The Queen’s Beasts vs. America the Beautiful: Comparing and contrasting two iconic modern coin series

Hover to zoom.

By Louis Golino

Two major series of bullion and collector coins — the America the Beautiful (ATB) five-ounce silver quarters from the U.S. Mint, and the Royal Mint’s Queen’s Beast series — will soon end. Both have helped to reshape the market for modern bullion and collector coins in recent years and have been major sources of revenue for their respective mints.

Examining the similarities and differences between the two series may shed some light on what modern coin buyers are looking for and on what kinds of coins do well in the marketplace. This information may also be useful to world mints contemplating similar series that run for an extended period — something already happening in the U.S.

The ATB series with 56 designs of U.S. national parks and monuments ran for 11 years, while the Queen’s Beasts ran for only five years and included 10 stylized designs of the heraldic beasts made into statues which were present for the coronation of Queen Elizabeth in 1953. The Queen’s Beasts series consists of more coins in total because it has so many variants.

The ATB coins, issued in bullion (frequently with Prooflike and deep mirror Prooflike surfaces, especially as the series continued) and vapor-blasted collector versions with a “P” mintmark, were first struck late in 2010 (and released the following year), will end early next year with the coin for the Tuskegee Airman National Historic site in Alabama designed by Chris Costello.

The Queen’s Beasts have been issued in silver and gold bullion since 2016 and since 2017 in platinum and in a wide range of sizes in silver and gold Proofs also since 2017. The 10th and final design, the White Greyhound of Richmond, was released recently in silver and gold bullion versions.

The series will end in 2021 after one more prior design is released in the various silver and gold Proofs, two more in the 10-ounce silver bullion, and three more in platinum. The series has since the beginning introduced each new design with silver and gold bullion coins but followed a different schedule for the Proof coins and the platinum versions.

An interesting similarity in the silver bullion versions of both series is how infrequently MS-70 examples are encountered, which is quite rarely for the two-ounce beasts (below 30 coins, for example, for the Griffin at NGC) and virtually never for the ATB coins (at NGC there are fewer than 20 coins total with four issues with 1-2 in this grade currently and the Frederick Douglass with 7). In their respective collector versions, 70-graded examples are seen much more often.

Comparing the Two Series

The Queen’s Beasts has been the most successful series from the Royal Mint in the postwar period after the Britannia coin series launched in gold in 1987 and silver launched in 1997. Overall, it has been more popular with buyers and collectors than the ATB coins because collectors tend to prefer shorter series and because the series offered so many options that buyers could pick a version or versions that fit their budget and interests and stick with it through the end without too much difficulty. The beasts also had the advantage of being issued mostly during years when spot silver prices have been in the $15-$20 an ounce range, apart from the final year when silver has averaged about $25. This has helped keep prices to a more affordable level. The popularity of these coins has been apparent from the frequent posting of comments from collectors in world coin blogs and message boards.

The beast series has also benefited from being easier to store since there are not as many different designs to a complete set, and it was possible to collect them in sizes of 1/4 and one ounce (in gold) and two ounces in silver and to house each one — even the 10-ounce silver bullion set — in its own custom wooden box.

With the ATB’s, on the other hand, there were some plastic albums for the bullion coins with one book per year and heavy wooden boxes designed for one year’s issues, which is a bulky and expensive way to store the whole set. And the only way to store the complete collector set assuming one even wanted to remove them from their mint boxes was to purchase an expensive, very large wooden case with removable trays that when complete contained 280 ounces, which one can’t simply leave around unsecured.

ATB’s, Silver Prices, and Mintages

The ATB’s started off when silver was $30-35 an ounce and at a time when premiums for the bullion set were initially set artificially high by dealers , which, combined with production problems later, led the Mint to delay their release and force their distributors to sell them at lower premiums of only 10% over cost — a rare move designed to help collectors. Then silver continued rising until reaching just shy of $50 in April 2011, and then descending after 2014 to the $15-20 range.

Silver prices prior to 2014 resulted in buyers becoming underwater on many of the earlier collector issues that also had much higher premiums than the bullion coins (and whose prices were recently increased to $229, over $100 above their metal value of about $125) that are sold closer to the metal value. This situation has pushed some buyers to stop purchasing the collector coins and to focus on the bullion versions, which is why their sales have exceeded those of the “P” coins.

Today the 2010 bullion coins still command a solid premium, as do most of the 2012 coins, especially the Volcanoes and to a lesser extent Denali, and several other issues like the other two coins with 20,000-mintages — the 2017 Frederick Douglass and Ozark coins and others. On the collector side, it is mainly the 2012 coins that continue to do well as well as examples graded SP-70 of many releases.

Several recent collector coins have had low mintages, but they have not to date seen much in the way of a sustained premium. For example, when everyone thought the 2017-P George Rogers Clark coin would be the new low for this version, it briefly spiked, and the same happened for other coins such as the 2019-P Frank Church River of No Return issue. The 2020-P Salt River Bay coin may set a new low, but by now it does not seem to matter that much. Prior coins that are still in demand like the Volcanoes in both versions continue to be worth more.

The large number of coins to the series, the financial commitment to complete it, and the ebb and flow of silver prices have all contributed to an overall weakening of demand for the coins, though thousands have continued to see it through to the end. And those who focused on the bullion coins have done quite well since those have benefited from stronger demand than the collector coins. And if silver continues to march upwards in the coming years, their purchases, especially of the lower-mintage key and semi-key dates should do well.

It is noteworthy that the ongoing preference of most silver stackers for American Silver Eagle coins has likely depressed sales of the five-ounce bullion coins, which should bode well for future collectors since that kept mintages of the five-ounce issues lower.

