RP in the C/C set.

    You’ve got a sharp eye.

    The first line in the description of the AX1 Truman C&C set begins:
    The 2015 Coin and Chronicles Set includes a 2015 Harry S. Truman $1 Reverse Proof Coin minted in Philadelphia (found only in this set!), a Truman Presidential Silver Medal, …

    The first line in the description of the AX2 Eisenhower C&C set is:
    The 2015 Coin and Chronicles Set – Dwight D. Eisenhower features a Presidential $1 Reverse Proof Coin and an Eisenhower Presidential Silver medal.

  184. Ralph says

    Seems the Mint has been doing the Saturday morning release for some time. Last year around Thanksgiving I went on their site one Sat. morning to find the 2014 FDR Coin & Medal set’s available again. Bought around 80, all there was.
    Then a week or so later, found the 2014 1st Spouse Set’s available again. Scooped up over 150 of them.
    The comment about being unfair to West Coast collectors was spot on. I am an east coast guy in CA now for 2 weeks. Missed out on the MOD set’s yesterday.

  185. thePhelps says

    The unannounced releases are about as fair as it gets… unless you are there looking at any given time when a release pops up available – your going to think it isn’t fair. There is no announced at 7:30am on Saturday be alert for products to become available… it has just happened.

  186. Hidalgo says

    I do not follow this blog 24/7, so I’m curious which companies are:

    BIg Boy
    Big Boy #1
    Big Boy #2

  187. thePhelps says

    @hilo – the reverse of the HR was actually suggested as the “New” reverse for the ASE last year.

  188. VA Bob says

    I believe the reverse of the Ike medal is the statue on top of the capitol building (minus the stagecoach in the back ground). I like this depiction of Lady liberty. Elements of this design have been used previously in the past if this is indeed the Capitol building statue.

  189. VA Bob says

    They should have struck a one year (current date or a range of dates) of the large Ike dollar for this set in silver. It would have been worth the extra 50 bucks they would have tacked on to the set. I kind of miss the large circulating dollars. I guess the small dollars are truer to reality though, less and less in your pocket as time goes by.

  190. thePhelps says

    VA Bob… I think Congress would have had to authorize the re-minting of the Ike Dollar. Since Congress seems to be stuck in neutral that probably would have never happened. I do like the Eisenhower medal reverse and it will look nice on a silver medal.

  191. Louis says

    Looks like my $200 prediction for the Truman set has essentially been realized if you check both BIN’s which are already there and ended auctions, which are close at $185, etc. I sold my extras a little too soon and should have followed my advice, but I still have 2 I am keeping long-term.

    As for the big boys, I’d say MCM and APMEX are the top 2 overall. I know as far as eBay they are the 2 biggest sellers not just of coins but of anything by sales volume and number of feedbacks and other measures.

  192. thePhelps says

    I think Jeff’s Coins was one of the early sellers – in the Big Boy class…

  193. Ends in Error says

    Did anyone back up their truck over the JFK Coin Cover on 7/16 ?

    Just wondering.

  194. thePhelps says

    Louis… I also think $200 is going to be about right. When I could buy my sets I also picked up a couple of extras – since they were already selling like crazy for twice what I was paying for them. I listed 1 and it sold in an hour – I am saving 1 and hope to get all 4 before it is done and sell them as a set. Not crazy money, but I have paid for my original purchase so I am happy.

  195. MLA says

    @Louis do you think there’s any merit to the post

    Mark says

    July 19, 2015 at 11:35 am

    Looks like they removed the wording..(Only available in this set ) for Eisenhower RP in the C/C set.

    or is this just an over sit by the mint

  196. gary says

    Hmmm, kind of makes you wonder if the Mint is considering making more RP President dollars available under another type of packaging offer like a LERP (Limited Edition Reverse Proof) Presidential Dollar set to help meet demand for RPs.

  197. Dave SW FL says

    $175 – 229 now price range for pre-sale Eisenhower C&C sets on the Bay!
    No Jeff’s Coins, or other Big Boys selling yet.
    The guy that sold the 1st on at $89 is probably kicking himself.

  198. Dave SW FL says

    Gary,
    Wouldn’t they have to exclude the Truman RP? They said (in print) that it would only be available in the C&C set.

  199. Louis says

    MLA et al. – I know many are suspicious because of the incident with the reverse proof ASE that was in the anniv set and the set with the fiver but I am pretty sure the Mint is committed to only issuing the RP dollars in these C&C sets. The wording is more likely an oversight than some kind of sneeky effort to change things. What I am interested in is how the new HH limit of 2 will affect the Ike set.

  200. Louis says

    A question for Provident buyers who have paid with CC recently. How soon did your order ship assuming everything was in stock? For the first time I paid by CC a week ago and order has not shipped. At APMEX if you pay with CC and it’s in stock they ship either same day or the next at the latest.

  201. JohnT58 says

    I do not understand the mint making these extra sets available. Why is there not a waiting list that was established on day 1 of the sales? As orders are found to be not valid, those people should be next in line to receive the sets. I believe this is the way that it used to work. It seems that was a more fair process.

  202. gary says

    @Dave… while I quite honestly do not believe that the Mint would issue more RPs in different packaging, who knows what they can cook up to cash in. I suppose the Mint would honor the statement of the RP Truman as a unique offering. Maybe they could Mint more RPs in a Limited Edition set but change to mintmark S. Hell, they did it with the ATB quarters in midstream of the program, so why not make a cash cow out of RP Prez dollars?

  203. Dave SW FL says

    T58
    FAIR? They do not care! They barely know that you are there. Unless it is not rare. They ask what they think the market will bare, then market their fare, and unless you are a BIG, you just get to stare (barring a relisted Saturday morning pair.).
    Question if you dare. The mint is just trying to max profit….it’s only fair!

  204. thePhelps says

    The mint has said all the Presidential RP will be exclusive to the Coin & Chronicles sets not just Truman. They know very well that collectors would bolt in a heartbeat if they throw these into other sets this year. They might still sell a bunch of sets, but I think they’d also lose a lot of long term buyers in the process.

  205. thePhelps says

    @JohnT58… not sure I get how that was fairer than this current process. So you got on to the wait list and waited, not knowing if you did or didn’t make the cutline for your purchase until you got an email telling you that the transaction was cancelled? Seems to me that this process is just about as open and fair as that one was, if you happen to see the item is available you can buy it and know your getting it.

    I do think they need to manage the Sold Out flag better. I’d like them to actually show products sold out whent hey don’t plan on making them available again – which is not very well done in the new system.

  206. says

    The Mint treats US statutes as mere guidelines, instead of requirements — I doubt they’ll place greater weight on press releases and catalog web pages issued by peons.

  207. Dustyroads says

    It seems obvious that the Mint has altered it’s wording in the description of the upcoming Aug 11th Ike C&C sets in an attempt to cause the sets to be held a bit longer before a sellout occurs.
    DR has made a valid point above.

  208. MLA says

    Louis thanks for your thoughts on Mints wording on Ike RP.

    The reason I have a concern is that the Mint has said they would end the sell of FS and AtB S bagged and rolled after one year, as reported on this blog, and the Mint didn’t keep there reported word.
    It would be nice to see it in writing on there site, just like on the Truman RP.

    Just my opinion.
    The initial offering will sell out within less than an hour @ a guaranteed mintage of 17000.
    As to the secondary market, sells maybe slower demand and lower $ at first, with a possible max buys @ 8500 as to only 3400 of the Truman. In the long run if there is only 17000 sold demand and pricing should be the same, and possibly better.

  209. Brad says

    Louis,

    The way I see it playing out, the Ike C & C set will take a bit longer to reach it’s full potential due to the broader initial distribution. However, I don’t think it will take very long for it to end up as a repeat of the Truman set when it comes to secondary market value. If only the same group who bought the Truman sets buy the Eisenhowers, it may take about 35-40 minutes for the 17,000 sets to sell out. However, that doesn’t allow for anyone who may have sat on the sidelines for the Truman set to jump into the fray on this one and compete for their 2 sets this time. If the buyer base is much larger due to the wild secondary market success of the Truman (which it most certainly will be), the sellout time could be as quick or even quicker despite the lower limit.

    Looking ahead to when the Kennedy is released, I figure the household order limit will be reduced to only 1 set. Since the reverse proof dollars for all of the 2015 sets have likely already been minted, I don’t look for the mintage on either the Kennedy or Johnson sets to be raised from the initially reported amounts of 25,000 and 17,000. The household order limit on the Johnson set will likely remain at 1 though, since the Kennedy sets may not last even an hour. There should be many more buyers competing for the Kennedy set who had no interest in the earlier sets.

  210. gary says

    As DR has pointed out, the Mint follows guidelines. They have great latitude on how they can accept orders, coin release dates, length of sale and monkeying around with mashups of mint marks, special finishes, special editions and special gold & silver “coins”.
    As I pointed out earlier, I do not expect the Mint to make more RP dollars (as they are in the C&C sets) . The Mint has lost much credibility due to all of the extended sales dates on their bloated offerings. And they never seem to get it right with household limits vis-a-vis mintage maximums.

  211. Dave SW FL says

    What really amazes me is that they have a monopoly, can set the rules to their advantage, and they STILL screw it up. And in so many ways.
    Sheesh, just turn it over to HSN. Or Amazon. Or SOMEBODY that knows how to run a business!
    It isn’t rocket science.

  212. Dave SW FL says

    Ike C&C update

    New high $175 a set . All 4 sets snagged by one buyer! WOW. This is one hot presale.

  213. KCSO says

    Some of you all are grossly underestimating the $$$ signs the big boys are seeing with Ike, as well as to the extent they’ll be ready to pounce.., hate to say it but some of you all won’t be getting your Ike, good luck amigos!

  214. Joe #2 says

    Dang, Gold is all over the place. One second it was down $2.50, Next minute down $37.00. Now down about $25… Capitulation???? Who knows…

  215. Piotr says

    Did anyone else notice that the “Limited” banner is not in place for the Ike set as it was and still is in place for Truman?

  216. Dustyroads says

    KCSO, Why do you say that? I don’t think this will resemble in any way like what happened with the Jacqueline Kennedy coins.
    Don’t forget that these are only being sold on line and over the phone.

  217. Joe #2 says

    The mint should really adjust there prices quick if this is at least medium term..

  218. Barry says

    Louis, Provident has been slow this year regardless of how I pay., They are last on my list at this time. After some phone conversations with them it sees to me they sell items that are out of stock and, they don’t update the website, They ship when they get more of the item in stock. That’s my two cents.

  219. Dustyroads says

    Piotr, The Mint is attempting to make the sets last a little longer. No worries.