Why the Beasts Have Outperformed

As for the Queen’s Beasts, they have benefited from rising bullion values, especially for the gold versions since spot gold increased by 50% from 2016 to present. In addition, many of the earlier issues are very hard to find today probably because their mintages were so low.

The 10-ounce silver bullion beasts are perhaps the big sleepers of these coins. Most could be purchased for between $200-250 when issued and today sell for much more (for example, the Lion in that size runs over $500) and are not easy to source. This is not only because spot silver increased but also because the mintages of many of the 10-ounce coins are unusually low.

The Royal Mint does not release mintage figures for bullion coins even after sales have ended, but some information was obtained through a request filed under the UK’s Freedom of Information Act of 2000 by a UK collector (@Pampfan) whose results were posted in The Silver Forum. This person was successful in obtaining some data for 2018 but was later turned down by the mint for additional data with the mint stating that like other mints it has a practice of not releasing mintages on bullion coins. Many collectors have pointed out that other mints like the U.S. and Perth Mints actually do regularly release this information.

Based on data for bullion sales as of March 2018, the lowest two-ounce silver beast was the 2018 Black Bull with 107,564 sold, while the highest was the 2016 Lion at 259,204 and the others issued by that time were in the 200,000-range; for the 1/4-ounce gold coins the Bull was again the low at 5,066, while the high was again the Lion at 20,094; the same pattern held for the one-ounce gold; and for the 10-ounce silver, the lowest by far was the 2018 Red Dragon at 5,077 sold, while the 2017 Lion and 2018 Griffin were respectively 16,305 and 8,286.

As for the Proof coins, each has a preset mintage and since virtually all of them sold out, often quickly, those figures should in most cases be the same as the mintages. In addition, they were lowered substantially over the course of the series. For example, the 2017 Lion was set at 8,500 while the most recent coin, the 2021 White Greyhound of Richmond, was limited to only 3,800 coins. It will be interesting to see if the later Proofs do better because of their lower mintages.

Some of the larger ones (with mintages in some cases in the hundreds and lower) have come down in value compared to higher initial premiums, while the one-ounce silver Proofs have either increased or at least maintained their values, which is not something seen very often with modern silver Proof coins from most mints. In Proof 70, in particular, the one-ounce Proofs have done well, while some larger Proofs are today available for under issue price.

Comparing the Art

A final aspect worth considering is the designs and engraving. One similarity between the two series is that one side of each coin remained constant — the portrait of George Washington on the obverse of the large quarters, and the effigy of Queen Elizabeth II on the obverse of the beasts.

Another observation is that while the ATB coins are as iconically American as the Queen’s Beasts are quintessentially British, it appears the ATB coins are primarily collected by Americans while the beasts have been popular in the UK, the U.S., and elsewhere. The wide appeal of the beasts is related to their powerful and elegant designs and top-notch engraving and probably also has a lot to do with the fact that one artist — Jody Clark — created all 10 designs and the obverse, which gives them a more uniform look than the ATB coins. Not to mention that coins with mythical beasts on them tend to be a hit with collectors, which is why many private and world mints have issued such coins.

The ATB coins have a lot of great designs that many collectors admire, like the 2016 Teddy Roosevelt and 2013 Mount Rushmore coins, the 2014 Arches, the 2015 Blue Ridge Parkway coins, and others, and the designs undoubtedly work better on the large canvas of the five-ounce coins than on quarters since many are very detailed.

But there are also a lot of overlapping themes like coins with birds on them and of course many, many nature scenes that resemble each other to a degree — both being inevitable for a series focused on national parks. In addition, in the latter years of the program, the Mint, the artists, and the design review committees made a push to create more unusual designs perhaps best exemplified by the 2020 American Samoa bat coin.

Moving forward, the U.S. Mint must be aware that the sales trend on the collector side went from 27,000 coins sold for the first year to half that for the most recent coins, while bullion sales have been more steady for the reasons outlined here. If the Mint does decide to issue large silver quarters again or do fractional silver coins, they should be limited to bullion versions sold at a small premium over their melt value.

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Comments

  1. Birddog says

    2020 s proof silver eagle still available this morning at 8:00 am eastern time ,somebody on the blog said they were sold out, not quite yet

  2. Larry says

    I was watching Pawn Stars a few nights ago. A guy brings in a 1995 American Eagle Gold Proof Set, complete with the 1995 W ASE. He said his grandmother bought it when he was born as a birthday gift. Now that is a nice gift!
    He had no idea what he had, and asked $3000. Chumlee told him he would be robbing him if he only gave him $3000, so he offered $6000. The guy gets greedy and asks for $7000, but ends up taking the $6000. Which seems like a pretty fair amount to get from a pawn shop.
    Glad to see they didn’t take advantage of him, sad to see that the kid sold it. He said he was going to use the money for a down payment on a car.

  3. CaliSkier says

    eBay Collector Alert!

    FYI, especially anybody newer to collecting or thinking about buying ANY US Mint Products for 2020, slabbed in a V75 label!!!

    From an EBay sellers listing regarding TPG/NGC, maybe others?

    “any 2020 gold or silver eagle qualifies for this label.because people dont know how to read,i will clarify,this coin does not have the V75 mark,those coins come out in november.PCGS put it in this holder,i asked for the label.at the time when i had it graded according to thier site any gold or silver eagle qualifed.i did not know the mint was coming out with a coin with that mark on it.i just the label was cool and unique.pcgs lets you pick labels that they come up with from time to time,like regan label,first strike,nba hall of fame,ect.”

    Seller was upset that once someone figured out this wasn’t an actual V75 “Privy” coin, just a TPG “LABEL” with V75 on it! Just a commemorative “LABEL” not COIN!