  220. Piotr says

    It maybe an attempt to avoid a rush on the limited offering. Seems they want us to think 50000 is more limited than 17000.

  221. Dustyroads says

    World economy and India are just two factors that are weighing on gold investors minds. We should be close to a bottom. When we finally do break upward it will be bullish..imo.
    Meanwhile, we will get a price reduction. That’s what I’m talkin about!

  222. Louis says

    Thanks, Barry. Good to know.

    I would not get your panties in a bunch over the Ike set. I am pretty confident if you are ready to go at 12 noon as usual you will get your 2 sets. Plus as of a few days ago I have super fast DSL with FIOS so maybe that is why I am so confident! Insert smiley face here!

  223. Dustyroads says

    It’s been a long hard road for the Kennedy gold. With only 20 remaining, we can finally expect them to be terminated within the next three days.

  224. Louis says

    Wow! When was the last time Ag was $1100 an ounce? Around 2010 I believe. Either gold is a great deal at these levels, or the gold bugs are being exterminated! Catch a falling knife indeed! I do believe I hear the sound of Hidalgo playing his trumpet in the background as he reminds us how poorly gold has done. Ever notice that whenever the anti-gold folks want to make an argument they always pick the absolute most convenient starting point and say, “You see since 1980 gold has way underperformed stocks and bonds.” But how many of you bought all your gold in 1980 and sat on it? They never say, “Gee, if you bought gold at $200 in the mid-1990s, or $400 in the mid-2000’s, or $700 in 2008, you are still doing damn well.”

  225. ClevelandRocks says

    Still can’t figure out why there are so many fools that don’t want to wait for a price drop for the gold Kennedy in just a few days, but guess nothing should surprise me.

  226. Dave SW FL says

    gold touches 1080 tonight. Double reduction for HR becoming more & more likely.

    Long term support = previous resistance =$1000. A cuplike dip to 950 should set a nice bear trap. Powder dry. Wait till you can see the whites of their eyes. If the paper naked shorters continue to run this, the squeeze could become spectacular!

  227. cagcrisp says

    The Sky is not Falling…Geez… All the other markets that I follow (stocks, bonds, oil) look just about as normal as can be expected on a Sunday night…

  228. Hidalgo says

    @Louis – all you have to do is to look at the historical trends for gold. My projections are based on long-term projections and historical trends, rather than speculation. Check out this site and look at the 30 year trend for gold prices::

    http://goldprice.org/

    Will prices revert back to pre-2000 levels? I doubt it. However, gold has been overpriced in recent years. Those who purchased gold bullion in 2011 and 2011 are now dealing with approximately $600 per ounce losses. With that being said, I do see gold increasing in value in about 2 – 3 years. That’s based on historical trends.

    If one is going to speculate in precious metals as an investment, then one needs to buy low and sell high. Gold and other precious metals have never, ever been a good investment in the long-term. Ask any financial advisor.

    I buy gold coins because I enjoy collecting coins. Otherwise, most of my savings are invested in stocks and mutual funds. And I am pleased I have. My stock portfolio has increased by 80% in the past 5 years. So a $10,000 investment has increased to $18,000. That’s a lot better than my coin collection – sitting idle in my home – has done in the same time period.

  229. cagcrisp says

    Gold JFK Availability

    75 available Sunday AM
    70 available Mon AM
    67 available Tue AM
    61 available Wed AM
    55 available Thur AM
    49 available Fri AM
    38 available Sat AM
    31 available Sun AM
    20 available Mon AM

  230. thePhelps says

    You can purchase a graded PF69 on eBay at the same price the mint is selling the Kennedy. You can buy a PF70 Chicago release for $1450 or you can also buy an OGP for $100 less than the mint price. It seems there are a lot of buying options for the gold Kennedy’s right now.

  231. gary says

    When the Ike C&C comes out, the big pig dealers will have all of their oars out dredging for this one! They have the time & money to set up recruitment plans to try and get what they want to overcome the 2 set limit. You will know just how hot they are for this issue if you get email invitations as it gets closer to issue day to purchase for them. I fully expect a complete sellout within the first 20 minutes.
    If the Mint was earnestly concerned about the “little guy” collector they would lower the limit to just one.
    They really blew it on their setting of mintage limits for the 2015 C&C series by anticipating demand based upon sales of earlier C&C issues which did not contain the RP proof. If the mintage was unlimited and household limit set at 50 I’m certain that the Mint could have sold many more and aftermarket premiums would be far less.

  232. gary says

    @ThePhelps… Those Chicago Kennedy Proof 70s have sure lost a lot of shine in less than one year! Pity those fools who bought those last August! Loss on a single coin can be thousands!

  233. merryxmasmrscrooge says

    Coin Update September 15, 2016

    One fifth ounce 2016 Proof Gold Mercury Dime sales up to 29,483 out of limit of 50,000
    after two weeks of sales.
    Price will increase from $350 to 375 next week, so flippers you better buy before then.

    Not much interest in the reverse proof presidentsal $1 after a surge in prices up to
    $300 for Kennedys sellng on eBay (not “buy it now”) last March. A lot of people made a lot of profit albeit only 5 coin limit. Out of 20 eBay sellers on Sept. 14th the average is now down to only $85 fpr 69s which have many people reeling from the boom. The frenzy for the gold dime has dissipated interest in the Presidential $1 series which will officialy end (for now) October 5th when the Ronald Reagan coins are released. However there may be a reverse proof Reagan $1 included in the Reagan Coin and Chronicles Set release generating a final spark.

    Jeb Bush ahead of Hillary in the polls 56% to 38%.

  234. merryxmasmrscrooge says

    whoever modelled for this gold coin is HOT but HA! maybe design was just from someone’s imagination.
    Well, I’d better get back to work. I see my boss look over here. Oh, wait… I see he is also reading this website. Thank you Michael

  235. Dave SW FL says

    Gary
    Why the mint does not implement a pre-order/mint to demand/ship following full production model is beyond my understanding. There is no competition . Sales would certainly be higher. None of their product would languish in inventory for years! And expenses would be much lower. Profit would increase.
    As I said yesterday, it isn’t rocket science.
    As many have said before, it IS poor management.
    Just a lousy business model which no one cares to fix and which just continues forever – typical gubmnt agency….get used to it.

  236. Dave SW FL says

    Jeff’s coins does it again! 10 sets of Eosenhower C&C sets presale at $218.50. Boggles the mind

  237. gary says

    @Dave SW FL… Agree with you completely AND I have been long “used to it”. And the Mint continues to damage collecting modern issues (especially gold) with confections like the RP Buffalo, JFK Gold and (probably with) the 2015 High Relief. The mintages more often end up representing speculator demand and fast flipping and over time revert to prices pegged to bullion. For the 2015 High Relief the Mint has the audacity to price it more than a proof Buffalo. Seems that as precious metal bullion tracks south the Mint numismatic premium just goes up!

  238. Tinto says

    @gary
    “…and over time revert to prices pegged to bullion ..”

    And the “best” way to find that out is to try to sell the gold coin to a reseller ..

  239. The Real "Cool" Brad says

    @merryxmasmrscrooge I thought you were being serious until I read your joke on the last second. I had a good chuckle. Thanks.

  240. Billy the kid says

    Maybe the gold liberty coin should be changed to read “In Gold We Trust”…

    The Kid

  241. KCSO says

    Dusty, talking Ike C&C sell out…,

    I think 17k are already gone in under 15 (figuratively speaking)

  242. fmtransmitter says

    Ah, should have gone up to cagcrisp link. Thanks. Did you all just see the special on the History of Gold on NatGeo I think. It talks about all those “contracts” as being nothing but fake thin air nothing’s…If it isn’t in your hand, you don’t own it!

  243. gary says

    @fm… “what’s up with PM?”
    Gold is surely tanking today but silver is holding more or less steady.
    To those who are getting the 2015 High Relief on July 30 you may be in for a reward to save 2 price tier changes on opening day and save $100. You will still be forking over about a $400 premium for the bullion.

  244. Louis says

    Apparently what happened is Chinese folks who lost a lot in equities recently needed liquidity, so they dumped many tonnes of gold.

  245. Hidalgo says

    I’ve been saying for quite some time that gold and silver prices have been pricey for quite some time. I do believe that prices will fall further – in the long term. However, eventually prices will go back up. Based on historical trends, I would say that the long-term turnaround will be in about 2 or 3 years.

    Prices for precious metals have always been volatile. Unless you flip coins made of precious metals, they are not good investments in the long term.

  246. Larry says

    A@Tinto – when I tried the link to the gold article, it said you have to be a member or pay to be a member to read the article. No thanks.

  247. says

    Larry said:
    @Tinto – when I tried the link to the gold article, it said you have to be a member or pay to be a member to read the article. No thanks.

    Try clicking on the link to the Financial Times produced by this Google search.

  248. Tinto says

    @Larry

    Sorry, thought it would work … I got it off Google News … not a subscriber either ….

  249. Tinto says

    and I got the full article … so it isn’t that I didn’t read first before posting the link …

  250. Larry says

    That link worked. Thanks! Luckily I don’t have much gold. I still love my 2009 UHR and my RP Buffalo, no matter what they are worth. I will probably never sell them anyway. Gotta be a really special gold coin for me to buy it. So far, not really sold on the HR coin. Saving for next years special 2016 gold dime, quarter, half. Those may actually be worth having.

  251. says

    Louis…you made some good points on the Liberty Gold coin. Personally, I don’t think it will be very successful….I estimated about 15,000 sold the first week, but only 26,500 total. Most people that want a newly released coin, be it a gold coin, a 5 oz ATB,etc. tend to buy in the first few days. However, even if this coin remains on sell for a long time and reaches 50,000…I still think it will follow the JFK gold proof and fall well below issue price. And I heard from fellow bloggers much more hype about the Kennedy 3/4 oz proof than I have this Liberty coin. But the HH limit of 50 kills this coin imo. A HH limit of one with a total mintage of 15-20,000 would make this coin much more attractive to me.

    But what do I know?…very really little in predicting coin sells and secondary market value. This is a unique design…I love the reverse. The packaging is lame….well most of you say the 2009 UHR was the best packaging, I thought it was too big for the size of the coin and have always liked the 2008 8-8-08 Double Prosperity wood box as the best.

    While I wish I had the funds to buy the Liberty coin, I too and saving for the 2016 dime, quarter, and half dollar gold coins.

    Also, don’t forget, 2016 will be the 30th Anniversary of the gold and silver eagle coins…you know the Mint will do a Silver 30th Anniversary set, but does anyone think they may try another gold anniversary set…maybe a gold proof, enhanced , and burnished. Just something to keep in mind on possible high cost items.