    Read carefully and BUY the COIN, not the label! BEWARE!

    Check your excitement at the door and READ! If it seems or sounds too good to be true, especially prior to the coin actually being released!

    There will be many more sellers like this, INTENTIONALLY trying to dupe the unwary buyer, IMHO?

    The seller combined I for from multiple sources and makes statements that would make one potentially believe they are getting the real deal? If you read each word and don’t skim, he is clear on what you’ll receive, however based on info provided, I see where the buyer was duped or confused as to what they’d purchased?

    “ i have the original mint box and papers.email me with any questions.ebay took off my link to PCGS Population report,so i posted a pic of thier website with this coin on it.The Victory 75 (V75) privy mark commemorates the 75th anniversary of the allied victory in World War II. 2020 Silver & Gold Eagles. PCGS has designed a limited-edition label to memorialize and recognize this event for qualifying coins. The “V75” Special Label is available to all PCGS Collectors Club members and Authorized Dealers. you will receive the exact coin pictured.buyer welched and did not pay,thats why i relisted it.read from PCGS website about this label.”

    Beware and good luck!

  4. SteveW says

    Nice article Louis!! Great research and informative. Off topic a bit , but I still haven’t seen the Vatican copper 10 Euro “Pieta” for sale yet.

  5. Louis says

    @SteveW and @Dave SWFL – Thanks!!

    As for the Vatican coin, the proof version has not been issued yet, just the BU, which you can find on eBay . I recommend getting one in the box with the Pope on it but jeep in mind the coins do not come in capsules. I need to measure mine and see if I have a capsule. The inside of the box is felt so there should be a little give to fit an encapsulated coin.

    **I would be interested to know which of you have stuck with the ATB to the end and which version(s) you collected and who has collected the Queen’s Beasts and which versions. Thanks!

  6. IJTR says

    Barbara had a run, with 24 sold last week as opposed to negative sales the week before.

    Have a hard time understanding why 200,000 of a coin that has zero potential of being worth but half of its mint price in the future will sell out when the true low mintage wonders go begging.

  7. IJTR says

    Louis:

    Thanks for the insightful comments. At the outset the market demand for the pucks was on the bullion side, as you mention. Pandemonium and hysteria marked the introduction. With the mint’s production problems and delays, folks got really hostile.

    My preference was for the lower mintage P coins, of which I have stuck to all the way so far. We purchased some rolls from AP’s when silver was down, and except for the first high priced ones, bullion has turned out to be the better buy.

    As the market stands right now, opting for Any P pucks was a mistake. There is little or no premium out there at the present time, except possibly Hawaii and Maine. I do not regret getting any of them as collectibles that can be passed down. Both types are indeed beautiful souvenirs of America’s historic and scenic national parks.

    But, like first spouse gold, melt value is the only thing that dealers care about when offering to buy. This has been my experience at least, and I just completed bouncing my collection off of three different companies with the same result for all three.

  8. Darek says

    John Q. Coinage,
    My advice for you is to buy tissues for November 3rd because BIG GUY is sinking and nothing will save him.

  9. DaveSWFL says

    Started with the P Pucks, but when I realized they would just go to melt value, switched to the bullion and only designs I liked. They make great gifts, especially for those who have been National Park visitors.

  10. Louis says

    Thanks for the comments. @IJTR- I know what you mean. I am surprised the salt river P puck did not sell out right away and you can still buy it from dealers for under $200. It’s a bit like the low mintage burnished ASE that have not gone anywhere so far.

    Do any of you have foreign collector friends who collect the pucks? Probably not. I have foreign friends who collect the beasts, Perth lunars, etc. but not the pucks, which as I mentioned seem to appeal mainly to us yanks.

  11. John Q. Coinage says

    Louis/IJTR IMHO there is no real premium market for the burnished ATBs, bullion @ sale time except HI & AK as you noted. Every dealer I’ve asked has had NO ONE ever come inloking for aburnished ATB….Salt River is a fuguly design so it has one less reason to buy it. Tuskeege Airman is nice we’ll see if they jack up the price higher by then. Derek that’s why they have elections brah. The drive deal is so bogus it isn’t funny. Kind of like those Estonia & Saudi based Proud Boys emails. Saudi’s love 45. The GOP Senate ran a full investigation as did others & fond nothing supporting Bannon’s latest scam! Yeah everyone takes their computers to a blind repairman on the pother coast….Derek we’ll see but despite the Hillary polling boondoggle Orange Man is heading to Juluis for some squeezing. He’ll get hit with more lawsuits than the 3 Stooges got hit by pies. Check out the new Borat Rudy sticks his hand in his pants & plays with little Rudy on camera while hitting on a female Russian…. maybe a set up but that’s RUDY! Why didn’t POTUS give the Mrs. some of his uber medicine for C19???

  12. Louis says

    Keep in mind when silver is rising like now it’s harder to get more than melt. I did sell some extras in recent years and got more than I paid for a number of bullion pucks like Arches and others and probably broke even on the P coins mostly. It helps to go to a dealer who specializes in modern stuff or runs an add in the Greysheet looking for them as I did with some.

  13. Darek says

    John Q. Coinage,
    Like CNN guru Toobin did on zoom? Lol
    Or Spitzer or Wainer in NY?
    Facebook, Twitter and other political hacks doing everything they can to block NY Post articles about BIG GUY and as you noticed nobody from Biden campaign didn’t say that the emails are fake. This reminds me Poland in the 80’s when people couldn’t read or see in TV anything which was NOT in line with socialist/communist propaganda. Another beauty is that for every debate they picked liberal political hack and they think that Americans are stupid and that they don’t see what is really happening here.