  252. Dave SW FL says

    Most interesting – that junk silver premium of last week ($3.49 over spot) has been raised to $5.89 over spot!

    Folks, that’s a 40% premium over spot for JUNK circulated silver coinage! I find that astounding. And it is more expensive than APMEX’s bullion Blue Ridge Pkway puck!!!

    Question of the day is ” how high will the premium on PHYSICAL silver get?”

    They can take the paper price as low as the Wall Street crooks can get away with, but you’ll never be able to put your hands on it for that price! Thus, the mint can’t get cheap silver blanks, and thus, there will be no silver price reduction. From the Mint!

    Gold is on a schedule , and you WILL reap the price drop there 🙂

  253. Louis says

    Thanks, Steve. I agree the UHR box was too big. What I was really getting at it is paying a huge premium for a coin in a commem box does not seem right. I simply can’t afford this coin and will see if it drops like the JFK as you said.

  254. Two Cents says

    Since the HR $100 Gold has the same diameter (30.61 mm) as the JFK $75 Gold, it might also fit in the deluxe wooden case that came with the latter coin. The only caveat is that the HR coin is 1/3 thicker than the JFK coin (1 oz. vs .75 oz.), so the box lid might not close shut, unless you can pry off the thick, square US Mint logo from inside the lid.

    When buyers of both coins can compare the two after July 30, they can post on this blog and let the rest of us know if this is possible.

    You can find empty JFK cases on eBay for around $10-20, some with free shipping.

  255. cagcrisp says

    @Louis, Once again another good article that I enjoyed. You and I differed on one key aspect of the coin and that is whether it would be made into a series. You said today “I simply can’t afford this coin”. There is where You are arguing my point. The majority simply cannot afford another continuing series. The Gold market only has x number of players and right now the pie is just getting cut in smaller and smaller pieces. IF the Mint chose to make this an ongoing series, then fine, they would sell just about the same number of coins as the 1oz AGE or 1oz Buffalo and then Sales for both of these products would suffer. What until 2016 and see what happens to the commemorative Golds, the AGE’s and the Buffalo’s when the Dime, Quarter and the Half come out. The neusmismatic Gold end of the market has been in a Sales Decline for years. Adding another offering is Not going to solve the problem. Bullion is the way to go as long as the Mint continues to Maintain their Outdated Pricing Matrix that has a built in $440 premium vs. what they should do and make it a percentage of Spot LIKE they do on the Bullion side of Gold…

  256. thePhelps says

    Louis and cag… I think the mint may be missing the bigger point with these new offerings. Simply putting $100 on these and calling them coins isn’t reality. The 2009 coin sold because of the heritage of the coin.

    If I am going to spend $1400/$1500 on a coin (which I deem a coin in name only), I would be looking at the older real coins that actually did serve as currency. Trying to create a heritage for this coin isn’t going to work for most collectors.

    This is a dressed up over priced bullion offering – it has no history and no future… it is an experiment and while it might be a unique offering – they are killing it by thinking it worth more than any other basic bullion gold. I suspect part of that logic is to keep it available to mint buyers, since they don’t sell bullion to mint buyers directly… as well.

  257. Hidalgo says

    @thePhelps – I totally agree with you. As I had previously posted, I would rather spend the money I would spend on the 2015 high relief gold coin for a PCGS certified St. Gaudens double eagle. I prefer the latter’s obverse design much more than the former’s.

  258. Ends in Error says

    I’ll use the money I save by not buying the HR Bull yon to pad up my cash reserves.

    Maybe when the things sell for $600 each I’ll get one then.

    😉

  259. says

    cagcrisp sadi
    @Louis, Once again another good article that I enjoyed. You and I differed on one key aspect of the coin and that is whether it would be made into a series. You said today “I simply can’t afford this coin”. …

    Why are you trying to put words in his mouth? I’m certain he never said anything today about whether he, personally, could afford this product.

  260. thePhelps says

    @Hidalgo… had the mint put $1100 on the coin – I think they might actually have gotten buyers. Since gold is falling – it could be your purchase of this $100 coin with $1100 worth of gold is going to be worth even less by the time you get it. If the mint had opted to actually make this a coin and put a value on it that reflects the actual market – it might sell. The bottom line is there is little real value in this coin. The art isn’t worth $400 premiums over the base value of the gold. The $100 value is symbolic only and of no use. The 1 ounce of gold isn’t worth the premium and if I decided to cash it out – only a collector interested in it would pay me near what I paid for it.

    I am baffled why this coin exists at all.

  261. thePhelps says

    D Rittenhouse says
    “Why are you trying to put words in his mouth? I’m certain he never said anything today about whether he, personally, could afford this product.”

    Why are you trying to put words in his mouth? I am certain he never said anything about Louis being able to afford the product or not.

  262. gary says

    @thePhelps… I find it a problem that the Gold High Relief will not be a part of a continuing series and will just be a one-off experiment bullion round. The art of the eagle is very beautiful but the obverse does not feel like a fresh inspiring modern rendition of Liberty. Besides some of the anatomy flaws of her limbs and hands it looks like an awkward and stiff pose. Liberty lettering is way too overpowering also. If struck in proof it may have enhanced it somewhat. Can’t really see this a fit anyplace in an established collection. Certainly a $400 premium over gold spot price is way overboard in a tanking PM market. You are baffled as to why this “coin” exists and so am I! LOL

  263. Tinto says

    @thePhelps

    If the Mint had made this in proof finish, then that would have conveyed to me that they are treating this as a collector offering. But no … and they are going to put it in a possibly chintzy box ….. and no silver medal version either …

  264. thePhelps says

    After hashing out the idea of the $100 gold coin a bit it hit me why this is odd… the mint is trying to create a “Modern” coin and then used pricing for it from the 70’s. The $20 gold piece was actually worth $20. Yet this modern coin has $100 value on it and gold hasn’t been at $100 since 1973….