    For example in some areas in NY democrats closed schools because they said virus cases are rising. Than in these hot spots they tested 16 thousand people and only 28 were positive.

  14. CaliSkier says

    @ Louis, another great, interesting and informative article! Thanks!

    In this compare and contrast article, IMO a nice addition would be to cover the Major difference in pricing when comparing the collector versions? As far as I can tell the Queens Beast 5oz collectible coins have a much higher premium over spot compared to the US Mint ATB P 5oz series? Also the additional expense in conversion from Pounds to Dollars?

    The Queens Beast collectible(?) 5oz’ers price seems to compare with 5oz coins price from the Royal Canadian Mint(RCM)? Maybe higher?

    Because of price and being a collectible vs bullion person, 5oz & 10 oz collectible versions of the Queens Beast Series were and are out of the price range I was willing to pay:

    I must say, if I could have or get a couple at a reasonable price, I’d be all over and somehow come up with the money, o purchase a 5 oz version of the Unicorn of Scotland as well as the Red Dragon of Wales! I really, really like the design and I’m also of Scottish descent!

    As always, looking forward to your next published article!

  15. CaliSkier says

    Louis, I think this is why I composed my previous re: comparing the 2?

    “ Overall, it has been more popular with buyers and collectors than the ATB coins because collectors tend to prefer shorter series and because the series offered so many options that buyers could pick a version or versions that fit their budget and interests and stick with it through the end without too much difficulty. The beasts also had the advantage of being issued mostly during years when spot silver prices have been in the $15-$20 an ounce range, apart from the final year when silver has averaged about $25. This has helped keep prices to a more affordable level. ”

    The way I linked these 2 portions of your article, confused me a little, contextually/mentally(maybe it’s just me?)?

    First part of the above says: “ more popular with buyers and collectors than the ATB coins because collectors tend to prefer ”

    Then you mention in he next sentence: “ The beasts also had the advantage of being issued mostly during years when spot silver prices have been in the $15-$20 an ounce range, apart from the final year when silver has averaged about $25. This has helped keep prices to a more affordable level. ”

    Led me to initially believe that the we were talking about “collector” when in the second/following sentence you’re referring to bullion?

    Sorry if I’m confusing anyone. Just wanted to clarify that the cost on a collectible QB Collectible 5oz is quite a bit more per oz than an ATB P 5oz’er?

    I may be way out of my lane, as I virtually know zero about the QB coins other than what you and other readers have shared over the last few years?

  16. Louis says

    @Cali- People collect the various bullion QB coins too, not just the proofs. Also, there are many different sizes offered in proof, not just the 5 oz proofs.
    As I mentioned a lot of the larger proofs do have high premiums and some have come down, but if you like proofs, you could have collected the 1 oz ones as I did which were all around $100 and which are either worth more now or the same but not less.
    Also, on the bullion side, there are the popular 2 oz silver, 10 oz silver (BU not proof), 1/4 oz gold and 1 oz gold and these have all increased in value. The main reason is metals have been mostly up not down the last 5 years esp. gold, but also premiums have increased a lot for some issues.
    For example, again as I said, the 10 oz BU coins were all in the $200-250 range (slightly more for the latest) and they sell for about $400 now except the most recent and $500-600 for the first one (which I got for $200).
    Also, you can sometimes get great deals on the big proof coins if you keep your eyes open. Someone sold a bunch of 10 oz proof silver lions for less than the retail price of the 5 oz coins about 6 months ago. But I prefer the 10 oz BU because there is les risk. Hope this helps.

  17. IJTR says

    Was not at all familiar with the beasts. Have been only into US mint offerings until now, with exceptions of a handful of Canadian items.

    Already have the bullion Kansas and Vermont pucks, just in case the mint tries to pull another sneak attack on the P variety. It is a shame the way government agencies have been weaponized against Americans. It would not surprise us to see extreme low mintages for the last 3 in order to insure a 4 second sellout to insiders with fast computers and networks of operatives.

    Why has the mintage figure not been announced for the last 3 P pucks?

    So we only have to worry about getting Tuskegee to finish the series.

    We have already decided against starting any new series collections from the US Mint. So what stunts they pull now will have no effect on our plans for future purchases.

    If we are ultimately minus the last puck because of a computer seize-up on a 4 second window, it will be sad. But since they have no appreciation value beyond melt, in the long run it will hardly matter.

    Just chalk it up to experience and it was fun while it lasted.

  18. the RCB says

    Hi Louis,

    Thanks for the reminder. I haven’t been keeping up with my Queen’s Beasts, so I went and ordered the rest I needed to complete my 2 oz collection, and I threw in a nice presentation box with capsules. The price of the final 4 I didn’t have was substantially more than the first 6, so I feel like first ones were good investments. Maybe I should have waited to buy, but this is a really cool set and the first complete collection for me for any coin.

  19. Erik H says

    The 5 oz ATB would have worked just fine as a 1 oz coin and probably would have been more popular IMO.

    Also, it’s much easier to collect 10 compared to 56, especially when the 56 coins are 5 oz each!

    Jody’s artwork for the “Beast” was on point.

  20. CaliSkier says

    Thanks Louis, all the additional info you posted helps to get a better handle on the comparison. I do appreciate it!

    The 1oz proofs at roughly $100(US?) is about what you’d pay for specialized 1 Oz proofs from the RCM? That series would be awesome to have in ones collection, in 1 Oz proof Ag or any other weight, metal, and or finish!

    Thanks again!

  21. Erik H says

    IJTR,

    I have posted several times on MNB that most dealers will only pay spot for the “P” 5 oz versions. However, I’m a firm believer that silver will reach new all time highs so I wouldn’t worry about selling down the road if you get bored with the set or have doubles than you need to liquidate. Also, on the bright side, the premium on the “P” 5 oz was always lower in price compared to both numismatic ASE.

  22. John Q. Coinage says

    I like the Beasts, the 2oz were like $35 when AG dropped. ATBs are almost done. I think an ATB US Space Nasa series would be great. Maybe 3 a year Explorer, Mercury, Mariners, Gemini, Angry Agena, Apollo, LEM, Shuttle, Shuttle on 747, etc. no they will make a series of famous Mint Directors likely!! Derek Tobin was a fool, & slick Willie as well, but the GOP has them BEAT over the years Hastert’s pedo conviction, Fallwell/Swaggert, Orange Don’s Sr. Campaign Mgrs. Jason Miller &Tim Nolan, Strom Thurman, , ROY MOORE, Mark Sanford, Jim Baker, Jeff Gannon, NEWT – what a human…….plenty o’more… Let’s just agree to disagree…

  23. Larry says

    Received the 2020 American Innovations proof set. I guess I am in the minority, but I really like this set.

  24. CaliSkier says

    The Mint has posted the information and mintage numbers of 13,750 for the November 23, “ Marsh-Billings-Rockefeller National Historical Park 2020 Uncirculated Five Ounce Silver Coin”

    We’ll see how they play the game on the Tallgrass Prairie and last coin in the series, the Tuskegee Airmen?

  25. CaliSkier says

    Awesome job by those who’ve completed the set ATB 5oz series in either burnished, bullion or both!!! If you’ve got them all at this point, there is no “cents” in not finishing the series out? Unless you’re more broke than I am or more displeased with Mints “Shenanigans” than I am, as well?

    I missed out on all of 2016, the 2017 George Rogers Clark, Ellis Island, 2019 SA missions, all of this years and unless something drastic occurs, next years “Tuskegee Airmen”.

    For a few reasons, I’ve gone into before, if I complete the series by p/u the 14 coins missing from my set, it will be on the secondary market. No way I’m buying(haha) anything else from the Mint , unless I intend to flip, IMMEDIATELY!

    Like the Au V75 Eagle coming up? As if I’ll be able to complete a transaction before they’re gone!!

    Again, if you really want this coin, you’d better have a pretty sizable buying network set up! Or be prepared to pay $10,000 out of the gate on the secondary market?

    What’s anyone else think about how much and how quick the 2020 V75 Privy American Gold Eagle will go by Cali standards, “off the RICHTER Scale”???

  26. Darek says

    CaliSkier,
    For the last 20+ years I bought a lot of gold coins, but I never picked up gold eagle. Design of buffalo gold coin was more “attractive” to me, but I will be there with you for V75 gold eagle. Hopefully both of us get lucky and I will have my first gold eagle in my collection.

  27. CaliSkier says

    Gimmick, “Curve” ball, being served up on November 19th at noon EST! This should sell out first day and have a secondary market value!

    I’m on record, saying, as Cag likes to say! Looks like maybe the US Mint might actually read MNB???

    CaliSkier says
    SEPTEMBER 18, 2020 AT 4:10 PM
    “Here’s another example of Campbell’s “WTH” soup!
    The 2020 Unc W AGE info has also been listed. They’ve decreased the mintage from 10,000 in 2019 to 9,000 in 2020.
    Here is a nice “Piping Hot” bowl of WTH! The lat sales report that I found numbers for on the 2019 W Unc AGE was 4/5/20. LRS on this report was 6,365. If the Mint was satisfied with stopping sales at 6,365 for the 2019 1oz Unc. AGE; and are hoping to maybe(???) goose sales, then they should have lowered the mintage to 7,500!
    Is it me or does this seem like a no brainer? Or just to be done with this current design reverse of AGE Uncirc’s; drop it down to either 7,000 or 6,500, to go just above the series low of 6,365.
    Better yet, create some more animosity and TPG, Flippers Dream/Collectors nightmare and drop this years down to 5,000! That would create some excitement for sure! We love, love, love Low Mintage wonders!!!
    Or even better, 9;000 announce max mintage and halt sales, somewhere in the 4,500 range and list as unavailable for 6 months that the coin is sold out and last known sales are 4,695!!!
    Oh I can see and smell the fury of collectors! The flippers and TPG and special “Big Guys” can smell the blood money!!!”

    Not sure when, however the mint has dropped the mintage from 9,000 down to 7,000! Maybe someone’s actually listening?

    Unless they do what I said and only produce 4,500, @ least this drop shouldn’t upset too many collectors?

    If you’re a collector of the Unc AGE’s this is a MUST BUY!!! The Big Guys and flippers will be all over this one, since they won’t be able to score many of the V75 Au mintage of 1,945!

    Good luck to all!

  28. Larry Gratt says

    Louis, another nice article by my favorite coin author. Your reference to MS-70 examples as rare would benefit from further research. I have never seen a proper 5 oz ATB bullion coin graded MS-70. I believe these are all NGC grading errors. To check my claim I was able to access one example. Looking up the 2019 Lowell Historical Park bullion version using the NGC Coin Explorer to find two photos of example coins: (1) MS 69 DPL and (1) MS 70. The coin shown as MS 70 should be SP 70. The obvious difference is the frosting and the “P” mint mark on the MS 70 that can be seen from available photos. I believe all the other bullion MS 70s are SP 70 or mislabeled regular size quarters. I have attempted to explain this to NGC at least 3 times but was ignored. If you find that I am incorrect I hope you can provide photographic proof as these would be rarer than the “light finish” varieties found in the specimen (SP) set.