  265. Hidalgo says

    If the US Mint wanted a modern day beauty depicting Lady Liberty, perhaps they should have selected Jennifer Lopez, Taylor Swift, Angelina Jolie, or Charlize Theron (to name a few….) 🙂

  266. Larry says

    When the UHR came out gold was going up. So with gold going down, even if the UH coin was something really great, it would be a hard sell. One reason for the $400.00 premium might be that the coins have already been struck from higher priced gold, and the mint has to cover any downswing in the gold price. I guess when your a monopoly you can do that.

  267. thePhelps says

    Larry – I doubt the mint is hurting for gold. The US has something like 8,000 tonnes of gold and most of that bought when it was $20 and ounce…

  268. jeff says

    This new $100 bullion coin will be just that bullion. Next we will hear how the mintage is so low that people have to buy because of a low mintage, then we will have the usual mongers here count down how many are in stock and you better get one because the mint might pull the trigger and not make anymore.. HAHAHAHA Its a joke pass, move on , next

  269. Larry says

    @thePhelps – you probably know this, but the mint buys gold on the open market. If there is any gold left in Fort Knox, it’s not going anywhere.

  270. cagcrisp says

    @Larry, Based on the Lowest price in the pricing range, All 1oz AGE’s have a built in $360.00 premium. All 1oz Buffalo’s have a built in $390.00 premium and the HR Liberty has a built in $440.00 premium. That is the Gold matrix that the Mint works off of. It really doesn’t matter whether Gold is going up or down, the Mint’s premiums are the same throughout the matrix…

  271. jeff says

    cagcrisp ,

    Same old suckers continue to buy these over inflated offerings hoping and praying for a miracle that they go up and they just don’t Its sad our society acts this way, buy high sell lower. Oh I know they are going to tell us they bought it for the beauty LMAO what’ s that saying a sucker born every day its true here. GL on this coin for sure let us all know what we missed in your most eloquent way so we know what we missed and will be heart struck because we missed the opportunity NOT.

  272. NcCoinCollector says

    The HR is a nicely designed coin but it seems to be a disaster in the making for the mint. They have already failed to deliver the silver medal. Numerous commentators have pointed out the flawed asymmetrical arms and fingers, the lack of historical place and the premium. If it turns out to be the new obverse of the silver eagle it will be a hit but otherwise it’s a conundrum as to why it’s being made at all.
    If you ask me the lady US Marshall on the commenrative clad half dollar is a better rendition of modern liberty.

  273. bob r says

    I would like to buy this coin if it were available in a bullion version, I don’t need the stupid box or mint mark, just priced slightly over spot.

  274. NcCoinCollector says

    As for the PM rout I am dumbfounded that reverse proof Truman clad sells for more than 1/10 oz gold. Count me in for 2 Ike sets.

  275. bob r says

    The Ike’s will really shoot up in value with the big boys trying to buy from the peasants. This week I’ll take the kids up to Abilene to see the library and museum. It’s probably been 50 years since I visited there last.

  276. A different Jeff says

    All of the discussion about the ‘overpriced’ PM issues from the Mint overlooks the key necessity, mandated by law, that all numismatic issues are self-supporting. Thus, all the expense of design, manufacture and distribution must be covered by the purchase price. In addition, commemoratives have the additional burden of the surcharge for whatever cause the coin(s) commemorate. If you want 70 graded coins, then they have to be carefully and meticulously handled throughout the entire process, from blanks to finished coins. This means expensive when you consider the relatively low production figures compared to circulating coins. Even the bullion ‘coins’ which are sold through authorized dealers do not have that restriction, as they are NOT numismatic, but considered investment grade material for the bullion value only. Looking at PCGS AtB circulating coins populations, few grade higher than 67, as these are not handled with any care at all.

    It is probably true that over time, most of these special coins will lose their initial value and default to bullion value.

  277. Ends in Error says

    Although this design of the new H.R. Bull Gold is somewhat interesting, it’s not inspiring. If they had used a classic image like Betty Boop as lady liberty the World would be going gaga over this Coin.

    Good luck with your next illustration grade artwork , Mint people.

  278. stephen m says

    @A different Jeff, There is an awful lot of buzz on here about the HR Liberty gold coin which the majority on the blog says they don’t want. I think it’ll be a nice coin to hold and could only be worth the bullion price of gold in the future….but who knows what that price may be. Gold has a history of increasing in value not decreasing. The logic here for this one is, buy if you like it, don’t buy if you don’t like it.

  279. says

    After reading so many of the comments regarding the forthcoming UHR design the following comes to mind.

    In these days of non confrontation, politically correct, social engineering, empathy for all & redistribution of wealth, if the mint is in process of considering a coin with Caitlyn Jenner on one side & Bruce Jenner the other?

    A hologram configuration seems a possibility.

    Semper Fi

  280. The Real "Cool" Brad says

    Stop putting your political ideologies into your discussion of coins. You’re just trying to bait an argument and that’s childish.

  281. bigboy says

    THEPHELPS I agree with you on the older us coins ,I think the price the mint ask for some of these coins ,such as the new gold coin coming out on the 30th is just way to much.People get to wrapped up on these new coins , I would rather buy an older gold coin such as a beautiful $10 Indian or St Gaudens ,There are so many beautiful us coins to buy,and some are still reasonable. I have not checked prices on pcgs St. Gaudens ,but you could buy a ms 62 common date as cheap as this new bullion coin coming out,maybe even a 63,Rarcoa out of Chicago has good prices for gold coins

  282. bigboy says

    actually just checked on Rarcoa 1925 St. Gaudens ms 62 1415.00 ms 63 1485.00

    1926 Indian ms 62 950.00 ms 63 1185.00

  283. cagcrisp says

    Gold JFK Availability

    75 available Sunday AM
    70 available Mon AM
    67 available Tue AM
    61 available Wed AM
    55 available Thur AM
    49 available Fri AM
    38 available Sat AM
    31 available Sun AM
    20 available Mon AM
    17 available Tue AM

  284. says

    In the past, this would be the day when a fresh blog entry was posted, giving everyone a heads-up about impending changes to the Mint’s prices for its gold coins. Now, we need to look elsewhere.

  285. gary says

    If anyone believes that the bottom is in for gold the best approach would be to just buy a generic bullion gold ounce, toss it in the safe deposit box and keep the Mint’s $400+ premium in your pocket. The instant invention of this 2015 HR is purely to add $$$ to the Mint’s bottom line on numismatic sales. In any case, even if you would like one it seems a better play to buy it at lower PM prices later in the year (or in the aftermarket pegged as bullion)

  286. says

    I had been leaning towards buying the coin, but after reading Louis’ piece I’m seriously reconsidering. The piece seems to have almost nothing going for it, and there’s quite a long list of issues with it. I was aware of each one seperately, but when considering them all together, the outlook for the HR liberty does not look very good.

    Everything seems to be riding on whether the design causes the coin to catch fire.

  287. JBK says

    I opened my box of Truman C&C sets. On first pass the coins and medals looked good, but I am not onboard with the packaging. The waxed finish makes it hard to slide the inner part into the sleeve, which is presumably why the mInt shipped them with the open ends of the “book” facing out rather than with the spine showing in the sleeve, as I suspect it was designed to be configured. That, combined with the absurdly inadequate packing material, resulted in some sets having bruising to the edge of the insert as those edges are just exposed cardboard. For the worst one or two of the 5 sets I might just pop out the dollar coin and list on eBay by itself.

  288. thePhelps says

    JBK – if it was me I’d list the whole thing. The sets have been selling pretty briskly, and even those marked as spots on the coins have sold for over $150.

  289. JBK says

    Thx – maybe I will give it a try. I just hate the chance that someone will come back and complain…..

  290. Rob says

    I see this coin as the next RP Buffalo. Similar mintage if it sells out all 50k and there will be initial demand which will cool off quickly unless gold prices rise. I bought the RP Buffalo coin hoping for an appreciation similar to the UHR coin, but that has obviously not happened. I think I will also stay away from this coin.

  291. JBK says

    I was never seriously interested in the UHR coin but after reading Louis’s piece it reaffirmed by inclination. For me,. the cost is too prohibitive. I might take a chance on the issues next year, but not on this one. I wish the Mint had done something with a much smaller gold coin. Perhaps a series of new Liberty designs each with a corresponding larger silver medallion to show off the details on a larger scale. Such a set could have been in the $200-300 range (if 1/10 ounce gold).

  292. Mike in NY says

    @DRittenhouse your remarks about this blog are spot on. Since Michael left the new thread frequency and quality has declined.

    As far as the 2015 HR goes, I am going to pass. The design is nothing to get excited about and with sinking gold prices it is not a decent value. I see another languishing JFK gold minus the initial enthusiasm of that issue. I’m considering purchasing a graded St. Gaudens instead.

  293. gary says

    I think that there are plenty of U.S. Mint customers who purchased numismatic gold coins from 2011 to date who are already underwater on them today at PM prices still showing no inclination for a serious rebound. This 2015 HR has a mediocre obverse design and lacks the bling of the Proof finish to dazzle the buyer. The stage is set for another Mint gold concoction to go squat in 2015 and follow the 2014 JFK gold and 2013 RP Buffalo to bullion coin status. It will probably sell quite decently on opening day and it’s first week but in later months it will have to compete with those dumped on Ebay at a loss.

  294. cagcrisp says

    Reason to Not buy the Gold Liberty HR

    • $440.00 premium to Spot
    • 40% premium to Spot vs. AGE of 33% vs. Buffalo of 35% (based on exactly $1,100.00 Gold)
    • Plain wrapper for a $1,540.00 coin. It doesn’t matter whether you want it or Not, you are paying for it
    • To high mintage of 50,000. The current market for Gold will not sustain that mintage UNLESS you Mint 50,000 and keep it around for a long long time until they are all Sold
    • The Original list of Obverses, the one chosen was 10th out of 25 for me. (The other one the committee liked would not even be on my list of 25. I would have chosen what was behind Door #2)
    • Gold is trending down
    • Save your money for 2016 Gold offering and get some truly iconic designs
    • The coin is a 1oz commemorative and nothing more
    • The coin would make a real nice bullion coin

    Reasons to Buy the Gold Liberty HR

    • The 2015 Liberty will be the next 2009 UHR
    • The reverse is excellent
    • The actual obverse was better than the drawing design
    • If the offering does poorly you can always hope that low mintage will matter at some point
    • First $100 Gold piece

  295. gary says

    Nice summary cagcrisp.
    Kind of sums up that there should be no rush for MNB readers to buy the 50 household limit on opening day.
    For me the issue is moot… bottom line is I just can’t afford it.