  29. CaliSkier says

    Darek, it will be a short quick sell out of the 1,945 V75 gold eagle’s! We will both need a hell of a lot more than “GOOD LUCK”! Odds of getting through to purchase one from the mint will be virtually impossible!

    With what you said about: “For the last 20+ years I bought a lot of gold coins, but I never picked up gold eagle.” You might want to consider the 2020 Uncirculated AGE?

    Otherwise, not knowing how much you can or are willing to spend, consider this other post I made previously as well.

    “With the American Eagle’s reverse changing in 2021, if I were an investor, speculator, collector with means, I’d be taking a serious look at both the 2019 & 2020 4-coin PF AGE sets! The coins within, specifically 2020 are ripe/poised to become keys to the series? 2019 currently hold some lows. Long and or possibly short(who knows) term these may hold or increase in value? IMO I think it’s likely they will increase! Perhaps a sleeper?
    At some point in time, mintage does seeming play a part in a coins value? Not always the case, however age, mintage and design can converge at the right time and a coins value is suddenly, much greater than what was originally paid?”

    Good luck with whatever you decide!

  30. CaliSkier says

    Also keep in mind these US Mint stipulations re: 2021 AGE’s and beyond.

    CaliSkier says
    OCTOBER 1, 2020 AT 4:15 PM
    “Doh, my bad!
    Additionally, this comes from the US Mints website:(Rapt0r’s link)
    “The San Francisco-minted 2020 American Eagle One Ounce Silver Proof Coin (20EM) and the West Point-minted 2020 American Eagle One Ounce Gold Uncirculated Coin (20EH) will be the last issues of these coins featuring the current design.”

    CaliSkier says
    OCTOBER 1, 2020 AT 4:41 PM
    Here’s the Kicker, so far based on all info, I’ve managed to round up. The Mint/Mnuchin/ryder, could get creative and issue a few ASE that would “Upset” the Proverbial “AppLe Cart”!!!
    From Legislation:
    “ (4)
    (A) Notwithstanding any other provision of law and subject to subparagraph (B), the Secretary of the Treasury may change the diameter, weight, or design of any coin minted under this subsection or the fineness of the gold in the alloy of any such coin if the Secretary determines that the specific diameter, weight, design, or fineness of gold which differs from that otherwise required by law is appropriate for such coin.”
    Essentially, as far as I can tell the ONLY coins that for sure(???) won’t be minted with the current/old reverse is “ San Francisco-minted 2020 American Eagle One Ounce Silver Proof Coin (20EM) and the West Point-minted 2020 American Eagle One Ounce Gold Uncirculated Coin (20EH) will be the last issues of these coins featuring the current design.”
    Any other Mint mark, mintage limit, and finish is fair game! It’s completely and totally, WHATEVER Mnuchin and ryder, WANT!!! That’s how we’re ending up with BOTH, that’s right, BOTH mnuchin and ryder Bronze Medals!
    They can do ASE’s in ERP, Unc, EU and anything other than PF with the old reverse and Mint mark of their choice!
    They can doe the AGE’s in any other finish besides, Uncirculated. They can issue in a PF, RP, ERP, EU with any Mint mark(?), mintage limit, and finish!
    Other than gold, maybe, I don’t think anything, technically can actually prevent them from making a 2021 W PF ASE or a 2021 W 1oz AGE if they feel like it???
    Anyone, out there have more info to share on this topic?“

  31. CaliSkier says

    99+, 2020 S PF ASE’s available! Let the return, re-order, return, re-order “Olympics” begin! Available, Unavailable, available, rinse, repeat!

  32. Louis says

    @Larry- Thanks for the kind words and the suggestion.

    I know I have once in a rare while seen coins for sale on eBay for many thousands that included photos of ATB’s with MS70 labels, but I don’t recall the finish. Seems like it would be pretty easy to tell the difference between them.

  33. Hidalgo says

    @CalSkier – the 99+ 2020 S Proof ASEs are likely cancellations, purchases from expired credit cards, etc.

  34. IJTR says

    Erik – Agree with you about silver. Makes no matter if Orange Don or Aviator Joe ends up in the hot seat…the economy is toast. 3 trillion in the hole and double or triple that in 2021 to keep Delta American and United happy. There may be no food or medicine in the stores even if the average person could afford it, but there will still be contrails in the sky.

    At the moment$160 for a bullion puck looks like a bargain compared to the jacked up mint pricing.

    I am comfortable that the pucks were a good investment and make a nice, if bulky, collection.
    Not comfortable with the ASE’s however…silver has a long way to go before a $75 mint-purchased 2020 ASE will ever reach melt parity.

  35. Larry Gratt says

    Louis–I have been collecting both versions of the 5 oz ATBs since the start. I think you are referring to the Light Finish SPs for thousands of dollars.
    I have never seen a proper MS 70 photo. If anyone has a photo or can supply an NGC number I would really appreciate it!
    On this topic, NGC registry competition for complete sets and SP sets includes only one of the Light Finishes (Grand Canyon). They included other issues for a brief period but removed them quickly. Their argument for this was “accessibility.” I have asked NGC to correct this but they refuse because “this is the way we did it originally.” NGC lists the Light Finishes for ATB versions as Varieties. Their list is shorter than that at PCGS which has additional issues.
    The collecting of “Moderns” in Registry sets is not aided by actions of TPGs that are arbitrary rules and labeling differences. I would like additional comments from you and collectors on this topic.

  36. birddog says

    Larry Grant

    The only thing I have in 70 is pcgs 2017 sp George Rodgers Clark first strike and Mercantile signed also the same thing with Fredrick Douglass if any help with those pictures let me know,my ngc are 69

  37. gatortreke says

    @ Louis: Wonderful and informative article. Thanks! Since you asked, I have collected both series. In the ATB series, I started with the P issues, then added the bullion versions starting with year two. After a couple additional years, I decided to stop the P purchases and I traded a couple of the P issues with a dealer for the 5 2010 bullion coins. I sold the rest of the P issues on ebay over a couple of years losing big on the early issues but making up for it on the later. Thank goodness for Hawai’i and Maine.
    All in all I made a little over $100 while working my way through the process deciding what I really wanted to do.

    I also bought a couple extras of particular designs during the period silver was bottoming, designs I thought might appreciate and sell later like the Theodore Roosevelt. This is always a gamble but so far these designs appear to be some of the more well liked. One thing is certain, this series presents much better on these 5 oz pucks than they do on the standard quarter size.

    Regarding the QB’s, I have collected both the 2 oz silver issues and the 1 oz gold. Somehow in the flux of life I missed the Griffin gold when it was issued. This has proven to be a difficult coin to get in the after market without a significant premium. That said, one of the online bullion dealers must have obtained a small set of them last year and offered the Griffin without too much mark up so I was eventually successful in filling that void.

  38. CaliSkier says

    BTW, here is the description of the coin on eBay, someone is trying to “sucker punch” an unwary buyer with!

    “2020-W American Gold Eagle Proof 1 oz $50 PCGS V75 Lable POP 1 Of 1
    $4,499.00 Free Shipping“

    By putting a $5,000 price tag on this it seems like it could be the real deal? Nope, just a fancy label for an extra $1,500+!!!

    Read, read, READ! Not once, not twice, but 3 times, before buying off of eBay, especially if you’re relatively new to the hobby or purchasing off eBay!

    Why, because it’s easy to make a mistake and a PITA to deal with after you commit to your purchase. I’ll admit that I almost made numerous mistakes, before purchase when I first started buying off the Bay in 2007/2008.

    In my case I noticed I was getting hooked on the thrill of the chase and research of potential deals; my CC debt was going up, Up and “away”! I found it addicting and pretty much quit buying “cold turkey” from eBay after buying , Way too much for WAY too much!

    Luckily for me the 1 expensive purchase that I was unhappy with, they managed to rule in my favor and I got my money back, however again, it was a PITA.

    Happy hunting for your next find or purchase MNB’ers

    PS The “Tell” on the above 2020 V75 American Gold Eagle, was the the asking price is WAY, WAY, WAY Too low if it were the real deal!

    The real deal will immediately be going for $7,500+ easily IMO? Maybe $10,000+! There will only be 1,945 of something, thousands of numismatists, collectors, speculators, investors, flippers, dealers, around the US and world(?) want and that will be vying for just 1 of these limited edition coins!

    Good luck to any and all, because you’re REALLY going to need it to get one of these coins, no matter why you’re buying?

  39. birddog says

    You have to be really cautious buying a high dollar item such as a coin,was talking to a ebay person sbout a year ago ,scammers will take your money ,empty their PayPal account and you will receive a empty box,he said the FBI investigate these people and they no longer have any IP address and they have been long gone,and a person from Palpay told the same story,and PayPal protection is only up to 10,000 dollars

  40. Larry Gratt says

    Birddog-thanks for your response. This is the same as what I already have. There is a big difference between the SP and MS 5 oz ATBs. The SP versions are under proof in the NGC database. These are frosted and easily obtained in SP 70 grades for all issues. The MS versions are very brillant and are graded by a reflective property with PL (proof like)and DPL (deep proof like) additions. The top grade should be MS 69 DPL for these bullion coins. I believe the coin handling equipment/process that is used for BULLION coins to be significantly different than the SPECIMEN coins such that no MS 70 DPL coins are possible. The confusing terminology may have caused the errors at NGC.

  41. birddog says

    Larry Gratt

    i have 5 pcgs of the first year 2010 bullion pieces

    they are grand canyon ms 69 pl
    hot springs ms 69
    yellowstone ms 69 pl
    mt hood ms 69 dmpl
    yosemite ms 69pl

  42. Numismatrix says

    Larry : “The confusing terminology may have caused the errors at NGC”

    I have no interest in TPG services but generally consider
    NGC when making a slab purchase online for old units. They
    do not command the hyped up prices associated with PCGS.

    However, a while back I purchased a 5 Oz ATB “P” burnished
    unit. I examined it very closely at high mag and it looked
    like a perfect specimen – nice devices, clear field, nice strike –
    so on a whim I sent it to NGC through a local dealer for a grade.
    NGC was having a low cost special ($10-15 per coin) at that time.
    The coin came back SP-67 ??? I looked at it again to make sure it
    was not a switcheroo. It was the same coin. My conclusion :
    be very selective and reserve your trust in these outfits. You can
    lose a lot on so called TPG services.

  43. John Q. Coinage says

    I think the PL BULLION Atbs are actually nicer than the burnished. I got a PSCG pl68 Yosemite that looks 70 but it is so big there’s a lot of place for chatter to hide. I did get a roll of Perry’s Monu,net that all are strong PL.. I don’t see a big point in slabbing less u get a 70 it won’t mean good 💰💰💰later. PCGS has better resale value but NGC is less picky IMHO THUS HIGHER #$

  44. CaliSkier says

    BTW, from the previous thread.

    I’d also like to welcome Nick Z to the blog! There are a lot of different levels of experience, expertise, backgrounds and thoughts, here on MNB. For the most part any and all should feel safe and free to also post your thoughts.

    Hope you’re able to benefit from following along and or bringing your questions and thoughts to the forum.