  296. says

    Cag,
    After posting your lengthy list of reasons not to buy the Gold Liberty, you may want to give your contest entrants the opportunity to revise their estimates downward.

  297. 69- z28 says

    It’s here,got my blue ridge park way P puck ,11 DAY’s to get here, fedex stage coach I SAW IT PULL UP IN FRONT OF THE HOUSE , HE HAD A PERSON RIDING SHOT GUN he was BAD LOOKING !!!
    P.S. THE PUCK is a KNOCKOUT !!!

  298. Clark says

    Speaking of mint packaging for the 2009 UHR gold Eagle, it looks like the Mint re-purposed most of the UHR inner OGP to present gold Code Talkers medals back in late 2013. If you look closely that the photos, you may notice the UHR box was modified by replacing the wooden coin holder insert with a blue fabric gold medal holder.

    http://www.sitnews.us/1113News/112513/112513_code_talkers.html

  299. ips_stuff says

    Yes Cagcrisp,

    I would like to move my figures down to 16k to open and 32k by year end

    let the revisions begin, the horse has not left the gate yet.

  300. Clark says

    Perhaps the most stunning medal I own is the 3 inch version of the Comanche Nation (Oklahoma) code talkers medal (see link below). The obverse shows a warrior ancestor guiding the American soldier on the WWII battlefield. The artwork on the medal is very high relief and absolutely beautiful, which may explain why it was sold out at the Mint for most of the year. (It’s back now.) The 1 inch version is very nice, but nothing compared to its big brother.

    I’ve collected all 1″ code talker medals and am slowly acquiring 3″ versions that appeal to me. Because the Mint can make as many as it wants whenever it wants, they are terrible investments. As examples of numismatic art, some are remarkable.

    http://www.usmint.gov/downloads/pressroom/942-Code%20Talkers-Numunu%20Comanche-3in-obv_2000.jpg

  301. A different Jeff says

    @stephen m-
    I concur – buy it if you like it.
    My objection is not to the ‘coin’ itself, but with calling it a coin. It is not. it is a bullion round with a $100 denomination. Of all the bullion pieces the Mint produces, only the AGEs could be considered coins. They are alloyed with copper to produce 22K gold, the same composition the earliest (pre-1834) quarter-eagles, half-eagles and eagles. However, the denominations of the various weights are not consistent.
    No other bullion (ASEs, APEs, FS, AtB 5 oz, Buffalo, 2009 UHR or this one) have any significant alloy content and are unsuited to be coins. Platinum was never considered for coinage.
    As such, these are very nice pieces, but they are not coins. The denominations are meaningless, and this can get us into a discussion as to why gold is not money. But THAT is for another day.

  302. Jerry Diekmann says

    Cagcrisp – Just out of curiosity, who are “Big Boy #1” and “Big Boy #2?. Is one of them that Mike guy huckster on HSN – I think he would sell mhis mother to the highest bidder. i don’t buy any new coins from Ebay so I really don’t know who the big sellers are, but they are probably frinds of NGC, PCGS, and ANACS, I would imagine.

  303. Jerry Diekmann says

    Cagcrisp – very good list of reasons why to buy and not to buy the new gold VHR $100.00m coin. At first I was very excited about buying this coin, but after reaqding all the comments on this blog, of which about 90% are against the coin, primarily because of the more-than-greedy premium being charged by the Mint, I have to admit that my enthusiasm for the coin is just about gone. Maybe the most salient point about this new coin is that there really is no reason for this coin to have ever been created or made in the first place.

  304. Jerry Diekmann says

    Cagcrisp – thank you. I wan’t sure if HSN was one of the “big boys”.

    On another note, a lot of people have been talking about the new figure of Liberty and the comments are midly disparaging, I guess. That being said, I find the modern figure of Liberty to be so much more satisying, and beautiful, than those staid representations on all our nation’s coins in the 19th and early 20th century. In most of them Liberty looks like a fat matron, and on some of the half cents and early cents, she is hardly recognizable as a female figure. In the Barber coins Liberty looks like a masculine woman or an effeminste man, and even the “exalted” Morgan dollar shows a Liberty who must have weighed north of 200 pounds. I understand that back then plump was considered beautiful, and then everything changed in the 1920s, and slender has been the rule of beauty ever since. Having said that, I think the Liberty on this new $100.00 gold coin could have had a few pounds added to her physique, and her hands made more feminine or at least smaller – she looks like she has the hands of a lumberjack grasping that flagpoloe. But this is just my opinion – others may differ.

  305. Carlo says

    I love the reverse of the coin but the obverse is absolutely terrible. I will pass on it.

  306. John Q. Coinage says

    A contrived coin that is merely destined to be bullion, there is no market nor aftermarket. Look @ the Jackie Coins, plenty to be had w/30,000 limit & she is popular, this coin is a made up hodge podge of images..PASS

  307. John Q. Coinage says

    And the MINT did not reduce prices, keeps them at gold w/a $1,300 price, lovely…..

  308. Scott says

    I’ll have to pass on this one. I hope the big flippers end up selling theirs for melt.

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