  45. Birddog says

    A good example of the strict grading difference between NGC and PCGS is the 2011 d U.S. ARMY modern commemorative half dollar.

    That year PCGS had no ms 70 at all only 69 ,NGC has 21 graded 70 (9 early release and 12 plain brown label)

  46. Louis says

    For any Queen’s Beast fans out there, there is a new series that is a kind of successor from the East India Co. in the UK that produces coins for St. Helena with modern takes on classic numismatic motifs as well as tributes to the classics like their trade dollar series. The new series is called the Queen’s Virtues and will feature 6 coins — one issued every 6 months with at the moment just 2 versions – 1 oz silver proof and 1 oz gold proof with very low mintages. They may do bullion versions too later. Their recent Una and the Lion coins were a big hit and have all increased a lot. The first one arrives soon and the art looks great.

  47. CaliSkier says

    Those interested in Mayflower coins, might want to take a look at this Ag 2020 Mayflower Piedfort(doublet thickness/weight) from the Royal Mint? Mintage, only 2,000

    https://www.royalmint.com/our-coins/events/mayflower/400th-anniversary-of-the-voyage-of-the-mayflower-2020-2-pound-silver-proof-piedfort-coin/

    They should in theory sell out soon? Good looking coin and if you don’t own or haven’t held a Piedfort coin, this would be a cool one to have IMO!

    Edge inscription & reeded, both! Says:

    “ The edge inscription reads ‘UNDERTAKEN FOR THE GLORY OF GOD’ – a passage from the Mayflower Compact”

    Eventually IMO, due to “Wokeness” (?) any coin that has God somewhere on it, has limited days ahead? People seem to want to tear down everything and start over?

    All I know is everyone had better have some faith in something besides our Government, AR’s, AK’s and the like? It doesn’t hurt to have the latter 2, the first 1 is currently stale and getting moldy?

    My bet is with God, Faith, and the “Fruit of the Spirit”! However if that doesn’t work, all I’m saying is I’m prepared to defend/fend for family, friends and myself!

    God Bless us all!

  48. CaliSkier says

    For those tracking Available, Unavailable, Available, there were 22, 2020 S ASE’s available this morning for about 15 minutes.

    No 2020 Pd’s, or ATB P 5oz’ers other than Weir.

  49. IJTR says

    I have heard comments before about one grading service being easier than another. Funny but at different times it has flipped back and forth as to which supposedly was the strictest.

    Within one grading service there also have been variations as anyone who has submitted the same coin twice or even multiple times can attest.

    When a group of experts sit down and pass the same coins around the table and get different results it also reminds that subjectivity cannot be converted into a numeric score.

    Don’t really put much faith in grading services other than hopefully to winnow out some of the fakes. Now that we have such authentic looking holders on the market though, one could say that even professional grading of any kind is an exercise in futility.

  50. rapt0r says

    @Numismatrix
    The US coin is pretty ok but I especially like the ship on the British coin.
    The Queens image being on so many of the foreign coins (UK, Canada, Australia, etc) is a turnoff for me thou.
    I get the point, and it’s nothing specific to her, just gets boring.

  51. CaliSkier says

    Louis, I like how they extend the design to the edge of the coin! Also being a shorter series is good! 2,500 mintage these days, seems to right at the edge mintage wise of holding value?

    Again the deal is buy what you like and you shouldn’t be unhappy?

    If buying as an investment or speculation, it could be a while, before a premium or or profit could be taken? Link below to the Ag coin.

    https://www.theeastindiacompany.com/products/2021-victory-1oz-silver-proof-coin/

    Not sure as my collection is probably 85/15 USM/RCM roughly.

    I picked up an 25th(?) Anniversary 5 Oz Kangatoo(very rare) with gold plating and that my only other non US Mint/RCM coin.

    I love spell check, it comes up with some funny things every now and then?

    Of course you all are aware that a “Kangatoo” is a cross between a Kangaroo and a Cockatoo! That why they are so rare! Breeding is while on different continents presents quite a challenge for this screech “Harpy” of a “Beast”!

  52. Birddog says

    IJTR

    I will say about grading ,everybody has opinion, I talked to dealer in Baltimore that had attended a larger show in Las Vegas, this gentleman is mostly a pre 33 gold buyer he told me he had a guy bring him 10 21/2 gold Indians and 7 were fake the guy brought them at a fri night auction somewhere,so this dealer told me when dealing with pre 33 gold you better have it graded ,or you might have a hard lesson like the guy with the Indian gold pieces

  53. Littleman says

    BIRDDOG

    says buy graded pre 33 gold i agree i learned my lesson a couple of years ago i. only buy graded gold now,pcgs or ngc

  54. Nick Z says

    Bird dog,
    Interesting article on the fakes. I had no idea it was that prevalent. What is your take on a big firm like APMEX? Worth using a company like this over eBay? Just for confidence sake?

  55. birddog says

    Nick z

    I been buying pre 33 for a very long time but mine are all graded i have brought from APMEX ,but I usually buy a common date ,but I still buy graded gold ngc or pcgs.my buddy told me that their are so many perfect one dollar fakes that even the pros have trouble unless they are sent to a grading company,but APMEX is a good place to buy

  56. Nick Z says

    Took a look, yes many fakes are gold fakes.
    I have seen you guys say it a few times. Would be very nice if the mint sold bullion direct

  57. John Q. Coinage says

    Always look closely at the center of a coin. Fake US coins have a sharply struck center. Real Eagles au & ag can be balanced on your index finger & tapped with another- real coins have a clean tone non PMs wont. Any pricey pre 33 should be slabbed- PCGS still usually commands a higher price than NGC. 💵

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